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top class world established stars?! Come on, before the start of last season not a great number of people even knew of Modric or Arshavin. I'm not saying they weren't good players but they were a long way off world established stars and neither of them are 18 or 19 and bursting through. Yes, they have both had quality seasons and i think both have the potential to make big impacts. What i wouldn't be comfortable with is us replacing 5 of our 6 front players (if Berbatov goes) from last season. They would be playing Bent or A N Other up top who would be like a new player as Bent played so little last year and never on his own, then Jenas would be the only other player who was there last year. It will indeed be 'lucking out' if all of the new players, dropped in a team together, gelled quickly and formed a cohesive attacking unit whilst simultaneously learning to defend, which none of those players could do last season. Your top 4 breaking theorem is the one that failed us under Souness. Yes, I would like us to buy a few big name players, but i'd like to see them integrated and combined with the current squad and then built upon in January, not just completely replacing and stripping out our current team, which is what it looks like Spurs are doing. Put another way, would you be happy if we sold Owen, Martins and Viduka and signed Arshavin and Modric, leaving Shola to play up front on his own? I know that Bent is better than Shola, but it's equivalent 4th choice striker from January (Defoe, Berbatov and Keane ahead). I certianly wouldn't be. To be honest, I don't know where to start with that response. If Arshavin and Modric were not established stars, particulalry after the Euros then I don't know what qualifies - I'm not saying they are a Messi or Ronaldo but top class in their respective leagues and international teams, yes. I agree that bringing in a number of players in one go definetely brings a risk they will not gel but since they were available and in my eyes improve the squad, I would have bought them and if some needed more time than others, so be it - Ramos is a damn good coach and will know what he is doing there - though on reflection see my point below about Modric and Arshavin. The failure of Souness - I fail to see the relevance given the proven history of his incompetence as a manager full stop. I don't think the comparision with the 4 strikers is fair, Bent and Defoe vied for that 3rd berth. Additionally, why would we have to do what Spurs have done and can Arshavin not play in the attacking midfield role so the need to sell 3 strikers would not apply here? I actually would only want one of the two between Modric and Arshavin (probably Arshavin if pushed) given our current squad but the fact that Spurs are actually going out and getting them makes me envious. So, what you're saying is you would like us to have bought the players Spurs have but not let any of our best players go? No s***... We'd all have liked that... You've not actually addressed the point i was making, which was i wouldn't be happy for us to have shipped out our best players and replaced them with players, some of whom have no experience in the league. Top class in their relative leagues? Russia and Croatia? Not exactly what i would deem the best league. Yes, they can only do the best where they are but that's my point about them being relatively unproven, hence being a risk (see teams signing players from Senegal and the likes following successful tournaments). Jonas and (hopefully) Collocini have been playing rather well in the Spanish league, which gives me more optimism of them performing week in week out in the Premiership. Obviously not always the case (see: luque) but i think it gives a slightly more revealing insight. Agreed, the Souness thing does fall flat because he was a s*** manager, but my point was that i'm happy IF we're now being sensible and gradually building on what we have rather than throwing cash willy nilly and changing our whole squad around. I bet it's very exciting being a Spurs fan now and not so exciting being an Everton or Arsenal fan, but those teams have had results through gradually building, adding to their youth set up and making a team, rather than continuously chopping and changing players and manager as Spurs and we previously have. I'm just saying i'm actually more content now, if we're making the effort to be more stable and build gradually. I won't be able to tell you if that's the case or whether we are just being useless / cheap until August 31st. Cop out i know. Right, missed the point slightly - would I like to have shipped say Oba, Owen and potentially Viduka to get in Modric and Arshavin? Well put it that way, probably not and in theory I agree wholeheartedly with the building gradually. I still think we are building gradually with unproven players of potentially a lesser quality than Spurs and despite them playing in poorer leagues, Modric and Arshavin have proven themsleves in Europe and internationally. I would be happier if were at least in for some of these types of players, particularly in the area of creativity. Granted, your point is valid and thus buying 4 or 5 of them at one time may not be sensible. (Sometimes it takes a little while for it to sink in ) Hehe, so essentially, we agree, we just missed each other in the crossfire... I love the internet

