Minhosa

Indi, I'll not quote your reply otherwise this post will end up massive. With regard to the 'managing big names' thing, I'm not in total agreement because even though he's had the Djorkaeff's, Anelka's, Okocka's and Diouf's of the world to manage they've all either been virtually finished or really damaged goods. Big names - yes, big names needing to prove something - yes, big names like golden boy Owen - no. Agree with regard to Newcastle being hard sell at the minute. Lets face it, the main attraction over the last five years has been ££££££££. I agree we need to walk before we can run but we need to be buying players that are better than those being signed by Spurs and Man City otherwise we're accepting sixth place downover.

How did Roeder attract Martins then? See the bit in bold. I think there would have been other takers for Martins to be honest. Obviously in the minority. Regardless, he was still a big name for a shit manager to attract.

How did Roeder attract Martins then?

I didn't think you were, I was just continuing the conversation. I too am surprised to not see much progress so far, but the thing that surprises me the most is the way Sam is behaving, which isn't how I'd have expected. He's chopping and changing and making strange substitutions and playing different formations, all of which are pretty much the last thing I'd have expected from him, and I want to know why this is. Agree. Maybe its the politics of a big club. How many other times has he had to 'manage' such big names/personalities as Owen/Viduka? How many other times has he had a really big budget? Can he change is 'sales pitch' to potential new players from 'we're a little club but you can be part of something great etc etc'? Can he attract the big names or even the players wanted by the top clubs? All unanswered at the minute for me and he's got it all to do because those questions perhaps shouldn't be answered by now - BUT what should be is sending his teams out organised, committed and in a system thats effective, if not pretty.

Why'd you think that is? Some thing's that might be relevant: He had a long time at Bolton to instil those values within the fabric of the club. We've not had any of that for a very long time. Maybe it just takes longer than we think? I'm not sure to be honest but in Barton, Smith etc he's bought grafters and even they don't look like they fancy the fight. How long did he have at Bolton before they looked like comfortably finishing in the top half? Maybe it is just time, but he's not a little old Bolton now so he won't have the luxury of infinite patience from either the paying public or the owner. He needs to be up for this challenge - it's gonna be the biggest of his career. I'm not sure how long he took at Bolton they were in the second tear at the time he took over after all, but I'm willing to bet that it was longer than he's had here so far. Barton: I think given his injury it's too early to tell anything about him at present. Smith: I think was a mistake, he quite obviously views this as a step down from ManU - but then it is, to be fair - and I think that much like Butt, it'll take him a while to get over that and start playing properly for us. That doesn't resolve the fact that nobody seems to know what position he should play and that he never really looks good enough in any of them, though. That's the reason I wouldn't have bought him myself. I also think that there's an issue with the owner nailing his colours to the mast quite so obviously and all. I agree that this is definitely the biggest challenge of Sam's career and I understand what you say about the fans not having unlimited patience, but as I've said the board should be trying to make Sam believe they have confidence in him, even if they don't, otherwise he's never going to be confident enough to do what he thinks is right and what's the point in having a manager that isn't doing what he thinks is right!?! Indi - I'm not disagreeing with you by any means. I've said elsewhere I'm firmly in the give him time/we need continuity camp. It's just there's very little in the way of positives in terms of how the team is set up and the manner in which they're playing. I'm not doubting Barton as a buy or character by the way. I think he'll do a job it's just another example of a typical 'get stuck in, fire up the crowd, never say die' kind of buy who hasn't portrayed that in any of his (albeit limited) minutes on the pitch. Same for Butt, Smith, Geremi etc who I would think would try to lift the crowd and colleagues by grabbing the game by the scruff of the neck even if that means rattling the opponents by bullying tactics or whatever.

Why'd you think that is? Some thing's that might be relevant: He had a long time at Bolton to instil those values within the fabric of the club. We've not had any of that for a very long time. Maybe it just takes longer than we think? I'm not sure to be honest but in Barton, Smith etc he's bought grafters and even they don't look like they fancy the fight. How long did he have at Bolton before they looked like comfortably finishing in the top half? Maybe it is just time, but he's not a little old Bolton now so he won't have the luxury of infinite patience from either the paying public or the owner. He needs to be up for this challenge - it's gonna be the biggest of his career.

I think the worry for me isn't so much whether I'd trust him to spend the money (I still think the likes of Roze, Enrique etc) will turn out to be decent long term buys. However, the worry for me is more about how he's turning out the current first team. They seem to have no gameplan, set formation, direction or will to put their bollocks on the line. SIX of the eleven today we're Allardyce buys. The worry for me, and the minimum I thought we'd get when we appointed Sam, is the lack of organisation and commitment. At Bolton, he used what he had really well. They were strong, committed, organised and never knew when they were beaten. We don't look like any of that. So, in my opinion, he'll probably not let us down in the market - the question for me is can he use what he has effectively? and can he get us results? Those are the key questions.

