José Enrique

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Fair point, I probably agree that Ashley would be happy to see us around our current position for the duration of his ownership.

 

I just hope that the transfer policy (our signings have been generally good) will continue to deliver players that are hungry to play for the club and have some quality, and that Pardew can bond them together into a team that will progress up the league.

 

Who knows, if Ashley starts to see that happening he might remember why he bought NUFC in the first place, because he thought it would be fun.

[JH]

I don't think Ashley has a plan.

 

He can't find the balance between business and football club, and until he does, there will be no real plan and we won't make any real progress.

 

Which is a shame, because between promotion and Hughton's sacking, he was finally starting to turn a few opinions his way with the way things were being run.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I don't think Ashley has a plan.

 

He can't find the balance between business and football club, and until he does, there will be no real plan and we won't make any real progress.

 

Which is a shame, because between promotion and Hughton's sacking, he was finally starting to turn a few opinions his way with the way things were being run.

 

TBF almost nobody gets that balance right. Only the clubs who don't have to worry about finances have a clear position on that.

 

I don't know if Ashley has a plan either, but he does seem to have certain standards of wages and contracts that are emerging. That will dictate how we do on the pitch. If we can come up with some more good value signings we might progress, if not we won't.

[Guest Antec]

I don't think Ashley has a plan.

 

He can't find the balance between business and football club, and until he does, there will be no real plan and we won't make any real progress.

 

Which is a shame, because between promotion and Hughton's sacking, he was finally starting to turn a few opinions his way with the way things were being run.

 

TBF almost nobody gets that balance right. Only the clubs who don't have to worry about finances have a clear position on that.

 

I don't know if Ashley has a plan either, but he does seem to have certain standards of wages and contracts that are emerging. That will dictate how we do on the pitch. If we can come up with some more good value signings we might progress, if not we won't.

 

In theory that sounds great. I'm sure everybody is sick of squadering pots of money on players who aren't even close to being worth it. It's a very fine line though

[merlin]

I'm pretty sure Ashley released a statement saying that buying young promising players developing them and selling them on was his plan.

 

IF that was his plan, he would have been sure to have someone lined up before selling Carroll - the likes of Goodwillie or Van Wolfswinkel come to mind ; if there is nobody with enough potential to replace Carroll(or anyone else)the player shouldn't be sold.

 

If the club goes for Rip Van Winklestein to replace Carroll(as an example), the player's club now know NUFC have megabucks from the Carroll sale and the price goes up by millions....is this sound business, esp when you are forced into recruiting a past-it 34r yr old who was never great in his prime ?

 

No, it looks as if Ashley is just asset-stripping, pure and simple - the proof will be the departure of Enrique and Tiote without adequate 'prospects' being signed to replace them.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I don't think Ashley has a plan.

 

He can't find the balance between business and football club, and until he does, there will be no real plan and we won't make any real progress.

 

Which is a shame, because between promotion and Hughton's sacking, he was finally starting to turn a few opinions his way with the way things were being run.

 

TBF almost nobody gets that balance right. Only the clubs who don't have to worry about finances have a clear position on that.

 

I don't know if Ashley has a plan either, but he does seem to have certain standards of wages and contracts that are emerging. That will dictate how we do on the pitch. If we can come up with some more good value signings we might progress, if not we won't.

 

In theory that sounds great. I'm sure everybody is sick of squadering pots of money on players who aren't even close to being worth it. It's a very fine line though

 

Aye I'm not saying it's easy, and the line that is drawn will always be subject to debate. And fans will no doubt continue to say they would make an exception here and there to keep or sign this player or that player.

 

We seem to be committed to this mindset that bigger spending is always better, and that not making a big net loss from a transfer window is some sort of crime. It's a difficult attitude to change (and TBF it has some merit).

[mrmojorisin75]

the proof will be the departure of Enrique and Tiote without adequate 'prospects' being signed to replace them.

 

this, and how much of the Carroll money is spent, will indeed provide the key to our future

 

i've said it elsewhere but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to enter every fucking window under ashley in a make or break situation

[JH]

How do Spurs do it btw? Does anyone know?

 

I thought they had a wage cap/budget, or did they scap it?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

the proof will be the departure of Enrique and Tiote without adequate 'prospects' being signed to replace them.

 

this, and how much of the Carroll money is spent, will indeed provide the key to our future

 

i've said it elsewhere but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to enter every fucking window under ashley in a make or break situation

 

I'm happy to rethink my position if we do end up selling Tiote and Enrique, letting both of those go would be horrible.

