St James' Park

[Heron]

3 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

You're not taking into account other events which can be held at a new stadium. Unable to do this currently with the size of the entrance /exits into the stadium. The executives said yesterday that the revenue would be double that of SJP. Extending the current stadium would be at a huge cost with very little opportunity for revenue growth. A new stadium is just a no brainer all round.

 

 

 

I am sure there things that can be done to the existing stadium to allow for thing such as concerts tk eb more accessible. I am already aware of some the issues following work on previous concerts.

 

I just don't have faith in this multi-billion pound concept at present in all honesty. A lot of the PR work done with fans seems like lip service to me and whilst it's a welcome change from no communication a lot seems like an exercise in placating the fans enough for them to just crack on with what they were actually going to do anyways.

 

I don't really get anyone singing about how "we got our club back" when we supposedly did after the takeover and this is the reason why. It's not "our club back" it's a new version of it.

 

I'm not convinced by any of it. My heart rules my head on NUFC and my heart tells me this won't be the dream ticket to success nor will it be the continuation/evolution that folk think.

 

We're probably better off investing in fucking the PL over and removing unlawful rules more than anything else at present. Then maybe we can knvest what we like where it matters - on the pitch.

 

I will happily eat my words in the future of they do a good job of it but na, presently it's just not for me.

[Heron]

50 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

I wasn't alluding to fans no longer supporting us, it's more a question of fairness and custodianship. Why should younger fans get the short end of the stick of not enjoying the same privileges as other fans? What is the reason for this? Makes no sense to me at least. 

 

Your kind of looking at the finances from the wrong angle here, it's not about a return when it comes to premier league investments in a P&L sense it's all about the value of the club. According to Forbes City are worth 4b and the UAE have invested 1,7b so those people (not you btw) who claim they are wasting money terrible investment etc are clearly misguided. 

 

So back to the stadium, as we know the stadium is more than just a place we play our home games, it already holds multiple functions such as being our offices, boardroom etc and we know those facilities are also below par, I remember watching the video of the changing room when they "upgraded" and included a warm up area it was truly embarrassing. 

 

With regards to pricing ticket prices will be going up regardless as is the trend In the entire economy, no way of getting around it. I'd actually argue the potential for unsavoury behaviour from the club is increased at SJP as seating areas will be reconfigured and people will be moved to make way. 

 

Acoustics are simple and should be the heart of any design, that being said any atmosphere is created by the fans if they sit in silence for 90 mins then no amount of acoustic engineering will save it.

 

If your building a new stadium things such as singing sections and safe standing sections can be baked in via the design process. 

 

Any additional capacity will obviously be a mix, and as Miller confirmed we can accommodate a lot more people at a new ground, I'm glad the club has come out on record and clarified this point personally but the official acknowledgement that being at SJP will/is holding us back is welcomed by myself. 

 

The history arguement is one which I must admit doesn't make sense to me, because the history doesn't change if we move, nothing which has gone changes we still have our fantastic memories and they can't be taken away. This is a discussion about the figure and not about the past and when you look at it through that Lens the perspective should shift accordingly because the choice is stark. The choice is stagnate in place which will eventually lead to our decline and inability to compete OR push forwards and fight to compete at the highest level with best in class facilities. 

Apologies for losing some chronology/logic here but I'm going to start with your final point...

 

Why not knock all buildings down then in the end? All buildings can be replaced with an evolution of something better in time? I just don't agree with that. Houses are just houses but that is far different from making homes and this (St James' Park) is home to so many people across the generations. It isn't just a building - it's a castle or cathedral at the top of the hill, in the heart of the city and a place of religious pilgrimage or simply fortitude for people of this city.

 

The increased capacity split is anyone's game - it's okay saying we get 30k more seats but how many will be corporate and how will this impact the atmosphere? Will it be of significant financial gain for us to keep up or as intended - to get ahead? It is fair and right to suggest that staying at SJP absolutely wouldn't generate the same revenue though.

 

Acoustics and singing sections and actual consultation with fans is imperative for them get this right otherwise we will have a soulless bowl of silence and with that - the record we have at home more than likely perish.

 

Ticketing issues are just that, they are obviously compounded by the supply and demand factor (and heavily so if Stiflers figures are correct). However, they've repeatedly "consulted" fans and then gone with what they wanted and it's gone to shit loads of times as a result. Maybe if they fixed some of these issues then youngsters would have the opportunity to attend.

 

 

Edited November 22 by Heron

[r0cafella]

 

 

7 minutes ago, Heron said:

Apologies for losing some chronology/logic here but I'm going to start with your final point...

 

Why not knock all buildings down then in the end? All buildings can be replaced with an evolution of something better in time? I just don't agree with that. Houses are just houses but that is far different from making homes and this (St James' Park) is home to so many people across the generations. It isn't just a building - it's a castle or cathedral at the top of the hill, in the heart of the city and a place of religious pilgrimage or simply fortitude for people of this city.

 

The increased capacity split is anyone's game - it's okay saying we get 30k more seats but how many will be corporate and how will this impact the atmosphere? Will it be of significant financial gain for us to keep up or as intended - to get ahead? It is fair and right to suggest that staying at SJP absolutely wouldn't generate the same revenue though.

