Racism in football

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

Out of interest, which black former players have come out and expressed a real interest to go into coaching/management?

 

As for the captain side of things, Sol Campbell was never the appointed captain of Arsenal was he?  You could argue that's why he never captained England.  I know it doesn't excuse Owen being given it instead, but it's a valid point.

[jdckelly]

Campbell's got a point on the Owen thing (ugh the fact that cunt was ever club captain here keegan man love you but what were you thinking) as for the management thing its really hard to tell from the outside looking in and not knowing the ins and outs of how a manager is chosen but the entire system in England seems broken, clubs don't seem to conduct a wide range of interviews and its partly down to the ego's of the managers in questions about having to go for an interview and other clubs not liking the idea of their manager being interviewed for another job. Just seems to be whose agent can sell their guy the best which is a bloody stupid way of doing things and it should be no surprise at the turnover of managers. I'd like to know the numbers of former black players (or ones still playing) who go for their coaching badges, is Campbell going for his?

[DJ_NUFC]

I think the argument goes both ways, at least where captaincy is concerned. He probably had a point but the way he's made it comes across as heavy handed.

 

Not being English, I'm guessing his assertion is that SOME English people (former managers, the FA or the fans) cannot imagine seeing England led by anyone who is non-white in a major tournament.

 

Not having lived in England for that long, the question is, how valid is that assertion?

 

We all know world history and most of us who have thrown a passing glance at the history of discrimination and racism understand how certain organizations end up creating discriminatory environments over time.

 

Is the FA and the England camp part of this? I don't know. Certainly the lack of black managers and referees points towards this, going strictly by historical evidence.

 

The captaincy thing on the other hand, I truly have no idea.

[Parky]

I think the argument goes both ways, at least where captaincy is concerned. He probably had a point but the way he's made it comes across as heavy handed.

 

Not being English, I'm guessing his assertion is that SOME English people (former managers, the FA or the fans) cannot imagine seeing England led by anyone who is non-white in a major tournament.

 

Not having lived in England for that long, the question is, how valid is that assertion?

 

We all know world history and most of us who have thrown a passing glance at the history of discrimination and racism understand how certain organizations end up creating discriminatory environments over time.

 

Is the FA and the England camp part of this? I don't know. Certainly the lack of black managers and referees points towards this, going strictly by historical evidence.

 

The captaincy thing on the other hand, I truly have no idea.

 

Main problem is that the FA is predominantly filled with old white men. Old white men are statistically proven to be evil.

[Mike]

When reading threads like this I have to remind myself that the European experience with race has been a lot different than the U.S.'s. Otherwise I start getting too wound up for my own good.

 

Tim Howard.jpg

[Guest Howaythetoon]

The whole coach and managerial appointments in our game is about who you know not what you know, look at Sherwood he is manager of Spurs despite having no credentials, experience or anything. This is why failed managers continue to pick up jobs too. Its kind of a closed shop and unless you're extremely high profile (Ince) or been around for a long time (Hughton) then you are going to struggle to get a foot in the door whatever your skin colour.

 

I don't think the reason why black coaches or would be managers are not getting jobs is because everyone is racist, I think its a percentages thing more than anything, and of course the closed shop thing. How many ex black footballers get into coaching and want to be managers? Obviously there is always going to be more white managers than black managers and with it coaches too because there are more white people in the sport. In 10 or so years though I'd expect or like to think black people and indeed other ethnicity are more represented in managerial and coaching roles. Campbell has always came across as having a chip on his shoulder.

[triggs]

The manager thing has not been helped by having Paul Ince and John Barnes be absolute s**** at management.

 

Decent point. It's not as if the same absolutely terrible group of white managers don't hop from club to club. Plus all the white refs are top notch. We even have a thread about how good they are.

 

If a few bad black managers mean no one else gets to try, then something needs to be done. Sam Allardyce keeps getting f***ing hired.

To be fair Sam Allardyce isn't that bad a manager in general, did well with everybody apart from us

[baby got back]

Sol Campbell is qualified to manage at League 1/2 level. It does surprise me that he hasn't got a job if that is his intention.

[Parky]

When reading threads like this I have to remind myself that the European experience with race has been a lot different than the U.S.'s. Otherwise I start getting too wound up for my own good.

The whole coach and managerial appointments in our game is about who you know not what you know, look at Sherwood he is manager of Spurs despite having no credentials, experience or anything. This is why failed managers continue to pick up jobs too. Its kind of a closed shop and unless you're extremely high profile (Ince) or been around for a long time (Hughton) then you are going to struggle to get a foot in the door whatever your skin colour.

 

I don't think the reason why black coaches or would be managers are not getting jobs is because everyone is racist, I think its a percentages thing more than anything, and of course the closed shop thing. How many ex black footballers get into coaching and want to be managers? Obviously there is always going to be more white managers than black managers and with it coaches too because there are more white people in the sport. In 10 or so years though I'd expect or like to think black people and indeed other ethnicity are more represented in managerial and coaching roles. Campbell has always came across as having a chip on his shoulder.

 

Good post. The old boys network plays a part no doubt, but there is an element of the 'old establishment' at play with regards to the FA. Yes I've said it in code.

[The College Dropout]

Are there 3 white defenders/midfielders with as many caps as Cole, Ferdinand & Campbell that have amassed as little England captain caps?

 

I would think Scholes, Neville.. couldn't think of a third.

 

He has a point - especially in light of the Mickey O. But he's not all the way right.

