merlin

The problem is that he hasn't got many eggs to PUT in any basket ! He was probably relying on the signing of players like Cleverley to keep the fans happy - HBA would just have been the icing on the cake ; look how many on here are doing handstands at the prospect of signing him... We've come a long way from the heady days of speculating whether the best CF in Europe was going to sign for his home-town club instead of Man U..!!

This is because Newcastle is NOT seen as a good destination for players who are young, proven and sought after. The club's lack of success with silverware and geographical position will ALWAYS count against it. The only way to alter that is to win things and the only way to achieve that is to develop our own players and sign youngsters before other clubs. Shepherd & Co were not really interested in developing the Academy until it was too late - even clubs like Boro had a head start on us. That is why they paid over the odds for players who either had temperament issues, or who were on the way down or were just after a final big pay day. It will be a long hard season(sell to buy is NOT an option with this squad)and quite few years before the club is in any shape to sign top players.

He's playing for Man Utd. Even Owen suddenly became highly rated again once he left us. Everyone is more highly rated once they leave us. Parker, Milner, Bramble, Duff... I could go on. The players you have mentioned all left in the last 5 years..perhaps that says more about the club than either the players or the media..! Let's be honest - there is no doubting the fact that Milner has DEF become a better player at Villa for a variety of reasons and Parker is being kept by W.Ham...as for the other 2, Duff had a good SPELL at Fulham under Hodgson and Bramble...well, let's see how he does at the SOS ! IMO all of those are very average players... yes Milner has improved, but we always knew he was better in the centre. He's certainly nowhere near as good as the media like to suggest. I bet by October, you wouldn't mind having at least 2 of those 'average players' back at SJP...no good kidding yourself, NUFC have a history of seeing players they sell do better elsewhere.

Neither Shearer or Ferdinand were on a downward spiral at all at the point when we signed them. Quite true, esp in Shearer's case ; he was only 25 when he joined NUFC in 1996. Ferdinand was 28, so he was at his peak.

He's playing for Man Utd. Even Owen suddenly became highly rated again once he left us. Everyone is more highly rated once they leave us. Parker, Milner, Bramble, Duff... I could go on. The players you have mentioned all left in the last 5 years..perhaps that says more about the club than either the players or the media..! Let's be honest - there is no doubting the fact that Milner has DEF become a better player at Villa for a variety of reasons and Parker is being kept by W.Ham...as for the other 2, Duff had a good SPELL at Fulham under Hodgson and Bramble...well, let's see how he does at the SOS !

quality players win you games, simple as, or would you rather want us to spend 6 million on 2 potential nicky butt's Teams win you games. The quality player is only effective in the context of the team. Quality players make teams play better and can win you matches from moment's of brilliance, the best example is when we signed robert and bellamy, which turned us from a team that finished 11th to a team that finished 4th. Or would you rather go back to the days of Gordon Lee, no stars policy From what I can gather, you weren't even born when Lee was running NUFC ; that was in 1975-77.... No doubt you have listened to lots of things that press guys said about Lee's teams, but here is the truth. When Lee took over, the club were going backwards under Joe Harvey who was at the end of his time as NUFC manager. We had Supermac, Irving Nattrass and Alan Kennedy(probably the best 2 fullbacks the club has had in the last 40 years),Tommy Craig(Scottish Int with brilliant left foot), Mickey Burns(consistent goalscorer, look it up), Tommy Cassidy(NI int) and others including Geoff Nulty who Lee turned into a great box-to-box midfielder. Lee brought in Alan Gowling and many of us, including me, were mystified, but Gowling went on to score 30 goals that season and even Supermac, who many thought Lee wanted to get rid of, scored 20. Lee changed the way the team played and altered some players' positions and we were poor for the first part of the season but after Christmas, we really flew. We beat Everton 5-0 at SJP(and it should have been 7 easily), Spurs 3-2 over a two-legged semi in the LC to get to Wembley, Coventry 4-0 at SJP in an FA Cup game, Derby(title challengers) 4-3 in an epic at SJP, then finally beat Bolton 2-1 after 2 great games in the FA Cup. Only the fact that the side got flu stopped us beating Man C at Wembley in my opinion and the same factor caused us to be knocked out of the FAC in the quarter-finals...all in one season. Has any manager given us such good cup runs in the last 40 years ? In the same season ? Lee was no genius - he did have a problem with Macdonald - but he DIDN'T have a problem with stars because many of the team WERE stars at the time. He sold Macdonald in the close season and wanted to replace him with the young Trevor Francis, then at Brum, but Brum wanted 500,000 and the board would only give Lee the 333,333 they got for Supermac so nobody was signed. Despite that, the club were in the top 4 by Xmas, then Everton came in for Lee and he went. Dinnis took over and despite the club qualifying for the UEFA Cup, they were relegated next season. Everyone blames Lee, but his record at SJP was far from bad. NO manager could succeed with the old board and KK wouldn't have come within 100 mls of the place had they still been in charge. Brian Clough took John McGovern to each of the main clubs he managed yet nobody thought HE was a 'star' - you need a proper blend to make a team....

