St James' Park

[ponsaelius]

As much as what happened under T Dan is regrettable today it must be remembered through the lense of the time it happened. Progress was the name of the game and many of the pretty older buildings were crumbling or not fit for use in a changing society. Today we'd encourage adaptive re-use and rightly be far, far more careful with what is demolished but back then the economic and social priorities were far more important than that of heritage conservation. Rightly so, you could argue.

 

Flawed as he was I think he did overall want the best for the city. A key example being the housing. A lot of delapitated terraced housing which was cleared at the time for high rise often only happened the way it did because central government would fund slum clearance and rebuild but wouldn't fund renovation of the existing housing stock which was no longer fit for purpose. A case of taking what could be gained from the situation to the betterment of the immediate living outcomes - even if in hindsight it broke apart and atomised existing communities.

[ponsaelius]

5 minutes ago, Sima said:

 

This would be my overwhelming choice and wouldn't need us to relocate.  It shows that even a stadium the size of Wembley would easily fit into the Castle Leazes space.

 

Relocate the green area to where the stadium used to be with possibly some commercial, club office or museum space where the Leazes End currently is.

 

 

 

 

Leazes Park is listed so you couldn't get away with changing/building on that much of it. Move it further north west, sink it, steeper stands to minimise the footprint - and you could build a ground which only slightly encroaches the footprint of the existing listed park. That could be favourable especially if it comes with the carrot of an extended green space towards Strawberry Place and an improved setting for Leazes Terrace.

[madras]

11 minutes ago, Sima said:

 

This would be my overwhelming choice and wouldn't need us to relocate.  It shows that even a stadium the size of Wembley would easily fit into the Castle Leazes space.

 

Relocate the green area to where the stadium used to be with possibly some commercial, club office or museum space where the Leazes End currently is.

 

 

 

What would we need a spare 52k stadium for ? If its not flattened and landscaped at least make the stands a bit more modest allowing views of the new stadium and Leazes Terrace.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by madras

[madras]

6 minutes ago, ponsaelius said:

As much as what happened under T Dan is regrettable today it must be remembered through the lense of the time it happened. Progress was the name of the game and many of the pretty older buildings were crumbling or not fit for use in a changing society. Today we'd encourage adaptive re-use and rightly be far, far more careful with what is demolished but back then the economic and social priorities were far more important than that of heritage conservation. Rightly so, you could argue.

 

Flawed as he was I think he did overall want the best for the city. A key example being the housing. A lot of delapitated terraced housing which was cleared at the time for high rise often only happened the way it did because central government would fund slum clearance and rebuild but wouldn't fund renovation of the existing housing stock which was no longer fit for purpose. A case of taking what could be gained from the situation to the betterment of the immediate living outcomes - even if in hindsight it broke apart and atomised existing communities.

Wasn't much if the issue the poor standard of the housing built to replace the slums, particularly Rye Hill flats etc ?

[TheGuv]

Really have to hope that safe standing takes off in the next few years and then we can hope for more than one person per seat for league games?

[GavMcEl]

couldn't we just follow the plans shepherd had in 07 expand the gallowgate  even keep his plans with a conference  centre etc.... would do for the immediate future, then the more successful we get we can plan expanding further possibly moving etc

[Sima]

17 minutes ago, madras said:

What would we need a spare 52k stadium for ? If its not flattened and landscaped at least make the stands a bit more modest allowing views of the new stadium and Leazes Terrace.

 

 

 

 

We don't, I said relocate the green area to where the stadium used to be.  Unfortunately I'm too much of a lazy bastard to remove SJP from the image.

[Sima]

12 minutes ago, TheGuv said:

Really have to hope that safe standing takes off in the next few years and then we can hope for more than one person per seat for league games?

 

Doesn't make a difference to capacity iirc.  You still need one seat per person.

[TheGuv]

24 minutes ago, Sima said:

 

Doesn't make a difference to capacity iirc.  You still need one seat per person.

That’s why I’m saying hopefully it changes in future more akin to the German model? Isn’t it a double step so you get twice as many in per seat?