[mrmojorisin75]

We seem to be committed to this mindset that bigger spending is always better, and that not making a big net loss from a transfer window is some sort of crime. It's a difficult attitude to change (and TBF it has some merit).

financially a net profit should not be seen as a crime, personnel-wise a net loss in terms of players and/or talent is absolutely unforgiveable especially when we came back up from the championship with a bit of a deficit to start with

 

the summer window was decent, they threw all they away with the january one for me

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We seem to be committed to this mindset that bigger spending is always better, and that not making a big net loss from a transfer window is some sort of crime. It's a difficult attitude to change (and TBF it has some merit).

financially a net profit should not be seen as a crime, personnel-wise a net loss in terms of players and/or talent is absolutely unforgiveable especially when we came back up from the championship with a bit of a deficit to start with

 

the summer window was decent, they threw all they away with the january one for me

 

I agree with that, the squad is definitely too weak at the moment and we should be looking to strengthen quite a bit.

 

All I would say about january is that it's a very difficult market to operate in, and the Carroll sale was a bit of a freak situation. I don't think it should be taken too much to heart unless it's followed up by another couple of similar ones.

[JH]

the proof will be the departure of Enrique and Tiote without adequate 'prospects' being signed to replace them.

 

this, and how much of the Carroll money is spent, will indeed provide the key to our future

 

i've said it elsewhere but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to enter every f***ing window under ashley in a make or break situation

 

I'm happy to rethink my position if we do end up selling Tiote and Enrique, letting both of those go would be horrible.

 

 

I think the Summer is absolutely key. It's imperative that we improve the squad and hold onto our better players.

[mrmojorisin75]

I think the Summer is absolutely key. It's imperative that we improve the squad and hold onto our better players.

if, IF he wants us to progress - if he's happy to rake in the money from our two best players and try to limp through another season then we all know what'll happen

 

back to square one, what does the fat cunt want?

[Colocho]

the proof will be the departure of Enrique and Tiote without adequate 'prospects' being signed to replace them.

 

this, and how much of the Carroll money is spent, will indeed provide the key to our future

 

i've said it elsewhere but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to enter every f***ing window under ashley in a make or break situation

 

I'm happy to rethink my position if we do end up selling Tiote and Enrique, letting both of those go would be horrible.

 

 

I think the Summer is absolutely key. It's imperative that we improve the squad and hold onto our better players.

 

Assume those better players include Enrique and Tiote?

[JH]

the proof will be the departure of Enrique and Tiote without adequate 'prospects' being signed to replace them.

 

this, and how much of the Carroll money is spent, will indeed provide the key to our future

 

i've said it elsewhere but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to enter every f***ing window under ashley in a make or break situation

 

I'm happy to rethink my position if we do end up selling Tiote and Enrique, letting both of those go would be horrible.

 

 

I think the Summer is absolutely key. It's imperative that we improve the squad and hold onto our better players.

 

Assume those better players include Enrique and Tiote?

 

You assume correctly.

[Stu]

How do Spurs do it btw? Does anyone know?

 

I thought they had a wage cap/budget, or did they scap it?

 

http://images2.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/2972983/Jew-gold.jpg?imageSize=Large&generatorName=Philosoraptor

[Dave]

tbf Stu has it spot on.

 

Given my very public opinion of Keegan, people might think this is a comment that is deliberately looking for a bite. But approaching and hiring Kevin Keegan was the biggest mistake that Ashley made and it's been all downhill from there.

 

I bet the same thing happens with Dalglish at Liverpool. You just don't mess with club legends, because you will never come away from the situation as the favourable party.

 

Agreed, though Ashley did listen to the fans over the Keegan appointment.  He topped many polls as who the fans wanted.  Should remember this was the 1st mangerial appointment most fans agreed with as well since Sir Bob's appointment.

 

Is that right? I remember it being a massive (pleasant) surprise to many after the event, but I genuinely can't remember any clamour for Keegan to return.

[Guest neesy111]

tbf Stu has it spot on.

 

Given my very public opinion of Keegan, people might think this is a comment that is deliberately looking for a bite. But approaching and hiring Kevin Keegan was the biggest mistake that Ashley made and it's been all downhill from there.

 

I bet the same thing happens with Dalglish at Liverpool. You just don't mess with club legends, because you will never come away from the situation as the favourable party.

 

Agreed, though Ashley did listen to the fans over the Keegan appointment.  He topped many polls as who the fans wanted.  Should remember this was the 1st mangerial appointment most fans agreed with as well since Sir Bob's appointment.

