If not Howe, then who?

[TheEntertainer]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

I think a lot of that holds true tbh, but I think it's again something in the plus column for a manager that you already know can produce the goods if they're given the opportunity to go again. Personally I do think we're in transition and I've been saying that all season, at the moment we're neither a new team, nor the one we've been. Hopefully next season we'll be fully Howe 2.0 and it'll be just as, if not more successful than Howe 1.0. 

 

This basically:

 

Given what I've seen this season, I don't think Howe can do that, you obviously do. Honestly though I'd much prefer you to be right. 

[500bhp]

22 minutes ago, Skeletor said:

Absolutely massive no to Mourinho. Bloke's the definition of a hasbeen.

 

Not that I want Jose but many people said the same thing about 70(?) year old SBR when he was appointed. 

[mayubeproud]

I'm neutral about Mourinho. He won't be an upgrade over EH. I don't think he'll be disastrous either, if you look at his performance at Man Utd, Tottenham, Roma, Fernabache and Benfica, he has the tendency of performing roughly the same as his predecessors and successors. So he won't make any teams better, but he won't make them worse either. We'll probably need to look for another manager in 18-36 months though.

 

If he is our manager, we'll get much more attention from the media regardless of his performance though, which could be a positive as we can broaden our fan base worldwide and improve on sponsorships and revenue.

[Kid Icarus]

2 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

If we tick all of those boxes with the resources we have under PIF then we shouldn't be finishing lower positions in the league.

 

Comparing Ashley era to now is a flawed exercise. The scenario at the club was completely different in terms of resource and ambition.

 

That's a very easy presumption to make, but I don't think it's as much of an automatic natural consequence as you're laying out there like, not to the extent that we automatically reach the same heights that Howe has or higher anyway. 

 

I wasn't comparing to Ashley, I was comparing to Rafa's ability to not make us mugs but with a ceiling on the success that that brings. Our resources and ambition are still limited now remember, the only difference is that they're not self-imposed. 

[Kid Icarus]

6 minutes ago, TheEntertainer said:

Given what I've seen this season, I don't think Howe can do that, you obviously do. Honestly though I'd much prefer you to be right. 

Given what I've seen from much better managers than Howe (Pep and Klopp being the main two) struggling just as much in identical circumstances, I don't think the problem we're having is unique to Howe or that he uniquely is incapable of navigating it. Not least because the evidence that we have for Howe having to regroup and go again with new teams and get better and better is also there to see. His Bournemouth team went through 3 or 4 versions and styles going through League 2, League 1, and the Championship before they got to their peak in the Premier League. 

 

 

Edited April 16 by Kid Icarus

[Nine]

1 hour ago, andycap said:

Inter Madrid he was great aswell porto winning the champions league isn't to be sniffed at either. 

15-20 years ago

[Kid Icarus]

11 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

@Kid Icarus what does Eddie staying look like? 

 

My biggest actual concern is, we stick with him fully back home with more handpicked signings and he can't turn it around and is binned in October. 

 

I don't think it looks like him having hand-picked signings at all. It's been done to death but the summer window was needs must because we didn't have a DoF, prior to that we had a committee that he was part of. I envisage that committee being re-established with a fresh, data-lead (and I can say with a decent level of confidence based on limited ITK information that this data-lead approach is what Howe has been pushing for for a while and IS now the approach) where we're signing players we're just as confident about being sure-things, but aren't as well-known. 

 

What our style will be, I don't know, PL football in general feels like it's in the trenches at the moment and I'm not sure what comes next - but I think he's our best chance at navigating it largely because of how obsessive and dedicated he is, but mainly because his success speaks for itself. 

[Gawalls]

2 hours ago, SUPERTOON said:

Are you really putting down our cup run last season  we beat the 4 of the top 7 in that run, including the champions. It was harder than most teams runs to any silverware outside of the champions league.

He's not, he's just commenting on the filtering on the why a manager is crap but not on the other side 

[Stal]

Just as an aside, I'm genuinely enjoying the sensible and reasoned discourse going on on this thread. I love this forum.

[r0cafella]

14 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

I don't think it looks like him having hand-picked signings at all. It's been done to death but the summer window was needs must because we didn't have a DoF, prior to that we had a committee that he was part of. I envisage that committee being re-established with a fresh, data-lead (and I can say with a decent level of confidence based on limited ITK information that this data-lead approach is what Howe has been pushing for for a while and IS now the approach) where we're signing players we're just as confident about being sure-things, but aren't as well-known. 