top class world established stars?! Come on, before the start of last season not a great number of people even knew of Modric or Arshavin. I'm not saying they weren't good players but they were a long way off world established stars and neither of them are 18 or 19 and bursting through. Yes, they have both had quality seasons and i think both have the potential to make big impacts. What i wouldn't be comfortable with is us replacing 5 of our 6 front players (if Berbatov goes) from last season. They would be playing Bent or A N Other up top who would be like a new player as Bent played so little last year and never on his own, then Jenas would be the only other player who was there last year. It will indeed be 'lucking out' if all of the new players, dropped in a team together, gelled quickly and formed a cohesive attacking unit whilst simultaneously learning to defend, which none of those players could do last season. Your top 4 breaking theorem is the one that failed us under Souness. Yes, I would like us to buy a few big name players, but i'd like to see them integrated and combined with the current squad and then built upon in January, not just completely replacing and stripping out our current team, which is what it looks like Spurs are doing. Put another way, would you be happy if we sold Owen, Martins and Viduka and signed Arshavin and Modric, leaving Shola to play up front on his own? I know that Bent is better than Shola, but it's equivalent 4th choice striker from January (Defoe, Berbatov and Keane ahead). I certianly wouldn't be. To be honest, I don't know where to start with that response. If Arshavin and Modric were not established stars, particulalry after the Euros then I don't know what qualifies - I'm not saying they are a Messi or Ronaldo but top class in their respective leagues and international teams, yes. I agree that bringing in a number of players in one go definetely brings a risk they will not gel but since they were available and in my eyes improve the squad, I would have bought them and if some needed more time than others, so be it - Ramos is a damn good coach and will know what he is doing there - though on reflection see my point below about Modric and Arshavin. The failure of Souness - I fail to see the relevance given the proven history of his incompetence as a manager full stop. I don't think the comparision with the 4 strikers is fair, Bent and Defoe vied for that 3rd berth. Additionally, why would we have to do what Spurs have done and can Arshavin not play in the attacking midfield role so the need to sell 3 strikers would not apply here? I actually would only want one of the two between Modric and Arshavin (probably Arshavin if pushed) given our current squad but the fact that Spurs are actually going out and getting them makes me envious. So, what you're saying is you would like us to have bought the players Spurs have but not let any of our best players go? No shit... We'd all have liked that... You've not actually addressed the point i was making, which was i wouldn't be happy for us to have shipped out our best players and replaced them with players, some of whom have no experience in the league. Top class in their relative leagues? Russia and Croatia? Not exactly what i would deem the best league. Yes, they can only do the best where they are but that's my point about them being relatively unproven, hence being a risk (see teams signing players from Senegal and the likes following successful tournaments). Jonas and (hopefully) Collocini have been playing rather well in the Spanish league, which gives me more optimism of them performing week in week out in the Premiership. Obviously not always the case (see: luque) but i think it gives a slightly more revealing insight. Agreed, the Souness thing does fall flat because he was a shit manager, but my point was that i'm happy IF we're now being sensible and gradually building on what we have rather than throwing cash willy nilly and changing our whole squad around. I bet it's very exciting being a Spurs fan now and not so exciting being an Everton or Arsenal fan, but those teams have had results through gradually building, adding to their youth set up and making a team, rather than continuously chopping and changing players and manager as Spurs and we previously have. I'm just saying i'm actually more content now, if we're making the effort to be more stable and build gradually. I won't be able to tell you if that's the case or whether we are just being useless / cheap until August 31st. Cop out i know.