[Kid Icarus]

1 hour ago, et tu brute said:

No it’s to give the opportunity for supporters (now and future) to go to games as the demand will increase (it already has). To me the two most important things about the club are the team and then the support. Unfortunately St James’ is not able to cater for the future increased demand to attend games. Everyone would love for it not to be the case, but due to listed buildings it isn’t. I accept some won’t agree though.

 

 

 

 

This is what I mean by the misplaced sense of progress. You really need to be careful what you wish for. You might just find that the things you're willing to sacrifice were actually an essential part of your identity as a Newcastle supporter and the club's identity all along. And by the time you realise something's missing, it'll be too late.

 

Preserving the club's history and uniqueness is as essential to me as a grade 1 listed building is. It really blows my mind that so many are willing to disregard it to potentially become yet another cookie cutter club with a cookie cutter stadium, especially considering the other fanbases who've done the same and now hate it (Arsenal, West Ham, Spurs)

[Sima]

5 minutes ago, TheGuv said:

That’s why I’m saying hopefully it changes in future more akin to the German model? Isn’t it a double step so you get twice as many in per seat?

 

Think you still need the legroom in case you need to sit down so the "depth" of the area wouldn't change.

 

Could be wrong, like.

[Kid Icarus]

Recommend reading ponsaelus's posts in this thread from just after the takeover. A lot of the questions and proposals being put forward now are answered there.

 

https://newcastle-online.org/topic/4883-st-james-park/page/533/?tab=comments#comment-6910681

[LFEE]

 

[nufcjb]

2 hours ago, NE27 said:

 

Ask GIS if we can ground share with them and bring their facilities up to a decent standard?

 

Nothing wrong with GIS stadium as it is like, but can't imagine it ticks many if any boxes for PL?

 

 

 

I have said this since day 1 after the takeover was completed. This is what I would prefer to be honest.

 

We have the resources. Build up GIS up to say 30-40,000 as soon as possible and within the PL standards. We move in for a season or two. Flattened SJP on its current location. Turn it sideways, or dig it down deep or whatever the best engineers in the world, that our Saudis overlords can hire, can think of. Build up a 70-80,000 capacity world class, state of the art stadium on its current land.

 

We go back to play in a new stadium on the sacred land, GIS can either have a reduced capacity or be maintained for other sporting events or clubs to use. Create jobs in the area, we get a new stadium, in the same location, and don't have to move in with the unwashed to groundshare.

[Guest HTT II]

3 hours ago, macphisto said:

You think the attendance would only rise by around 8,000 going from relegation fodder under a detested owner to potentially a situation where we consistently win/challenge for major trophies? I'd say easily 70,000 and use the games where we might not sell out to grow the young fan base with discounted tickets.

We could fill even a 100k stadium for certain games I’m sure, but anything more than 70k on a regular basis and I could see games where there would be a few thousand empty seats even if we were to be mega successful going forward. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by HTT II

[macphisto]

14 minutes ago, HTT II said:

We could fill a 100k stadium for certain game aim sure, but anything more than 70k on a regular basis and I could see games where there would be a few thousand empty seats even if we were to be mega successful going forward. 

I've no doubt you're right about there being occasions where we would not get above 70K but would that not be the time to give discounted tickets to kids? That was one of the worst things of the Keegan era, albeit a smaller ground, a lot of youngsters could not get to see a match. I think you or someone else spoke about this a few weeks back how a lot of kids had to resort to watching matches at the Odeon back then.

 

If we had a top team then I am sure we would sell over 65,000 season tickets if we wanted to. This is a mad region for football. We have been terrible for the last 10+ years and yet still were near full capacity every year and I have to hand it to Sunderland; stuck in Division 3 and yet have higher attendances than 6 or 7 Premier League teams according to an Athletic article today. Our crowds are mind boggling considering the ownership and standard of football.

 

[Guest HTT II]

By the way I’m all for having a bigger capacity, but for me I don’t really care if we don’t have the biggest stadium, highest attendances or even the most modern stadium aesthetically, the atmosphere and match day experience is far more important and on it’s day a 53k sold out SJP is as good as anywhere in the world if not better than anywhere else, made that much more better and satisfying by having our stadium being so central within the City.
 