 

Is that right? I remember it being a massive (pleasant) surprise to many after the event, but I genuinely can't remember any clamour for Keegan to return.

 

He polled highest in SSN poll for who should be next manager IIRC and quite highly under a chronicle poll as well.  It was a surprise, as many people said they would love for him to comeback, but thought he would not return to the game.

[Stu]

tbf Stu has it spot on.

 

Given my very public opinion of Keegan, people might think this is a comment that is deliberately looking for a bite. But approaching and hiring Kevin Keegan was the biggest mistake that Ashley made and it's been all downhill from there.

 

I bet the same thing happens with Dalglish at Liverpool. You just don't mess with club legends, because you will never come away from the situation as the favourable party.

 

Agreed, though Ashley did listen to the fans over the Keegan appointment.  He topped many polls as who the fans wanted.  Should remember this was the 1st mangerial appointment most fans agreed with as well since Sir Bob's appointment.

 

Is that right? I remember it being a massive (pleasant) surprise to many after the event, but I genuinely can't remember any clamour for Keegan to return.

 

He polled highest in SSN poll for who should be next manager IIRC and quite highly under a chronicle poll as well.  It was a surprise, as many people said they would love for him to comeback, but thought he would not return to the game.

 

Spot on again Neesy (you're on fire this week):

 

Keegan had featured prominently in the betting and came top of a poll in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle, with 42 per cent. Yet because of the hush that had descended on St James', because of the Harry Redknapp dalliance and the noise that was emanating from Blackburn about Mark Hughes, and from France about Didier Deschamps and Gérard Houllier, there was little sense of momentum about Keegan.

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/tyneside-celebrates-as-keegan-leaves-his-circus-for-newcastle-770701.html

 

[johnnypd]

tbf Stu has it spot on.

 

Given my very public opinion of Keegan, people might think this is a comment that is deliberately looking for a bite. But approaching and hiring Kevin Keegan was the biggest mistake that Ashley made and it's been all downhill from there.

 

I bet the same thing happens with Dalglish at Liverpool. You just don't mess with club legends, because you will never come away from the situation as the favourable party.

 

Agreed, though Ashley did listen to the fans over the Keegan appointment.  He topped many polls as who the fans wanted.  Should remember this was the 1st mangerial appointment most fans agreed with as well since Sir Bob's appointment.

 

Is that right? I remember it being a massive (pleasant) surprise to many after the event, but I genuinely can't remember any clamour for Keegan to return.

 

is correct. there was no real clamour for keegan, and it was a huge surprise when he was appointed. i don't think any fan was even thinking of keegan until a Sky camera got him on tv. getting less than half the votes in a single poll with limited voting options hardly represents clamour.

 

i think if you remember on this forum there was next to no talk about him until he was on SSN, and even then the general attitude was split between those completely against it, and those who would rather look elsewhere, but certainly wouldn't be averse to it, and would consider him better than the likes of mark hughes etc.

[Guest neesy111]

tbf Stu has it spot on.

 

Given my very public opinion of Keegan, people might think this is a comment that is deliberately looking for a bite. But approaching and hiring Kevin Keegan was the biggest mistake that Ashley made and it's been all downhill from there.

 

I bet the same thing happens with Dalglish at Liverpool. You just don't mess with club legends, because you will never come away from the situation as the favourable party.

 

Agreed, though Ashley did listen to the fans over the Keegan appointment.  He topped many polls as who the fans wanted.  Should remember this was the 1st mangerial appointment most fans agreed with as well since Sir Bob's appointment.

 

Is that right? I remember it being a massive (pleasant) surprise to many after the event, but I genuinely can't remember any clamour for Keegan to return.

 

is correct. there was no real clamour for keegan, and it was a huge surprise when he was appointed. i don't think any fan was even thinking of keegan until a Sky camera got him on tv. getting less than half the votes in a single poll with limited voting options hardly represents clamour.

 

i think if you remember on this forum there was next to no talk about him until he was on SSN, and even then the general attitude was split between those completely against it, and those who would rather look elsewhere, but certainly wouldn't be averse to it, and would consider him better than the likes of mark hughes etc.

 

See Stu's post.  Keegan was massively wanted by NUFC fans.

[Dave]

I was completely against it at the start. ITK.

[UV]

How many Premier League clubs have disappeared due to financial problems? None. Only one has ever gone into administration and they were punching way above their weight to start with.

 

The club's finances were in a poor state when Ashley arrived but some go way overboard with it IMO.