 

What our style will be, I don't know, PL football in general feels like it's in the trenches at the moment and I'm not sure what comes next - but I think he's our best chance at navigating it largely because of how obsessive and dedicated he is, but mainly because his success speaks for itself. 

Aye agree and apologies wasn't trying to dredge up last summer. 

 

I respect and admire your optimism though, I really do, I wish I shared it. 

 

Either way he's a top man and a legend for us. 

[Kid Icarus]

5 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Aye agree and apologies wasn't trying to dredge up last summer. 

 

I respect and admire your optimism though, I really do, I wish I shared it. 

 

Either way he's a top man and a legend for us. 

 

Nothing to apologise for! 

 

I wouldn't say it's that I'm optimistic  I think the club has said things that make me believe he might not be here past the summer, and there are plenty in our fanbase with their knives out for him. It's more that I have faith in Howe and am confident that if he sees this through we'll see (again) how lucky we are to have him as our manager - and I don't think that's anywhere near blind faith in him either, it's predominantly based on the evidence. 

 

 

Edited April 16 by Kid Icarus

[Mills and Boon]

37 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

My expectation would be that a new manager would stop us from chucking away points from decent positions game after game after game.

 

Through the winning attitude he instils in the players, the tactics he employs, the in-game changes. With our financial constraints we need to a wily team, a team that other teams hate playing against. If we get ahead we do everything we possibly can to stay ahead. 

 

We're none of those things. We're a proper fucking soft touch. Soft as clarts. And absolutely predictable too. In how he play and how we capitulate.

 

I feel like Eddie's completely lost his mojo. Maybe he has, or maybe it's just a blip. 

 

 

We were all of those things under Howe though. It was him that instilled that attitude and drive in the squad, because before that under Bruce we genuinely were a clueless, aimless bunch of individuals.

 

Howe made us the team everyone hates to play against, he had Arteta crying his eyes out and Emery rubbing his chin off in confusion and frustration.

 

I've no clue what has happened this season but I doubt he's suddenly started instructing his players to habitually drop a bollock towards the end of matches to throw points away. After a reset this summer and a squad shake up, Howe could drill that grit and determination to hold onto leads back into the lads

[r0cafella]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Nothing to apologise for! 

 

I wouldn't say it's that I'm optimistic  I think the club has said things that make me believe he might not be here past the summer, and there are plenty in our fanbase with their knives out for him. It's more that I have faith in Howe and am confident that if he sees this through we'll see (again) how lucky we are to have him as our manager - and I don't think that's anywhere near blind faith in him either, it's predominantly based on the evidence. 

 

 

 

That's what I wish I had, I wish I had that faith he can turn it around, I don't think it's blind faith either personally it's just I can't get past how poor we've been this season, and I've been waiting for it to get better and it just hasn't and as the season has worn on hes started to look a bit broken and it appears the players aren't taking any notice of him. 

 

I've personally maintained for months now, that if we continue to play poorly and finish around where we are now id part ways with a heavy heart but that's just my take. I do hope it he is to leave it's sorted before our final home game as he deserves a proper send off. I really hope it doesn't ever become vitriolic as he's a class act regardless of his performances. 

[Holmesy]

11 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

We were all of those things under Howe though. It was him that instilled that attitude and drive in the squad, because before that under Bruce we genuinely were a clueless, aimless bunch of individuals.

 

Howe made us the team everyone hates to play against, he had Arteta crying his eyes out and Emery rubbing his chin off in confusion and frustration.

 

I've no clue what has happened this season but I doubt he's suddenly started instructing his players to habitually drop a bollock towards the end of matches to throw points away. After a reset this summer and a squad shake up, Howe could drill that grit and determination to hold onto leads back into the lads

But is it not his job as manager (in the short term at least) to notice that we habitually drop a bollock towards the end of games and do something to mitigate it?
When Dan Burn at LB was an open invitation for everyone to attack us down the right hand side (an invitation they accepted with open arms) Eddie eventually mitigated it by moving Burn to CB, and we looked more solid.
The last time we were wide open in midfield and getting run through consistently, Eddie eventually dropped Tonali into the number 6 role and we started looking more solid.

This isn't a new problem, it's been happening all season. If anyone has seen any signs of Eddie taking action to mitigate it, you've seen something I haven't. And i'm happy to stand corrected. I've no doubt it's a harder problem to solve that the others but Barcelona shut up shop by keeping the ball, tiring us out and picking us off. Couldn't we try something like that? I know it doesn't happen overnight but we have had months to do something.