What were you saying about shit players Roy? Management Lesson No.1; If it doesn't involve you keep your mouth shut you cock. Management Lesson No.2; Only give the press a bite when you can use it to your own advantage.

I was listening to Redknapp after the match today and he was talking about Allardyce needing time etc etc but 6 of the starting 11 were his signings today; Enrique Viduka Rozenhal Beye Geremi Smith It's not like it's someone else's side. Its his. I'm still in the give him time, lets have continuity camp but fuck me if he's not testing loyalty. It just seems so direction-less and inept. And to see those fuckers wander out at half time and Given laughing with Gerrard (or whoever it was) at the end was gutting.

Whilst it might not help matters, the paying public have every right to voice their opinion. Nobody complained when we were the 12th man under Keegan/Robson. It's simple imo, play good football, give 100% in commitment and the team won't get booed. Play shite football, awful tactics without commitment and expect a hammering. It's hardly unfair.

Has Sam done a post-match interview yet? Sorry, if this has already been mentioned, haven't had time to read through the thread. If so, can someone summarise?

I'm Ashley - get back to work you lazy fucker.

This man speaks sense.

They were shit the whole qualifying group. So they are shit at international level. Shit against russia at home? Shit against Israel? Shit when they've gone out of most of the major tournaments recently on pens at a latter stage? I'm not saying they deserved to go through, the table doesn't lie however to label them 'shit' is total and utter bollocks. They are not shit players. I'd say totally overrated or overrated shit if you like. They are only overrated if people are basing their ratings on 'World Class'. There are not any teams, even at International level, where each player is world class. Every squad is made up of some elite players, some damned good players and some players who can do a job and not let you down. I'd not disagree though that many of the England squad is overrated by the media.

Truth hurt? Which ones are shit? please tell. Jolean Lescott for starters. You'll get a much longer list of players who are not anywhere near as good as they are told they are by the fawning SKY cocksuckers. He's not top class. He ain't shit either.

If I knew that I'd be dusting off my CV. It could be combination of factors;- - Poor selection from McClaren - Poor/Rigid formation - Poor communication from the coaching side on how they wanted the formation to work - Poor club form - Ego's - Too confident To be honest there's loads of possible reasons why they've failed but I don't see them as shit players. Look at Gerrard. How many of you truthfully wouldn't put him the top 5 midfielders in Europe? He hasn't played well for England for ages but that doesn't make him a shit player.

They were shit the whole qualifying group. So they are shit at international level. Shit against russia at home? Shit against Israel? Shit when they've gone out of most of the major tournaments recently on pens at a latter stage? I'm not saying they deserved to go through, the table doesn't lie however to label them 'shit' is total and utter bollocks. They are not shit players.

Frank Lampard at international level. Stroling around the pitch with the cleanest kit. I'm sorry but Keane didn't qualify his statement with 'at international level'. Lampard hasn't played well for england for a long time but shit player? Come off it.

You agree with him because they didn't play well? So, by that logic, anyone who has a shit game is automatically a shit player? Ok.

Truth hurt? Which ones are shit? please tell.

Coming from the bloke who bought Higgingbotham, Harte, Halford and Kieron Richardson he's got a fucking cheek. They may not all be world class but there not shit players, none of them. How many of the squad wouldn't make it into the Mackem first 11? Mind you're own business you cunt. Oh, and how did the Irish lads do Roy?

Totally agree. Didn't David Dein openly criticise it? Or am I dreaming? I'm sure I read somewhere he was vehemently against the McClaren appointment from day one and had actually been against the Sven appointment too. I've always rated Dein's approach so he might have something.

For some reason Skybet have suspended the betting on Capello? I'm gonna stick some money on Big Sam @ 20/1. I think he could be tempted after openly showing his hand the last time and being turned down and he's not had any public assurances from Ashley that he's the man he wants. Might have been told privately like but I reckon it's worth a dabble at 20's. Out of interest if you bet on Shearer and he was appointed as part of the management team. For example the F.A decided to appoint Venables and Shearer to jointly manage England would the bookies pay out? He might not be a bad bet at 12's.

lawrenson just said similar, like an american footballer who can come off the bench and help on crosses and set pieces. Robert............ Apart from Robert never had anywhere near Beckhams crossing ability.

From my viewpoint, as I've said earlier, these appointments are unproven which to me is a risk given we're at the early stages of building an effective scouting network. I'd have preferred to see us nick some people off clubs who already have good scouting networks and nick their databases. Appointments from clubs like Crewe, Arsenal, Celtic, Southampton..........clubs like that who seem to regularly turn out good young kids that end up in the first team squad. These lads, if they have worked as coaches, will presumably have to start from scratch?