 

Acoustics and singing sections and actual consultation with fans is imperative for them get this right otherwise we will have a soulless bowl of silence and with that - the record we have at home more than likely perish.

 

Ticketing issues are just that, they are obviously compounded by the supply and demand factor (and heavily so if Stiflers figures are correct). However, they've repeatedly "consulted" fans and then gone with what they wanted and it's gone to shit loads of times as a result. Maybe if they fixed some of these issues then youngsters would have the opportunity to attend.

 

 

 

You will find in the longrun all old buildings will eventually be knocked down mind, it's just a case of when and not if. Clubs move grounds all of the time 

 

obviously any increase in either regular seats or corporate will lead to higher income which will obviously help mind. 

 

We already have a stadium which isn't designed with acoustics in mind and is silent a lot of the time, as I said the stadium is an amplifier of the sound it doesn't create sounds in itself that's on the fans. 

 

You can't fix supply and demand with any ticketing system, we simply don't have the capacity to accommodate all of our fans which for me is a massive shame and I find it truly bizarre people are okay with enjoying a privilege whilst advocating locking others out of said privilege.  

 

I totally understand the apprehension of the unknown and obviously we can make better and more accurate judgements once any plans are unveiled. 

[BonesJones]

One way of looking at this and it's the way I look at it, is if PIF leave down the line and haven't got us a new stadium, would the new owners be able to build anything like what PIF would likely do.

 

Could be a one off opportunity to build a beast of a stadium and kick on to bigger things.

[Whitley mag]

St James’ Park in its current guise just isn’t fit for purpose, sounds like even the architects have said the aesthetics would still look poor even with huge investment. If that’s the case I’d imagine the acoustics would probably be even worse than they are now, not to mention the sight lines which are already shite for circa 15k seats in level 7.

 

A new stadium with a huge single tier stand, window overlooking our great City, great acoustics, sight lines, something which looks spectacular, huge modern concourses, more fans boosting the city’s economy, a chance to cater for all types of fans and create a big singing/standing end and welcome, or not great corporate offerings to grow club.

 

Modern football is shit but it’s never going back to the 80’s and 90’s, we either move with the times, or get left behind.

 

Staying at St James would also destroy any atmosphere which is left, the new Anfield Road end is full of day trippers and corporate, it hasn’t improved Liverpool’s atmosphere one jot and looks very underwhelming when compared to Everton’s new stadium.

 

 

Edited November 22 by Whitley mag

[RS]

Going to be grim as fuck in a half filled flat pack stadium in an industrial estate in camperdown. At least the plastics will

have a new stadium though. 

[JonBez comesock]

10 minutes ago, RS said:

Going to be grim as fuck in a half filled flat pack stadium in an industrial estate in camperdown. At least the plastics will

have a new stadium though. 

That’s the spirit 👌🏻

 

Maybe we get a brand new stadium very close by and its absolutely fantastic , atmosphere improves and we start to win things ? 

[ramirez]

10 hours ago, Wallsendmag said:

 

Tbf Boro sold out every single game for the first few years at the Riverside and they ended up expanding it.

yeah but thats probably due to not bumping up prices like you said, as well as initial relative success if I recall

[Elliottman]

32 minutes ago, RS said:

Going to be grim as fuck in a half filled flat pack stadium in an industrial estate in camperdown. At least the plastics will

have a new stadium though. 

Cry more. 

[Whitley mag]

Much prefer Camperdown to the racecourse as slightly closer for me selfishly.

 

If where heading down this way though just build it on the Links.

[JonBez comesock]

New Capacity (if we do move) has to be 

 

68,387

 

if you know , You know 

[RS]

9 minutes ago, Elliottman said:

Cry more. 

Great name for the new stadium!

[Wallsendmag]

Camperdown would be perfect. I work 5 mins walk away from Camperdown Industrial estate so could finish work at 12 on a Saturday, walk over to Burradon for a few pints then to the match.

[Kid Icarus]

No one who's making the 'more fans should get the chance to go to matches' while also making the 'we need this for PSR' not see how those two things might be at odds with each other?

 

ie fans will have 'access' but many of those who were shut out will now be priced out instead.

[r0cafella]

Just now, Kid Icarus said:

No one who's making the 'more fans should get the chance to go to matches' while also making the 'we need this for PSR' not see how those two things might be at odds with each other?

 

ie fans will have 'access' but many of those who were shut out will now be priced out instead.

No, they aren't at odds at all. It seems your post is based upon the notion prices won't increase to that point at SJP Especially as demand is so high and tickets are so limited. If anything prices should rocket at SJP due to this fact. 

[Nucasol]

6 minutes ago, JonBez comesock said:

New Capacity (if we do move) has to be 

 

68,387

 

if you know , You know 

Going full Bob Murray myself - 75,119 and above plz

[TheBrownBottle]

8 hours ago, Heron said:

I am sure there things that can be done to the existing stadium to allow for thing such as concerts tk eb more accessible. I am already aware of some the issues following work on previous concerts.