[Kid Icarus]

19 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

That's what I wish I had, I wish I had that faith he can turn it around, I don't think it's blind faith either personally it's just I can't get past how poor we've been this season, and I've been waiting for it to get better and it just hasn't and as the season has worn on hes started to look a bit broken and it appears the players aren't taking any notice of him. 

 

I've personally maintained for months now, that if we continue to play poorly and finish around where we are now id part ways with a heavy heart but that's just my take. I do hope it he is to leave it's sorted before our final home game as he deserves a proper send off. I really hope it doesn't ever become vitriolic as he's a class act regardless of his performances. 

 

Honestly, part of it for me is remembering how shocking and hilarious it was that Man City were that bad last season when they were in transition and before they spent ungodly amounts of money to add to their already insane squad in January. Best manager in the world, but were absolute garbage and went some daft amount of time never being able to win a match without Rodri playing. Similarly Klopp in his second last Liverpool season. These transitions are painful and very difficult to navigate with immediate success imo. 

 

 

Edited April 16 by Kid Icarus

[Mills and Boon]

2 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

But is it not his job as manager (in the short term at least) to notice that we habitually drop a bollock towards the end of games and do something to mitigate it?
When Dan Burn at LB was an open invitation for everyone to attack us down the right hand side (an invitation they accepted with open arms) Eddie eventually mitigated it by moving Burn to CB, and we looked more solid.
The last time we were wide open in midfield and getting run through consistently, Eddie eventually dropped Tonali into the number 6 role and we started looking more solid.

This isn't a new problem, it's been happening all season. If anyone has seen any signs of Eddie taking action to mitigate it, you've seen something I haven't. And i'm happy to stand corrected. I've no doubt it's a harder problem to solve that the others but Barcelona shut up shop by keeping the ball, tiring us out and picking us off. Couldn't we try something like that? I know it doesn't happen overnight but we have had months to do something.

 

I mean they're individual errors, what exactly is he supposed to do to mitigate them? It's not a systemic problem, there's not a formation or tactic that he can employ which will prevent Botman from pulling a shirt, Thiaw from falling over or the keepers from letting in a soft goal. It's basic stuff that the players are getting wrong that the manager can't legislate for. 

 

I don't think "why doesn't he try playing like Barca?" is a legit strategy mind. We're still limited by the players we have 

[bobbydazzla]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

That's a very easy presumption to make, but I don't think it's as much of an automatic natural consequence as you're laying out there like, not to the extent that we automatically reach the same heights that Howe has or higher anyway. 

 

I wasn't comparing to Ashley, I was comparing to Rafa's ability to not make us mugs but with a ceiling on the success that that brings. Our resources and ambition are still limited now remember, the only difference is that they're not self-imposed. 

The original comment I made wasn’t intended to be that deep. To put it in a simpler way; I want the 22/23 NUFC back and I want it back for the long term. 
 

I don’t really care if it’s Howe or someone else who brings it back, as much as I love Eddie, I support NUFC, not the NUFC manager. 
 

If losing Howe means we get it back, then fine by me. If Howe finds a way to bring it back, then also fine by me.

 

But my opinion is that if Howe was the one capable of doing it, he would have, so I’m erring towards a new manager. But it’s like 49% keep him, 51% thank him for an amazing job and move on. 

 

 

Edited April 16 by bobbydazzla

[TheEntertainer]

Just now, Mills and Boon said:

 

I mean they're individual errors, what exactly is he supposed to do to mitigate them? It's not a systemic problem, there's not a formation or tactic that he can employ which will prevent Botman from pulling a shirt, Thiaw from falling over or the keepers from letting in a soft goal. It's basic stuff that the players are getting wrong that the manager can't legislate for. 

 

I don't think "why doesn't he try playing like Barca?" is a legit strategy mind. We're still limited by the players we have 

Haha, I did think the Barca example was a bit of a stretch, I do think we've obviously had problems all season though and nothing has been done to address them, we aren't dominating games and being done in by silly errors, we're desperately trying to hang on and then being done in silly errors and it's been the case in the second half of games all season. 

[Mills and Boon]

Thinking about Barca though, we were beating them one nowt until Thiaw hung a leg out in the last minute. I blame Thiaw for that, he's too good a player to be making daft mistakes like that and it cost us.