 

And tbh any old institution in the UK is going to be tinged in a bit of racism. Some worse than others.

[The College Dropout]

Don't get me wrong, I am all for racism being stamped out, but I just think the line between banter and racism/abuse is getting a Greyer area with too many campaigns or groups trying to justify themselves rather than have a bit of sense.

 

Can you give an example?

 

Off the top of my head, you have the Steven Taylor incident.

You then have things like the Andy Carroll incident where they were saying he was a gypsy and one national reporter said it was racist or something.

Potentially, you have this Anelka incident.

 

There are probably a lot more but I cannot be arsed to find them all...

 

Stephen Taylor was pure ignorance, but footballers with their massive public profile need to know better

 

That's a poor excuse.

[The College Dropout]

Just remembered he played for us.

Same.

[The College Dropout]

He wasn't England captain, nor is he a manager because he's an absolute t***. Not because he's black.

 

Tbf, former black players seemingly being denied the opportunity to manage/coach is a bit of a thing in just about every sport save the NBA.

 

How many black managers are there in the Football League? Hughton and Chris Powell?

 

Is Terry Connor still managing somewhere?

 

There aren't many but I'd be stunned if that was because they'd been discriminated against. It just so happens that a lot of the black managers have been hopeless or the ex-players a bit, erm, strange.

 

Thinking back to old England teams - Ince (s****), Campbell (one crayon short of a full box), Davjd James (on tv), Heskey (no comment), Sinclair, Ian Wright, Darius Vassell,Carlton Palmer

 

Sol Campbell can't be telling me that is a list of high calibre potential managers just not getting the chance.

 

How many British managers in the Championship where players of any note? I mean... Alan Pardew ffs. Tony Pulis. Gary Monk.

 

When I think of black British managers.. a couple where top-rate players (Barnes, Ince), another did a great job as interim manager for a long time (that's basically Hughts) and another a club legend (Powell).

 

Your big name argument is weak.

[KaKa]

I always wondered why the Jamaican's don't push for more of these guys to play for them, they would be really good.

 

The reality is the English are always going to identify more with a John Terry than a Sol Campbell. It's just the reality.

 

If these guys want that level of recognition and respect they should play for their parent's countries, and encourage more to do so. They'd be a talented team.

 

Don't know if you guys saw the documentary of Drogba going back to the Ivory Coast last summer. My goodness. He's like a king back home. It was special.

 

[ponsaelius]

Are you assuming every black player to play for England is of Jamaican parentage?

[Incognito]

Are you assuming every black player to play for England is of Jamaican parentage?

 

They choose England of their own accord badumtish.

[KaKa]

Are you assuming every black player to play for England is of Jamaican parentage?

 

Sol Campbell is isn't he? Hence why I referred to Jamaicans specifically.

 

Those with parents from other nations should consider it too, as they will always get more recognition and adulation from them. If of course it means that much to you.

 

There's no point playing for England and expecting to be treated exactly the same. I just don't know how likely it is you will ever be afforded that.

 

They have to weigh up exactly how much it means to them, and then make a decision really.

[The College Dropout]

Eh?

 

What are you talking about? Are you trying to compare someone born and raised in his home country with black British players? We are at the stage where some of the lads of caribbean ancestry won't even qualify for those nations over the next decade.

[KaKa]

Eh?

 

What are you talking about? Are you trying to compare someone born and raised in his home country with black British players? We are at the stage where some of the lads of caribbean ancestry won't even qualify for those nations over the next decade.

 

Not sure I understand what you mean.

 

How will they not qualify for those nations?

[The College Dropout]

I know black people in their 30's and 40's whose parents where born in the UK. Soon their children will be professional footballers and it would only be the footballers great grandparents that where born outside the UK.

 

I'm sure plenty of players coming through now only have grandparents born outside the UK. Why should they play for bloody Trinidad & Tobago?

[KaKa]

Um, because that's their heritage? Not sure what you're trying to insinuate. Are you saying that over time they become less Trinidadian?

 

There's a wide range of experiences in how they're ultimately brought up, yes. Some will still be raised very much within that culture, while others may not be. I have friends whose parents have been here since school, and were ultimately raised here, and still identify more as Nigerians than English.

 

My point is that if like Campbell you feel such an outsider then don't play for England.

 

 

[The College Dropout]

Nationality is a fluid concept. Generally after 4-5 generations in another country, people develop hybrid communities and culture.

 

You're talking second generation. I'm talking 4 and 5 of which there are plenty in the UK (especially Indians and Caribbeans).

 

Your point is bloody stupid. He believes he's been discriminated against so he should go back to his parents country of birth? Following your logic every black person outside of traditionally black countries should go back if they have been discriminated against.

[brummie]

Um, because that's their heritage? Not sure what you're trying to insinuate. Are you saying that over time they become less Trinidadian?

 

Of course they do.

 

If your father arrived on the Windrush, then I can see how you'd feel the strength of heritage there, but I'd imagine the likes of, say, Daniel Sturridge, feel their heritage is more about kicking a ball around a playground in Birmingham as a child than it is about whichever location his ancestors came from.

 

For all his faults (mainly his being an absolute twat), try telling, say, Ian Wright that his heritage is anything other than being English - especially in a football context.

[Hanshithispantz]

What the fuck is Kaka talking about?

 

 

[brummie]

What the fuck is Kaka talking about?

 

 

 

I dunno, but I think he should have a word with Mo Farah.