Racism in football

[Guest palnese]

Uriah Rennie was one of the worst refs in the history of the game.

[Incognito]

Lack of black managers is scandalous tbh, captains is a different argument, less obvious at least

 

black refs and linesmen too.

 

Uriah Rennie set back the race argument decades with his ineptitude

[Mike]

The manager thing has not been helped by having Paul Ince and John Barnes be absolute shite at management.

 

Decent point. It's not as if the same absolutely terrible group of white managers don't hop from club to club. Plus all the white refs are top notch. We even have a thread about how good they are.

 

If a few bad black managers mean no one else gets to try, then something needs to be done. Sam Allardyce keeps getting fucking hired.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If a couple of black managers being shite has any bearing at all on others being given a fair chance we have serious problems.

[thomas]

Lack of black managers is scandalous tbh, captains is a different argument, less obvious at least

 

Not sure about the manager thing, it is brought up a lot but it would be interesting to know how many qualified black people go for managerial roles to get some perspective.

And then peeling the onion back a little further it'd be interesting to know if there's an undercurrent of veiled racism that runs through football that keeps black people from getting those qualifications in the first place through dissuasion or intimidation or just plain ignorance.

 

I assume anyone can take these exams etc.. and if there was any dissuasion it would be a massive story already as someone would have spoken out by now.

The problem is that taken individually, you can explain away any specific incident of dissuasion as being specific to that player/ex-player. Or any incident where the development/encouragement of non-black players was given higher priority.

 

But taken as a whole, looking at a pattern of it over time, the preference/encouragement given to other people by everyone at all levels, it becomes harder to hand-wave away. And establishing - researching, talking to ex players/coaches - takes a while. 

 

So no, just because it hasn't been a story yet doesn't mean it doesn't happen. What a ludicrous thing to suggest.

 

edit: to clarify I'm suggesting this as a possibility, not as something that definitely happens. I don't think it can be dismissed as an idea solely on the back of no exposes in the rags about it.

 

Also think if it was a case of racist old football club owners there would be a bit of xenophobia chucked in yet the Premier League is made up of -

Oh there would be? Why? racism != xenophobia and nationality != skin tone.

[Cajun]

Lack of black managers is scandalous tbh, captains is a different argument, less obvious at least

 

Not sure about the manager thing, it is brought up a lot but it would be interesting to know how many qualified black people go for managerial roles to get some perspective.

And then peeling the onion back a little further it'd be interesting to know if there's an undercurrent of veiled racism that runs through football that keeps black people from getting those qualifications in the first place through dissuasion or intimidation or just plain ignorance.

 

I assume anyone can take these exams etc.. and if there was any dissuasion it would be a massive story already as someone would have spoken out by now.

The problem is that taken individually, you can explain away any specific incident of dissuasion as being specific to that player/ex-player. Or any incident where the development/encouragement of non-black players was given higher priority.

 

But taken as a whole, looking at a pattern of it over time, the preference/encouragement given to other people by everyone at all levels, it becomes harder to hand-wave away. And establishing - researching, talking to ex players/coaches - takes a while. 

 

So no, just because it hasn't been a story yet doesn't mean it doesn't happen. What a ludicrous thing to suggest.

 

edit: to clarify I'm suggesting this as a possibility, not as something that definitely happens. I don't think it can be dismissed as an idea solely on the back of no exposes in the rags about it.

 

Also think if it was a case of racist old football club owners there would be a bit of xenophobia chucked in yet the Premier League is made up of -

Oh there would be? Why? racism != xenophobia and nationality != skin tone.

 

The courses are taken by an individual aren't they? So how can they be discouraged? Is there any evidence that black people have been turned refused from taking the courses?

 

The second point is just my experience of racists, like the whole "These fucking Polish coming over here, taking our jobs" shite, most of those are white. Those ignorant against skin tone generally tend to be ignorant of any remotely different to them, again this is just my experience.

 

Vaguely taking on Mike's point, a lot of managers have been the same old shite floating around for years. Maybe there is a prejudice against black people and management but I haven't seen any evidence of it. It would be the same as someone claiming discrimination against Australians managing in the Premier league

[B-more Mag]

When reading threads like this I have to remind myself that the European experience with race has been a lot different than the U.S.'s. Otherwise I start getting too wound up for my own good.