 

I don't point the finger at the manager for it

[r0cafella]

6 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Honestly, part of it for me is remembering how shocking and hilarious it was that Man City were that bad last season when they were in transition and before they spent ungodly amounts of money to add to their already insane squad in January. Best manager in the world, but were absolute garbage and went some daft amount of time never being able to win a match without Rodri playing. Similarly Klopp in his second last Liverpool season. These transitions are painful and very difficult to navigate with immediate success imo. 

 

 

 

I hear you on that city were awful for about 6 months but they still finished 3rd. And the manager they have is one of the most decorated in the history of the game and a tactical innovator and this is where my heart wanting to believe meets my head   

 

And I get it, the flip side is individual errors, games thrown away etc but again as you do, I watch every game and often come away unimpressed with what I've witnessed. 

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way, I doubt any sincere fan wants Eddie not to turn it around and I do think sentiment would change if we saw some green shoots. 

[TheEntertainer]

1 minute ago, bobbydazzla said:

The original comment I made wasn’t intended to be that deep. To put it in a simpler way; I want the 22/23 NUFC back and I want it back for the long term. 
 

I don’t really care if it’s Howe or someone else who brings it back, I support NUFC not the NUFC manager. 
 

If getting rid of Howe means we get it back, then fine by me. 
 

If Howe finds a way to bring it back, then fine by me.

 

My opinion is that if Howe was capable of doing it, he would have, so I’m erring towards a new manager. But it’s like 49% keep him, 51% thank him for an amazing job and move on. 

 

 

 

Almost exactly where I am, but I have more % in the thank him and move on camp than you just because I can't see it working now after the evidence of this entire season. 

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, bobbydazzla said:

The original comment I made wasn’t intended to be that deep. To put it in a simpler way; I want the 22/23 NUFC back and I want it back for the long term. 
 

I don’t really care if it’s Howe or someone else who brings it back, as much as I love Eddie, I support NUFC and not the NUFC manager. 
 

If getting rid of Howe means we get it back, then fine by me. 
 

If Howe finds a way to bring it back, then fine by me.

 

My opinion is that if Howe was capable of doing it, he would have, so I’m erring towards a new manager. But it’s like 49% keep him, 51% thank him for an amazing job and move on. 

 

Well as you say, it's Howe who had it and has shown he can do it, so let's hope he does it again. 

 

That 'Eddie Howe FC supporter' craic is the worst going like.   Makes zero sense. 

[bobbydazzla]

37 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

We were all of those things under Howe though. It was him that instilled that attitude and drive in the squad, because before that under Bruce we genuinely were a clueless, aimless bunch of individuals.

 

Howe made us the team everyone hates to play against, he had Arteta crying his eyes out and Emery rubbing his chin off in confusion and frustration.

 

I've no clue what has happened this season but I doubt he's suddenly started instructing his players to habitually drop a bollock towards the end of matches to throw points away. After a reset this summer and a squad shake up, Howe could drill that grit and determination to hold onto leads back into the lads

I know we were, that’s why it’s infuriating that we’ve become the antithesis of everything Howe’s NUFC initially stood for.

 

We’ve become both stale and soft at exactly the same time. 
 

And sadly, I’ve not seen anything from Howe recently to suggest he can get us back to where we were. And ultimately the buck stops with him for consistent on-field mistakes. 
 

And no-one can say for sure if he can turn it round or not. So whatever NUFC decide to do is a gamble. 

[Kid Icarus]

2 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

I hear you on that city were awful for about 6 months but they still finished 3rd. And the manager they have is one of the most decorated in the history of the game and a tactical innovator and this is where my heart wanting to believe meets my head   

 

And I get it, the flip side is individual errors, games thrown away etc but again as you do, I watch every game and often come away unimpressed with what I've witnessed. 

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way, I doubt any sincere fan wants Eddie not to turn it around and I do think sentiment would change if we saw some green shoots. 

3rd, but from 1st and a drop off of 20 points on their previous season. We're looking at about the same sort of drop off %-wise. 

 

The bit in bold is exactly my point!  If it can happen to him...

[bobbydazzla]

6 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Well as you say, it's Howe who had it and has shown he can do it, so let's hope he does it again. 

 

That 'Eddie Howe FC supporter' craic is the worst going like.   Makes zero sense. 

Plenty of examples across all walks of life where someone has something special and then loses their mojo and never regains it. That’s just human nature. 
 

I hope he can, but I suspect he can’t. 
 

And I wasn’t calling anyone an Eddie Howe FC supporter ya dafty. Stop looking for row. 

 

 

Edited April 16 by bobbydazzla