 

And also partly base their beliefs on statements released by the Ashley regime after it first took over. They seemed credible enough people at the time, but in light of subsequent events, these claims should also be revisited...  Not saying they weren't bad, they clearly were, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that point was spun to breaking point.

 

As I recall a number of the debts were called in due to the change in ownership, which obviously would make things look worse. I'm not saying the cash injection wasn't very welcome, but talk of the club not existing is laughable.

 

Yep, that's right. Even if some find it laughable, we had favourable loans based upon debtors having faith in our old administration. For whatever reason (not trying to criticise in this instance), they withdrew their credit when Ashley bought us.

 

Sorry but that is a very glib dismissal of the poor financial legacy of our previous owners. I've spouted long and hard on this subject elsewhere on this board. Not going to do so again - especially on a Jose Enrique thread  

 

? It's true. Our structured debts suddenly got toploaded due to a security clause, when that happens by surprise it's liable to make any situation worse than it was before. You don't need to preach to me about problems the old regime did have, though, I'm converted.

 

I really didn't want to go into this but:

 

Structured debt is fine whilst you are generating positive cash flows and can meet the loan repayments that are in the structure, and the interest payments due on the loans. During 2007 the club was not generating positive cash flows so fresh funding was needed. There was nothing left to borrow against as all the clubs assets and future revenue streams had already been used as collateral (in the case of the training ground it had been used twice). The interest rates on the loans were extortionate reflecting the risk perceived by the lenders.

 

The club's balance sheet showed an insolvent position which in itself would have given rise to the issue of whether accounts could be prepared with the club being a going concern. In order for the accounts to be prepared on a going concern basis the auditors would require proof that the club could continue trading for the foreseeable future, and this is in a scenario where cash flows are negative, fresh finance is needed and there are no assets to borrow against. In the end Ashley gave an undertaking to keep it going and provide whatever finance was needed - and so the 2007 accounts were prepared on a going concern basis. If he hadn't been around to do that can we assume that the previous majority shareholders would have given that undertaking? And btw once a set of accounts are given a going concern qualification (let alone are not prepared on a going concern basis) structured creditors have a right to foreclose.  

 

Not certain administration but it was certainly worthy of concern.

 

To better understand, I'd like to get some definitive answers to the following questions.

 

1) What was the size of the negative cash flow in 2007?

 

2) What was the size of the increased TV revenue in 2008?

 

3) Can you explain the following note from the accounts considering we had no remaining assets to borrow against:

 

At the beginning of 2007 the Group began work on a major refinancing project which was due to be in place by 30 June 2007. However following the acquisition of the Company on 15 June 2007 by SJHL, this project was aborted and the costs incurred to date which would, had the project gone ahead as planned, have been amortised over the period of the new finance have been written off in full in the year."

 

4) What was the accounting valuation of the playing staff in 2007 which is part of the valuation of the club leading to the insolvent position? Considering we have subsequently sold players on the playing staff in 2007 for around £90m in transfer fees do you consider the accounting valuation of the playing staff of a football club to typically be an accurate figure? Should an insolvent trading position be reached is it out of the question to revalue a company's assets?

 

5) The typical mortgage rate in 2007 was 6.5%. What do you consider an "extortionate" business rate of interest at the time, and how much of the club debt was over that rate?

 

6) What was the actual size of the debt when Ashley bought the club? How much more into debt had the club spiralled since 2001 when the stadium expansion was complete?

 

7) What precisely was withheld from the publicly available 2006 accounts and only available on due diligence which would cause someone to pay the equivalent of £200m (price + debt) for a business which most now consider it was obvious to see was shortly destined for administration, and could therefore have been very soon picked up for a fraction of that value?

[UV]

How do Spurs do it btw? Does anyone know?

 

I thought they had a wage cap/budget, or did they scap it?

 

It's a mystery

 

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/2006-2011.html

 

It's almost as if they spend lots of money on transfers to improve the team, thus improving revenue through higher league position, better performance in cups and Europe, increased support, bigger sponsorships, etc

 

It's almost like that, but it can't be because that way doesn't work.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

How do Spurs do it btw? Does anyone know?

 

I thought they had a wage cap/budget, or did they scap it?

 

It's a mystery

 

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/2006-2011.html

 

It's almost as if they spend lots of money on transfers to improve the team, thus improving revenue through higher league position, better performance in cups and Europe, increased support, bigger sponsorships, etc

 

It's almost like that, but it can't be because that way doesn't work.

 

That's fine as long as you spend the money on good players who can help you to higher league positions, and nobody else spends more, better, to finish above you.