[DJ_NUFC]

I get wound up by almost all topics when race is discussed on N-O. So now I stay away from these topics on here. Ironic as I started this thread

 

The few posts above pointing out how badly one or two black managers have done when given the chance, and Uriah Rennie, are so shamefully ignorant that in any other walk of like that's what discrimination looks and sounds like.

 

 

[newsted]

I get wound up by almost all topics when race is discussed on N-O. So now I stay away from these topics on here. Ironic as I started this thread

 

The few posts above pointing out how badly one or two black managers have done when given the chance, and Uriah Rennie, are so shamefully ignorant that in any other walk of like that's what discrimination looks and sounds like.

 

 

 

I do this, except for now. Ironically

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

Out of interest, which black former players have come out and expressed a real interest to go into coaching/management?

 

As for the captain side of things, Sol Campbell was never the appointed captain of Arsenal was he?  You could argue that's why he never captained England.  I know it doesn't excuse Owen being given it instead, but it's a valid point.

[jdckelly]

Campbell's got a point on the Owen thing (ugh the fact that cunt was ever club captain here keegan man love you but what were you thinking) as for the management thing its really hard to tell from the outside looking in and not knowing the ins and outs of how a manager is chosen but the entire system in England seems broken, clubs don't seem to conduct a wide range of interviews and its partly down to the ego's of the managers in questions about having to go for an interview and other clubs not liking the idea of their manager being interviewed for another job. Just seems to be whose agent can sell their guy the best which is a bloody stupid way of doing things and it should be no surprise at the turnover of managers. I'd like to know the numbers of former black players (or ones still playing) who go for their coaching badges, is Campbell going for his?

[DJ_NUFC]

I think the argument goes both ways, at least where captaincy is concerned. He probably had a point but the way he's made it comes across as heavy handed.

 

Not being English, I'm guessing his assertion is that SOME English people (former managers, the FA or the fans) cannot imagine seeing England led by anyone who is non-white in a major tournament.

 

Not having lived in England for that long, the question is, how valid is that assertion?

 

We all know world history and most of us who have thrown a passing glance at the history of discrimination and racism understand how certain organizations end up creating discriminatory environments over time.

 

Is the FA and the England camp part of this? I don't know. Certainly the lack of black managers and referees points towards this, going strictly by historical evidence.

 

The captaincy thing on the other hand, I truly have no idea.

[Parky]

I think the argument goes both ways, at least where captaincy is concerned. He probably had a point but the way he's made it comes across as heavy handed.

 

Not being English, I'm guessing his assertion is that SOME English people (former managers, the FA or the fans) cannot imagine seeing England led by anyone who is non-white in a major tournament.

 

Not having lived in England for that long, the question is, how valid is that assertion?

 

We all know world history and most of us who have thrown a passing glance at the history of discrimination and racism understand how certain organizations end up creating discriminatory environments over time.

 

Is the FA and the England camp part of this? I don't know. Certainly the lack of black managers and referees points towards this, going strictly by historical evidence.

 

The captaincy thing on the other hand, I truly have no idea.

 

Main problem is that the FA is predominantly filled with old white men. Old white men are statistically proven to be evil.

[Mike]

When reading threads like this I have to remind myself that the European experience with race has been a lot different than the U.S.'s. Otherwise I start getting too wound up for my own good.

 

Tim Howard.jpg

[Guest Howaythetoon]

The whole coach and managerial appointments in our game is about who you know not what you know, look at Sherwood he is manager of Spurs despite having no credentials, experience or anything. This is why failed managers continue to pick up jobs too. Its kind of a closed shop and unless you're extremely high profile (Ince) or been around for a long time (Hughton) then you are going to struggle to get a foot in the door whatever your skin colour.

 

I don't think the reason why black coaches or would be managers are not getting jobs is because everyone is racist, I think its a percentages thing more than anything, and of course the closed shop thing. How many ex black footballers get into coaching and want to be managers? Obviously there is always going to be more white managers than black managers and with it coaches too because there are more white people in the sport. In 10 or so years though I'd expect or like to think black people and indeed other ethnicity are more represented in managerial and coaching roles. Campbell has always came across as having a chip on his shoulder.

[triggs]

The manager thing has not been helped by having Paul Ince and John Barnes be absolute s**** at management.

 

Decent point. It's not as if the same absolutely terrible group of white managers don't hop from club to club. Plus all the white refs are top notch. We even have a thread about how good they are.