Fair shout, i've been the first to bitch about an OBNB debate kicking off in every thread... Apologies

Owen was 25, Emre was 24 & only £3.8m, and Duff was 27 and only £5m. Don't let that get in the way of your argument though. They have all had their best years behind them though and considering what they've done here they have been "relatively expensive". What he said. In all three cases, these players had been at a considerably higher level at least two yeras prior to us signing them. In all three cases, the players had a long list of prior injury problems/recurrances, with one of them being badly off the boil for at least 1.5 years prior to joining us. In Duff and Emre's case, we offered higher wages than the competiiton just to land them or attract them in the first place. According to reports, they would have signed for Spurs and Everton respectively had we not jumped in (can add Parker to that list too, again if reports are to be believed). In Owen's case, we reportedly offered double the transfer fee and considerably higher wages just to freeze Liverpool out of the equation and force Owen's hand. I dont think theres anything particularly wrong with either scenario on their own - signing a player who has gone off the boil for some time or had injury problems, or overpaying in wages to beat off competition/attract someone. Its when we combine both that the alarm bells should be ringing and we should be open to the possibility of shooting ourselves in the foot if we do sign that type of player using those means. Which one had been off the boil for 1.5yrs prior to joining us?? Also, think it's pretty harsh to judge on hindsight - saying their best years were behind them is all well and good now, but when we signed them i'd say most were pretty confident we could still see some pretty amazing players. Duff. As for their best years behind them, yes thats a view made in hindsight, but thats not really my point - im more referring to the fact that by the time we signed them they had shown themselves to be nowhere near the player they a few seasons before. As an example, SWP is 26 and has been "off the boil" compared to his City form for nearly 3 years now. If we were to offer Chelsea 20mill for him, or conversely £5m but 100k per week in wages, would you be happy? And if not, and three years later it turned out he was an average signing at best, would it be fair for someone else to state that your displeasure at the signing overall is purely in hindsight? There are some players who show a very clear dip in form, and that that dip is permanent. Its usually down to injuries or not playing for a long time, and therefore its fair to say that theyve peaked earlier, even if theyre still in their mid 20's. Obviously its also fair to have a belief or faith that this player's dip in form is not permanent and they can get back to a previous level with a run of games/increased confidence/etc, but the point being made is that we should be wary when it comes to signing someone like this and paying over the odds in either fee or wages in order to get them. Hence why this transfer policy of not overpaying for players with a considerably bigger reputation than performances in recent years seems sound, if it does exist. Maybe it doesnt as Dave is suggesting. I just think that it's a bit harsh to say they had all "shown themselves to be nowhere near the player they a few seasons before". Owen was treated badly at Madrid, scored more goals than he got starts and was really unfortunate. Certainly didn't look to be off the boil at all. Duff had a disappointing season the one before joining us but the year prior was quality. Admittedly Emre seemed a gamble but £3.8m was not exactly a huge gamble. Now, i'm not trying to say i agree with transfer policy past / current, i am saying though that I think the example used, especially Duff / Owen, is a bad one - we all wanted these players when they signed, it can't now be used as a stick to beat the previous regime with, especially when there are other far better examples!

top class world established stars?! Come on, before the start of last season not a great number of people even knew of Modric or Arshavin. I'm not saying they weren't good players but they were a long way off world established stars and neither of them are 18 or 19 and bursting through. Yes, they have both had quality seasons and i think both have the potential to make big impacts. What i wouldn't be comfortable with is us replacing 5 of our 6 front players (if Berbatov goes) from last season. They would be playing Bent or A N Other up top who would be like a new player as Bent played so little last year and never on his own, then Jenas would be the only other player who was there last year. It will indeed be 'lucking out' if all of the new players, dropped in a team together, gelled quickly and formed a cohesive attacking unit whilst simultaneously learning to defend, which none of those players could do last season. Your top 4 breaking theorem is the one that failed us under Souness. Yes, I would like us to buy a few big name players, but i'd like to see them integrated and combined with the current squad and then built upon in January, not just completely replacing and stripping out our current team, which is what it looks like Spurs are doing. Put another way, would you be happy if we sold Owen, Martins and Viduka and signed Arshavin and Modric, leaving Shola to play up front on his own? I know that Bent is better than Shola, but it's equivalent 4th choice striker from January (Defoe, Berbatov and Keane ahead). I certianly wouldn't be.