quality players win you games, simple as, or would you rather want us to spend 6 million on 2 potential nicky butt's This is the second time you have said this - the truth is that quality players WITH GOOD ATTITUDE win you games ; those with temperament problems cost at least as many points as they help to win by causing dissention within the squad and by not pulling their weight in ALL matches and not just those in which they feel like it that day. Why do you think we are scrapping around after players like this when other clubs are buying proven quality ? The answer is that we CAN'T AFFORD players with skill AND good attitude. It will take YEARS to build a good set-up at NUFC because it will have to be done by using an expert scouting system to spot players before they get snapped up at a young age and by developing the Academy talent - there is no other way because NUFC cannot compete with clubs like Man U, Liverpool, Man C and the London clubs on a glamour basis. I say again - I would rather have taken Cleverley on loan than this guy for 5m because Cleverley has a proven record at Watford and whilst playing for Man U in pre-season, and is rated by SAF. It is a racing certainty that he would have given 100% whilst with us and that is something no French player has consistently done at SJP. Comments such as the one you made about Butt are simply not worth talking about.

If Cleverley goes to Wigan we should be damn sure to get Ben Arfa. I was hoping we went for both, excellent prospects. Of the two, Cleverley seems to be the one who's more in demand. I'm not so optimistic now, because it seems that all the Lancashire clubs are after him, and that will have its advantages for him. I just hope that the thought of playing in front of 50,000 crowds tips the lad into favouring us. Not that he'd have the last word. I'm worried that we're a bit out of favour with Ferguson after we borrowed Rossi and then didn't play him . You are probably right about Rossi. Also, Wigan means the lad doesn't have to move from his home. A wake-up call for all who still think we are a big draw for talented youngsters and for those who think Wigan will be one of the teams we can rely on finishing above this season. Very disappointing - would rather have had Cleverly than Ben Arfa frankly. Would have been more reliable.

If a car firm goes bust its usually because the product was no good - UK had the second largest car industry in the World after WW2, now look at it ; hardly a decent brand left in UK hands because Commie Unionists and lousy management between them cocked it up in the 70s..... Sounds just like some football clubs to me !

The people who took the piss should go to jail. Those that are left deserve their football club. Truth is that Portsmouth are a private company who can generate future tax payments to be pumped into the economy. Liquidate the club and you lose £37m plus all future tax revenues. Dont liquidate the club and get a bit back from the CVA, and get future tax revenues from a stable football club. Liquidate the club and every single club in the country pays every penny it owes on the dot, year in year out. Don't liquidate them and others will take the piss and HMRC might lose a hell of a lot more than that over the next 20 years or so. There will always be a club in Portsmouth so they can always tax the new club too. Make them start from scratch. I think the fear of prison for football club directors that don't pay the taxman is most likely to stop clubs offending. Obviously this requires new government legislation, but should be brought into place. Not liquidating Portsmouth will generate significantly more tax revenue than a non-league Portsmouth. Tough s***. Each month the taxman takes a chunk out of my wages without me having a choice. As does my National Insurance and my pension. Once they've gone my bills get paid and I've got a certain amount to live on. Portsmouth decided that they'd not pay their bills and invest the saved money in the squad and their wage bill. They achieved a fair amount of success with this enhanced squad and made quite a bit of extra money on the back of their FA Cup win and the European place it brought. They've lived beyond their means and have done so whilst deciding not to pay the essential bills that most other people and companies manage to. They deserve no sympathy and should be wiped out and made to start again. It's not the fans' fault but tough s***. Get behind the new club created in Portsmoth or go and support Southampton. Totally agree Midds - football clubs are NO exception from the Tax rules that govern the rest of us, and why on earth should they be ? Just because some people choose to base their lives around a football club is no reason to excuse them from the penalties that apply to everyone else. If you buy shares or have a Pension fund, you take your chance on its fortunes and, as those who got involved with Madoff found out, the people running them are not guaranteed to be whiter than white... So Pompey goes bust - so what ? At least the fans are not losing thousands of pounds in the process. Football needs a wake-up call and the over-paid numbskulls who play for some of them def need a pay cut...bring it on !!