 

If a few bad black managers mean no one else gets to try, then something needs to be done. Sam Allardyce keeps getting f***ing hired.

To be fair Sam Allardyce isn't that bad a manager in general, did well with everybody apart from us

[baby got back]

Sol Campbell is qualified to manage at League 1/2 level. It does surprise me that he hasn't got a job if that is his intention.

[Parky]

When reading threads like this I have to remind myself that the European experience with race has been a lot different than the U.S.'s. Otherwise I start getting too wound up for my own good.

The whole coach and managerial appointments in our game is about who you know not what you know, look at Sherwood he is manager of Spurs despite having no credentials, experience or anything. This is why failed managers continue to pick up jobs too. Its kind of a closed shop and unless you're extremely high profile (Ince) or been around for a long time (Hughton) then you are going to struggle to get a foot in the door whatever your skin colour.

 

I don't think the reason why black coaches or would be managers are not getting jobs is because everyone is racist, I think its a percentages thing more than anything, and of course the closed shop thing. How many ex black footballers get into coaching and want to be managers? Obviously there is always going to be more white managers than black managers and with it coaches too because there are more white people in the sport. In 10 or so years though I'd expect or like to think black people and indeed other ethnicity are more represented in managerial and coaching roles. Campbell has always came across as having a chip on his shoulder.

 

Good post. The old boys network plays a part no doubt, but there is an element of the 'old establishment' at play with regards to the FA. Yes I've said it in code.

[The College Dropout]

Are there 3 white defenders/midfielders with as many caps as Cole, Ferdinand & Campbell that have amassed as little England captain caps?

 

I would think Scholes, Neville.. couldn't think of a third.

 

He has a point - especially in light of the Mickey O. But he's not all the way right.

 

And tbh any old institution in the UK is going to be tinged in a bit of racism. Some worse than others.

[The College Dropout]

Don't get me wrong, I am all for racism being stamped out, but I just think the line between banter and racism/abuse is getting a Greyer area with too many campaigns or groups trying to justify themselves rather than have a bit of sense.

 

Can you give an example?

 

Off the top of my head, you have the Steven Taylor incident.

You then have things like the Andy Carroll incident where they were saying he was a gypsy and one national reporter said it was racist or something.

Potentially, you have this Anelka incident.

 

There are probably a lot more but I cannot be arsed to find them all...

 

Stephen Taylor was pure ignorance, but footballers with their massive public profile need to know better

 

That's a poor excuse.

[The College Dropout]

Just remembered he played for us.

Same.

[The College Dropout]

He wasn't England captain, nor is he a manager because he's an absolute t***. Not because he's black.

 

Tbf, former black players seemingly being denied the opportunity to manage/coach is a bit of a thing in just about every sport save the NBA.

 

How many black managers are there in the Football League? Hughton and Chris Powell?

 

Is Terry Connor still managing somewhere?

 

There aren't many but I'd be stunned if that was because they'd been discriminated against. It just so happens that a lot of the black managers have been hopeless or the ex-players a bit, erm, strange.

 

Thinking back to old England teams - Ince (s****), Campbell (one crayon short of a full box), Davjd James (on tv), Heskey (no comment), Sinclair, Ian Wright, Darius Vassell,Carlton Palmer

 

Sol Campbell can't be telling me that is a list of high calibre potential managers just not getting the chance.

 

How many British managers in the Championship where players of any note? I mean... Alan Pardew ffs. Tony Pulis. Gary Monk.

 

When I think of black British managers.. a couple where top-rate players (Barnes, Ince), another did a great job as interim manager for a long time (that's basically Hughts) and another a club legend (Powell).

 

Your big name argument is weak.

[KaKa]

I always wondered why the Jamaican's don't push for more of these guys to play for them, they would be really good.

 

The reality is the English are always going to identify more with a John Terry than a Sol Campbell. It's just the reality.

 

If these guys want that level of recognition and respect they should play for their parent's countries, and encourage more to do so. They'd be a talented team.

 

Don't know if you guys saw the documentary of Drogba going back to the Ivory Coast last summer. My goodness. He's like a king back home. It was special.

 

[ponsaelius]

Are you assuming every black player to play for England is of Jamaican parentage?

[Incognito]

Are you assuming every black player to play for England is of Jamaican parentage?

 

They choose England of their own accord badumtish.