Owen was 25, Emre was 24 & only £3.8m, and Duff was 27 and only £5m. Don't let that get in the way of your argument though. They have all had their best years behind them though and considering what they've done here they have been "relatively expensive". What he said. In all three cases, these players had been at a considerably higher level at least two yeras prior to us signing them. In all three cases, the players had a long list of prior injury problems/recurrances, with one of them being badly off the boil for at least 1.5 years prior to joining us. In Duff and Emre's case, we offered higher wages than the competiiton just to land them or attract them in the first place. According to reports, they would have signed for Spurs and Everton respectively had we not jumped in (can add Parker to that list too, again if reports are to be believed). In Owen's case, we reportedly offered double the transfer fee and considerably higher wages just to freeze Liverpool out of the equation and force Owen's hand. I dont think theres anything particularly wrong with either scenario on their own - signing a player who has gone off the boil for some time or had injury problems, or overpaying in wages to beat off competition/attract someone. Its when we combine both that the alarm bells should be ringing and we should be open to the possibility of shooting ourselves in the foot if we do sign that type of player using those means. Which one had been off the boil for 1.5yrs prior to joining us?? Also, think it's pretty harsh to judge on hindsight - saying their best years were behind them is all well and good now, but when we signed them i'd say most were pretty confident we could still see some pretty amazing players.

I suppose there were threads like this on the Spurs board 1 or 2 years ago when we pipped them to Duff et al. Didn't exactly work out that well for them. Whilst i'm not saying i'm overwhelmed by our current transfer activity, lets actually wait until the season starts and we've seen the team Spurs put out and how they play before we judge. Lets also wait until the winter when Spurs travel to Bolton or Wigan or somesuch and see how much Modric and Arshavin (if he actually signs) impact the game. I'm aware they don't exactly come from the warmest of climates but i'd also bet they aren't used to being pummelled and cropped in a way that only particular teams from the North-West of England seem cabable of. What's sad about this thread is it will give those Spurs fans visiting the site a warm glow. Fuck that, they should be bricking it, they've lost their best players (if Berbatov goes) and replaced them with unknowns. Whilst Man City lucked out last year, there's nothing to say Spurs will this year.

In what way are they similar? Under 21 internationals, 70 games in their respective top flights, played for relegation fodder the season previous... Don't get me wrong, not saying they're similar players, just the stats... Just saying i'll take Bassong over Cattermole any day!

Just read this, quite scary parallels, just with one English and the other French, not sure i'd be pleased if it was he we were signing... http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_3882662,00.html

http://teledyski.emuzyka.pl/teledysk/22063.html

Surely all games fall into these 2 categories? Or do we have games we expect to draw coming up after August?

Reyes best position is AMF/SS. Not a typical winger in my opinion. I think we waste his qualities if he's used on the wing. Wenger wins. You lose. Reyes was a terror on Arsenal's left side before his mommy started missing Spain. Tell you what is a waste on the left side, it's Damien Duff. Whilst I completely agree Wenger is a genius, i do think he plays a lot of players out of their best position, no matter how well they play in the position they're put...

Thing is, and i know it doesn't really hold a great deal of relevance, all of you guys know a hell of a lot about the club and through this must realise why you both have the views you do, even if you don't agree with them? It's not like any of you are WUMs (notable exclusion of NE5 on a few occasions from an outsider viewpoint) and you all (NE5 included) want to see us do well. Some people will be cautious, some people optimistic, that's more due to the nature of the person than anything we know about the club. It's like anything, history and stats can be used in anyone's argument as there is so damn much in just the last 15 years that any view can be argued / defended, it's all about perception. I guess the one thing it does make me realise is what a damn difficult job the club has on it's hands, as people rarely agree on everything and with the set up we have there now any disagreement will be convoluted and then magnified if the press catch hold of it, even if said disagreement doesn't actually exist.

Certainly wasn't having a dig at you, was just cruising through a few of the threads and everything seemed to be going down the same path. Looking at the above line, I think you actually agree with me. But fair play, totally understand it's your view and it's a message forum designed for people voicing opinion...You add a lot more value than me as i say a collective amount of fuck all 90% of the time - would rather be reading your views than none at all, just be nice to have a topic without some of the backbiting. We do all want the same thing after all!