I really don’t think that they can.  Expanding the Gallowgate is likely borderline impossible from a constructability perspective; and the East Stand’s footprint would not be changed with a rebuild.  If we stay at SJP we can look to enjoy midtable forever.  

[TheBrownBottle]

21 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

No one who's making the 'more fans should get the chance to go to matches' while also making the 'we need this for PSR' not see how those two things might be at odds with each other?

 

ie fans will have 'access' but many of those who were shut out will now be priced out instead.

They aren’t at odds - vastly expanded corporate takes care of PSR - a bigger stadium makes more cheap seats possible. 

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, RS said:

Going to be grim as fuck in a half filled flat pack stadium in an industrial estate in camperdown. At least the plastics will

have a new stadium though. 

I remember these comments back in ‘90s as well, when we went from 16k average to 33k average in a couple of years, with the new SJP driving that.  And the same again in 2000.

 

The ‘plastics’ / ‘glory seekers’ stuff has been around for decades, and it’s as big a load of bollocks now as it was then.  

[r0cafella]

32 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I remember these comments back in ‘90s as well, when we went from 16k average to 33k average in a couple of years, with the new SJP driving that.  And the same again in 2000.

 

The ‘plastics’ / ‘glory seekers’ stuff has been around for decades, and it’s as big a load of bollocks now as it was then.  

Its a proper grim narrative, us and glory seeking are mutually exclusive at this stage

 

 

Edited November 22 by r0cafella

[Wallsendmag]

I just find the whole narrative that ticket prices will suddenly rocket very bizarre. There's been loads of new build stadiums built in the last 25 years or so and to my knowledge there's only 2 clubs (Arsenal and Spurs) who have hiked up prices. Not a single club outside of London has gone down that route.

 

The other argument is atmosphere. That's another strange one as the atmosphere at SJP isn't exactly great now and we don't even have a proper "home" end. That could change if we could start from scratch.

 

Fact is SJP is far too small and becoming more outdated by the season. Provided we can keep a pretty central location (Leazes Park/Castle Leazes) I can't think of any good reason not to press ahead with a brand new 70k+ state of the art stadium.

[TBG]

[Stifler]

27 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I remember these comments back in ‘90s as well, when we went from 16k average to 33k average in a couple of years, with the new SJP driving that.  And the same again in 2000.

 

The ‘plastics’ / ‘glory seekers’ stuff has been around for decades, and it’s as big a load of bollocks now as it was then.  

Aye, I was looking at our average attendances recently, and I think there is only 2 seasons in our history where we are below the average attendance for the league we were playing in. I also think that was at the height of hooligan problem. All the other seasons we were above average. It’s not bad considering the ownerships we have had in the past, and aside from brief spells in the 50’s and 20’s, we’ve not been a successful team.

You can only go back so far until you start hitting cut numbers in attendances due to cash going straight into people’s pockets, fans sneaking in without paying, and people on the turnstiles just letting in their friends. I know this applies to all clubs as well, and it means the average would also go up, but it just goes to show that demand largely has always been there.

 

SJP increasing in capacity to 52k just changed things to another level. The fact is, Newcastle is, and always has been a football city.

[gjohnson]

A move is the only thing that makes sense.

If we stuck to things purely for history's sake we'd still be in caves rubbing sticks together to make fire.

 

Yes it would be a shame to lose the individuality, but to be fair...and I think this applies to most that haven't had the fortune of seeing a real trophy...St James has generally been a park of misery and disappointment. 

 

There been good times, can't argue with that but I doubt many Man City fans are now crying over moving from Maine Road

 

 

 

[Kid Icarus]

34 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

No, they aren't at odds at all. It seems your post is based upon the notion prices won't increase to that point at SJP Especially as demand is so high and tickets are so limited. If anything prices should rocket at SJP due to this fact. 

 

Before getting onto anything else, it's based on the notion that if your argument is both 'we need a new stadium in order to maximise PSR' (an argument with a lot of flaws in it anyway) and 'we need a new stadium to stop people being locked out' then - based on the evidence of how other clubs have done it - at some point maximising PSR via match tickets will be at odds with unlocking those doors.

 

Mainly though it's a notion just based on the evidence.

 

Ticket prices - including the cheapest tickets - have gone up in price with stadium moves at clubs that have moved. The percentage of cheap seats that are available has also decreased with the exception of West Ham.

 

Our prices have gone up across the board, not just with tickets - Matchday, VIP, merch - and the club has changed the system which seems to have been to the benefit of tourist fans willing to spend more via agents.

 

Re demand and prices sky rocketing,  it's not necessarily about prices rocketing it's about them going up enough that they price people out. Obviously ticket prices at SJP don't rise and fall based on a natural economic system, they're still controlled by the club and you can point to a number of reasons why they haven't massively gone up - price freezes, bad PR, that matchday is negligible in terms of PSR etc.

 

But that leads on to another point -  the club won't want to build a stadium that gives access to all anyway - a bit like having a reserve work force that keeps wages low, they'll want a reserve set of fans who are still locked out and want to get in, in order to keep ticket prices high.