Judging by some of the comments from those who have seen this player regularly, a Loan deal is probably the best thing for the club. We do not want, or need, any more erratic players who are brilliant one minute and then anonymous for the next 45. It will be tough enough to stay in the PL and to create a good team spirit when results are going badly without having players who are either prima donnas or very inconsistent. I remember 'Jinky' Jimmy Smith, who Joe Harvey paid a club record fee of 100,000 GBP to Aberdeen after we won the Fairs Cup ; Smith was supposed to be the final piece in the jig-saw that was going to transform us into genuine domestic honours challengers after our Euro success and Smith did indeed possess brilliant skills. I once saw him destroy Mike Bailey and Wolves on his own - nutmegs a plenty on Bailey etc., but these events were few and far between. Joe Harvey said that when he congratulated Smith on his performance, there was nothing there ; no exultation, pleasure at a job well done, just nothing...and Joe said he knew then that Smith was never going to reach his potential. If HBA joins on loan, he has to do the business - as others have said, our history with French players is hardly star-studded ; only Ginola and Robert have really done the business and not for too long either. We can then see whether he is worth the money and also if he is going to be a good member of the squad or not. If the club is to survive and prosper this season, we need ALL hands at the pumps - no passengers pls.

Yes, its quite true - Hamman left NUFC mainly because he didn't get on with Gullit ; a huge loss to the club in my opinion and Hamman's signing by Dalglish was one of the reasons that I didn't go along with the view that KD was a bad manager. Who would you rather have at the club, Hamman or the likes of Dyer and Marcelino - both Gullit signings. Hamman also believed the Board were, as he put it, 'average, so the club was average'. Gullit the C***! Hamann was absolutely fekin amazing the latter half of that season. Weren't his stats like the best in the Premier league for that season or something. I'm sure some stats had him as player of the season. I was shocked when he left, I couldn't believe it, I remember just reading he'd moved to Liverpool and being totally shocked

No. Under KK we would have been better than Fulham, who finished 7th. Better than Spurs who had a s*** start to that season under Ramos. All this stuff about KK is pointless because we will never know what would have happened if he had stayed. As it happens, I DO think the side would have done better - BUT - KK was NEVER going to stay if the club sold players without his full permission, OR told him tales about prospective signings that never materialised or, if they did, that he didn't want, so the debate is pointless. KK left because he felt that he couldn't do his job properly under the existing management set-up and if they had been more reasonable there is every chance that we would have had some different players to those we ended up with - like Xisco...! Also.players like Owen etc felt that there was no point after Keegan went, so morale dropped . The whole debate is hypothetical and we won't know how this side are going to perform until we see if any new faces come in or until after the first 2 months of the season.

Yes, all of those, remember them well - but what about Shearer in July 96 ? Shocked most of the football world, esp those smug Mancs...!

Anyone using the PSV result as a guide to the performances in the PL is living in cuckoo land. If we had been playing PSV in, say, Euro competition, we would have lost - simple as. They are a far better side than NUFC and the reason we got a draw was that they weren't bothered ; they were away from home, had showed what they could do in the first half and the onus was all on NUFC as the home side in the second half. PSV are closer to their starting League programme and so didn't want any injuries. As some lads have said, there are serious questions as to how NUFC can improve on their last showing in the PL simply because there have been no major additions to the squad who will make the difference, esp in the early days. Gosling is a non-starter until Christmas, Perch will be on a par to what we have now or slightly better at RB, and only Campbell may be an early success but that will NOT address the problem of goals. No major striker signing is likely so unless we get Cleverly on loan, the weight on Carroll's shoulders will be enormous. I do NOT expect Nolan to get anywhere near his goals total of last season...do YOU !?? Are there any youngsters who look as if they will add significantly to the team's performances this season? We will, rightly be among the favourites to finish between 16th and bottom purely on those facts. I also disagree that Wigan will be any worse than NUFC. the best hope we have is that teams like Wolves and Brum get off to bad starts or suffer a spate of injuries(not that you wish that on any player), because that will then give us a breathing space if we can pick up a few early points. Anyone who is struggling at Christmas usually has a tough job getting out of it - blind optimism is stupid, but so is blind pessimism - I have seen none of the latter because most if those preaching caution are using logic and the performances of the players when they were last in the PL. Just because Owen and N'Zogbia have gone doesn't mean the side suddenly becomes more capable of succeeding in the PL...