So, does every thread on here now just end in a row between 2 people from the old board / new board camps?!

Yup. Like our best run last season happened when Milner was out of the team. Bit harsh, think it was more the coinciding of Smith not being in the team... Think he's worth a go there, more than anything because i can't really see a great deal of attacking midfield options on our current budget. Be interesting to see if Keegan pulls someone out the bag though...

Just seems to be his agent getting progressively more desparate. He's gone from Barcelona, to Arse / Chelsea and now Spurs... Give it a couple more weeks and his agent will suddenly be welcoming Newcastle interest...

That's the easy option. Every year people think the same 3 that come up will be relegated, doesn't often happen that way. Bolton Stoke Sunderland

press in totally made up story shocker: http://www.teamtalk.com/football/story/0,16368,1780_3833326,00.html

I used to be of this view, but taken from a personal angle, the Daily Telegraph wrote an article about the company i work for and in a piece of no more than 200 words they got the company's business wrong, they got our location wrong, they got all kinds of figures totally wrong. Now, i'm not saying it's the same thing, but this was an article in the finance section of the Telegraph, a supposedly reputable source writing about things that any of us could find on the internet if we did a small amount of research. They didn't even apologise, just withdrew the article from their website 2 weeks after publishing, corrected everything they got wrong and put it back up. I'd imagine the quality of journalism in the sports section of your average tabloid is substantially worse and so can only imagine what percentage of what they write is actually correct. Yes, occasionally are scoops, but stories that gradually worm their way out, such as the Aimar story, seem to be when a dripped rumour becomes an avalanche so everyone repeats it to avoid seeming like they were missing something. If it's a load of bollocks, who cares. I honestly reckon that if you just watched players and listened to what they said in press conferences you could decipher whether they were completely happy at a club as well as monitoring clubs to see how healthy they were financially / what their transfer policy is / has been then you could have a more accurate stab at an entire summer of transfer activity than what any of the papers do.

It is a bit depressing. I strongly believe a lot of what is being said is absolute bullshit, but in the modern era of everything being communicated as fact to all and sundry, it can be doing us no good having hacks constantly write about us being rejected by various players. Footballers aren't exactly notoriously bright and i'm sure they check the odd footie site now and then (if they've all got feckin facebook and bebo, one would think they have managed to master the basics of using a computer). It's kind of like being tried for a crime you didn't commit, it doesn't matter whether you're innocent or guilty, once the Daily Mail get hold of it, you're fucked either way. Hope i'm wrong though.

Cole was on the news when i got home from school... Shearer was when i was round a mate's house chilling out during school holidays and my mum came hammering on the door, which she had never done in my entire life, so i totally shat myself that something dreadful had happened... It wasn't helped when she started her sentence with 'your granddad's just been on the phone'... Then she said 'You've signed Alan Shearer', i sprinted past her and straight home, put teletext on and nearly burst into tears i was so excited. One of those moments i'll never ever forget. Fuck off with the 'where were you when Diana died' that i often hear asked, it's all about where you were when Alan Shearer signed, that exact moment you found out it wasn't a lie... I can only imagine what it would feel like to win something, but Shearer signing will always remain up there for me until that day finally comes.

Did you continue reading down to this bit: At 3:53pm on Tuesday 15th July 2008, Aimar was transferred to Newcastle United from Real Zaragoza for a fee of £7.6M. He will wear squad number 8. Later that day, at 4.19pm he was sold to Sunderland, although the deal is resting on his nationality being changed to Irish.

Terrible SPG...

He's saying that all the extra information available these days is mostly bullshit; it was far more exciting and worthwhile when we knew nothing about signings beforehand. He's depressed that nothing seems to be happening, but he knows full well that he's depressed for no good reason. The real reason he should be depressed is that we were crap last year. hehe, i see i must read things completely differently to everyone else... My bad, then