It’s also a very good experience for visiting fans too, to get off the train and be able to walk to the stadium in minutes, or even fly in and hop on the Metro and be there in 15 minutes, to stay in a City centre hotel and be able to do the same or to drink and eat in and around the ground all within walking distance. We can’t lose that and should do everything we can to make sure we don’t, even if it limits how many more seats we can add.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

1 minute ago, macphisto said:

I've no doubt you're right about there being occasions where we would not get above 70K but would that not be the time to give discounted tickets to kids? That was one of the worst things of the Keegan era, albeit a smaller ground, a lot of youngsters could not get to see a match. I think you or someone else spoke about this a few weeks back how a lot of kids had to resort to watching matches at the Odeon back then.

 

If we had a top team then I am sure we would sell over 65,000 season tickets if we wanted to. This is a mad region for football. We have been terrible for the last 10+ years and yet still were near full capacity every year and I have to hand it to Sunderland; stuck in Division 3 and yet have higher attendances than 6 or 7 Premier League teams according to an Athletic article today. Our crowds are mind boggling considering the ownership and standard of football.

 

Of course, but you’ve got to factor in the overall crowd makeup and I’d rather have a regular 60k + attendance every week like we now get with 53k than lots of 70k + spread around certain fixtures but with a good few 50k + in between as well. Either way, I’m fundamentally against leaving SJP period. 

[macphisto]

1 minute ago, HTT II said:

By the way I’m all for having a bigger capacity, but for me I don’t really care if we don’t have the biggest stadium, highest attendances or even the most modern stadium aesthetically, the atmosphere and match day experience is far more important and on it’s day a 53k sold out SJP is as good as anywhere in the world if not betterand made that much more better and satisfying by having our stadium being so central within the City. It’s also a very good experience for visiting fans too, to get off the train and be able to walk to the stadium in minutes, or even fly in and hop on the Metro and be there in 15 minutes, to stay in a City centre hotel and be able to do the same or to drink and eat in and around the ground all within walking distance. We can’t lose that and should do everything we can to make sure we don’t, even if it limits how many more seats we can add.

I see where you're coming from but I just want us to realise our potential, that is all. People might think I'm delirious but it grates me that we are mentioned in the same breath as West Ham, Villa, Everton, Leicester and other teams of that ilk. We have the potential to be much more than those teams and I see a larger stadium one way of finally cementing our place amongst the top teams in Europe.

 

A lot of the discussion in this thread, I'm not having a go at you, I find similar to Charnley when he said "no player has ever turned us down because of the training ground". I have to be honest I find it small time thinking and people not knowing our true potential; it's sad to see. 

 

A bit off topic, but I also believe it would help to raise aspirations across the region, for too long we have settled for second best in all areas. A 70,000+ crowd every week would give us all so much pride and know that we can go head to head with the best of them in other areas too.

 

 

[macphisto]

7 minutes ago, HTT II said:

Of course, but you’ve got to factor in the overall crowd makeup and I’d rather have a regular 60k + attendance every week like we now get with 53k than lots of 70k + spread around certain fixtures but with a good few 50k + in between as well. Either way, I’m fundamentally against leaving SJP period. 

We get the 50+ now and we're rubbish. I said a minimum of 70,000 so even on "bad" night we'd get about 60,000. I don't see many crowds in the 50,000s if we really took off apart from maybe the odd League cup match. I'm certain we'd sell out every Premier League match.

[Guest HTT II]

7 minutes ago, macphisto said:

I see where you're coming from but I just want us to realise our potential, that is all. People might think I'm delirious but it grates me that we are mentioned in the same breath as West Ham, Villa, Everton, Leicester and other teams of that ilk. We have the potential to be much more than those teams and I see a larger stadium one way of finally cementing our place amongst the top teams in Europe.

 

A lot of the discussion in this thread, I'm not having a go at you, I find similar to Charnley when he said "no player has ever turned us down because of the training ground". I have to be honest I find it small time thinking and people not knowing our true potential; it's sad to see. 