You can rarely determine how a season is going to pan out by pre-season friendly results, but 2 things stand out. Firstly, PSV are no mugs - they are usually amongst the title chasers in Holland and that fact that they appear to have given us a chasing in the first half is no surprise ; Dutch teams are very good at passing and movement and against what is a pedestrian midfield they would look even better than they are. It is to be hoped that SAF DOES allow Cleverly to join NUFC on loan because he will give us a bit more craft, movement and goal-threat from midfield which is patently lacking now - the likes of Lua Lua are NOT going to make it in the Prem, so the sooner people get that one fixed in their minds the better. We don't even know if Vuckic will either, because he is still only 17 and not ready. Hard to tell how much better the side might have been with Jonas to work the flanks - nobody else really up to it apart from Routledge. As I have said ad nauseam, Lovenkrands will be lost for long periods in PL games and is NOT up to scratch now, if he ever was... The only striker with any threat remains Carroll - Ameobi will turn it on now and again(but not again and again..!), but Carroll is the only one PL defences will worry about so unless there is a new striker signed(which looks highly unlikely), we are going to struggle for goals... All of these things we knew before playing PSV and the result against them matters not a jot. The only time I felt that a pre-season result was a decent indicator of what might happen in the following season was when KKs newly-promoted 1993 side went up to Glasgow and beat a decent Rangers team in the last build-up game....lets see what happens this time...!

Agreed - obviously SOMEONE at the AFA has a degree of sanity....

Hard to better this for a short-term signing - only question is over pace but he seems to have done OK with Arsenal last season. Def better than having Bramble back.

i'd like to see that number come down to 21 or 22 in time. Should be fun when we get the usual 6-7 injuries at the same time. There's no limit on youngsters though. Good rule IMO. Totally agree Dave - will make things into a more level playing field, but there will be an even greater scramble to get the best youngsters - Vuckic could be a major target for bigger clubs if he maintains improvement.

Agree - he will be shown for what he is in the new season.

Hughton's comments are very likely to return to haunt him later in the season....

Nailed it. Not sure he has tbh Every team outside the top 5 has to feed off the scraps they dont want. They have not covered themselves in glory over the last 4-5 years with there transfer dealings. In fact i cannot think of one player who they havnt paid well over market price for, who has set the place alight. We have to go for wild cards like Ben Arfa. He could well turn out to be the new Ginola or Robert just as much as he can be the alternative. Your pessimism, and old-school attitude also contributes to the mediocrity we, as fans, settle for. 'Old school attitude..' !? What planet are you on ? Wherever it is, I hope Newcastle United are being the successful club you seem to believe they are ...and as for teams outside the Top 5, how many have the support that NUFC has ? Methinks you are conveniently forgetting a few facts - NUFC HAS punched below its weight, and living in a fools' paradise will not alter those facts ; we should NOT have been outside the Top 5 after the base KK and SJH set up in the 90s. If you believe my comments are pessimism, perhaps you will put an alternative 'Optimists' view ? And as for being another Ginola or Robert, how do those players compare to Ben Arfa except on perhaps playing position ? If Marseilles want him out of the door, its a sure bet that they don't want him at their club.

Both kept under lock and key for the majority of the time because they were controlled by great managers. Keane NEVER stepped out of line at Forest because he feared Clough - and rightly so. Clough was once asked if he had chinned Keane and he said 'No - he wouldn't have got back up if I had..!' Cantona was hardly a wild card outside the club in the way that the likes of Dyer & Co have been - he was simply a bit of a strange guy.