 

A bit off topic, but I also believe it would help to raise aspirations across the region, for too long we have settled for second best in all areas. A 70,000+ crowd every week would give us all so much pride and know that we can go head to head with the best of them in other areas too.

 

 

I’m with you man, me, if we could, fuck it, let’s expand SJP to 80k or whatever, but it’s about pros and cons and I look at Barca and Real and Milan with huge capacities, but I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve seen them play dead rubber games in a half full stadium with flat atmospheres and I look at City and Liverpool who play great football and win major trophies, but don’t have the largest capacities or biggest stadiums. 
 

As for pride, again, aye 70k every week would be special, but I’d get a bigger sense of pride in having a great atmosphere every week over attendance figures which we are getting right now despite being a shit team and with only 4 wins all season. But the biggest pride I get on a match day is knowing we play on the same plot of land as we did when we formed back in the late 1800s and how special it is for our city and even away fans hosting and visiting on a match day. 
 

We won fuck all under KK, would anyone swap a League Cup win for that era? I wouldn’t want to swap a 53k SJP for a 70k new stadium somewhere outside of the city, never ever!

 

I think, given advancements in technology and development and with our resources, we could expand SJP to 60k + and I think that would be more than enough to sell out at that figure every week, anything larger and we’d see regular games with thousands of empty seats. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by HTT II

[Optimistic Nut]

3 hours ago, ponsaelius said:

Out of the city centre is problematic not just because of the loss of character but because transport would be an absolute nightmare. SJP's central location works great because it's so easy for 52k people to filter into and out of the city throughout the day via various forms of transport which naturally route towards the centre anyway. 

 

An out of town stadium, even on a metro stop, with acres of parking (don't think such a site even exists) and with regular direct shuttle buses, would be a nightmare because of the bottleneck of everybody travelling there direct along the same route at 2pm and leaving at 4:50pm. Even much smaller stadiums with much better transport links have this issue.

 

The city centre location is great for the businesses and economy of the city - and vice versa it has also propped up our attendances for years. The location is a major part of the club's character and I'm 100% sure it was one of the things that helped sell the club to Staveley et al. 

 

The ground could be expanded to around 60k in its current form which would be fine for now. Alternatively going back to the 90s plan and building on Castle Leazes while effectively extending Leazes Park down to Strawberry Place would be one of the few ways you could actually enhance the setting and the stadium all at the same time.

Stadium of Light was fucking horrible to get to when I went to the England v Australia game there. Similar to your scenario, it was a perfectly valid Metro Station near the ground, but there were thousands trying to get in there on that one route and same back out.

[Dr Venkman]

22 minutes ago, HTT II said:

I’m with you man, me, if we could, fuck it, let’s expand SJP to 80k or whatever, but it’s about pros and cons and I look at Barca and Real and Milan with huge capacities, but I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve seen them play dead rubber games in a half full stadium with flat atmospheres and I look at City and Liverpool who play great football and win major trophies, but don’t have the largest capacities or biggest stadiums. 
 

As for pride, again, aye 70k every week would be special, but I’d get a bigger sense of pride in having a great atmosphere every week over attendance figures which we are getting right now despite being a shit team and with only 4 wins all season. But the biggest pride I get on a match day is knowing we play on the same plot of land as we did when we formed back in the late 1800s and how special it is for our city and even away fans hosting and visiting on a match day. 
 

We won fuck all under KK, would anyone swap a League Cup win for that era? I wouldn’t want to swap a 53k SJP for a 70k new stadium somewhere outside of the city, never ever!

 

I think, given advancements in technology and development and with our resources, we could expand SJP to 60k + and I think that would be more than enough to sell out at that figure every week, anything larger and we’d see regular games with thousands of empty seats. 

 

 

 

I do think there's a lot to be said for maxing out SJP and just leaving it at that. We may even be able to get up to 65?

[Guest HTT II]

4 minutes ago, Dr Venkman said:

I do think there's a lot to be said for maxing out SJP and just leaving it at that. We may even be able to get up to 65?

That’ should always be the aim, and not moving. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by HTT II

[nufcjb]

Have the owners never been questioned on the stadium? I know they have mentioned the training ground and academy before. Weird if they have never been asked.