Dave, I know blind optimism can be irritating. But you must surely be THE most pessimistic person on this entire board Haha, not really. Like you I'm just expecting nothing. I've been the same with NUFC for as long as I can remember. Hope for the best, expect the worst. You can't blame ANYONE for being pessimistic where NUFC are concerned - those of us who have been following the club long before many on here were born have seen it lurch from disaster to disaster with only a small period where it looked as if the club might eventually punch its weight....the only meaningful silverware coming over 40 years ago. The tone of many contributors to this site show that quite a number of fans have accepted the club as second rate although they won't actually come out and say it ; the fact is that the club IS second rate at best and likely to remain that way for the foreseeable future. We had our chance to join the big boys back in the mid 90s and fluffed it ; we then compounded that by committing suicide in the way the club was run after SJH left as Chairman and by appointing a succession of bad managers after SBR. Even under Sir Bobby, we were never the power we had been in the mid 90s - the fact that we never really looked like challenging for the title tells you that. Once the NOTW broke the scandal involving DSH and FS, we were targeted by the sports media as potential figures of fun ; something that created much resentment among other teams' fans who took great delight in seeing our self-inflicted downfall. A`place in the PL is the LEAST a club of Newcastle's size should be expecting and the fact that we are far more likely to be relegation candidates than in the top half shows how far the club have fallen ; what is more, unless progress is made it will be increasingly-difficult to sign the quality players needed to make the side better, hence Hughton having to look for bargains in the lower leagues or abroad. All the talk about players like Ben Arfur fails to conceal the fact that top clubs do not want him because of his character - successful clubs NEVER build teams around players who are controversial on or off the field and NUFC has had far too many of those in its history..... It takes years to build a successful side/club, and we will need much time and probably a change of ownership in the medium term to get anywhere near doing that - Ashley is probably the best NUFC can expect in the current climate and at least he is keeping the club away from major financial problems which plague many PL clubs. It just means some(MORE)years of putting up with mediocrity, and fans like Dave know that.

It's certainly in our interests to sign Cleverley, for those kinds of reasons. But Gosling isn't out for the season, and so I wonder whether Cleverley and Man U may now have better options ie somewhere he's needed more. Natural pessimist me, though. Know what you are saying but with injuries like Goslings there will be a easing in period too so Cleverley should get nigh on 3/4 of the season ahead of him. Plus they are different players and Cleverley will offer a lot more in attacking situations from what i have seen which is what we need more. I can see Cleverley getting well over 30 appearances which is exactly what Fergie will want for him. Dont see any problem with this idea as its win-win for everyone. http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/2010/07/25/nufc-in-four-way-fight-for-young-tom-cleverley-79310-26924469/ Might be speculation on the Sun's part, but they're saying that Ferguson is asking for assurances that Cleverley will feature regularly in the first team, which is fair enough, and that may cause us to lose out. Which would be a shame. Tbh I've got my doubts about Routledge having an impact in the Premiership, despite his playing a big part in the final promotion push. Playing with two out and out wingers is also a bit risky at this level, for us. I know we're probably only talking about a one season loan, but I'd really try and find room for Cleverley. But here is the stumbling block this bit innit But Newcastle boss Chris Hughton is considering other options while chewing over Red Devils counterpart Sir Alex Fergusons insistence that Cleverley be guaranteed a regular starting place this season. To be fair you can see fergies point, the lad needs to be playing week in week out. I'm prety sure he would start each week anyway but just tell fergie that either way and f we try him and he isn't good enough yet we'll have broken the terms of his loan when he's dropped and he can go back. Don't blame Fergie for wanting some assurances about Cleverly, esp after what happened with Rossi's loan period. Ferguson is too professional a manager to want assurances that Cleverly will start every game because HE wouldn't give those assurances to anyone himself, but he is right to expect the lad to be given a regular place on merit ; Cleverly's record whilst with Watford indicates that he WILL do the business and I sincerely hope we don't lose out on this player simply because Hughton is afraid of upsetting members of the group that seemed to be acting as go-betweens with him and the rest of the players last season. NOBODY should be guaranteed a permanent place unless their form merits it - that includes Cleverly, but also EVERYONE ELSE at the club. If the Sunday Sun is correct in its assertion that Cleverly favours a move to SJP, then that surely is a good sign of the player's commitment to the cause.