Cf

At least Eddie realised it wasn't right and rectified it. Bit harsh subbing a sub but he did it when needed.

I think we're all in agreement he needs a run in the team at this point. Hopefully the time on the training field means when he comes in he's going to hit the ground running. It's been a bit of a weird one but I'm going to assume Howe knows better than I do but the difference with him and Barnes on the left was night and day and surely can't be ignored.

Wtf am I watching.

I'd not be happy if that was given against us I don't think.

Don't think we've been that bad tbh. Certainly had the chances. They've not had much but scored from what they've had.

Almiron probably coming off in protest tbh after the finishes from the two chances he created.

Wtf is going on.

Just from a sporting point of view you don't take the quick free kick with a player down?

Fuck right off.

Quietly confident about this.

Given the season we're having I'm surprised they've got time for stuff like that. They should be spending more time on the training pitch sorting Botman's knee out.

Yeah agreed. There's certainly a way to articulate it and it wasn't that.

There's a certain merit in it though. Stats aren't everything of course but at the same time they do help paint a picture of where things could be had the dice settled differently. You can do all the right things but still lose on the day. It's the nature of the game. People say it's a results game and it is but at times you need to be able to look past the results and stick with a manager when things aren't going too well if you think the underlying job is good. This works the other way round too. Think of us every time we thought Pardew was under pressure and he'd pull out a series of wins. And that fluke 5th season. He deserves a certain amount of credit for it but we could all see it was a statistical anomaly for us to end where we did. See also West Ham and Moyes. The European win was great for them in terms of a trophy but they've been naff beyond that for some time but it's hard to bin a manager when he's won you something. West Ham are one of this seasons over performers in terms of xPTS. To claim they "should be 4th" is obviously silly. The league isn't going to end with everyone where they "should" be and would be boring if it was. Understat has them 6th fwiw. And us at 5th. Biggest over performers are Man Utd who should be 11th. If they were actually down there ETH would be gone by now. And arguably he should be already but their current league position is masking where they are.

The medical team will have recommended surgery on balance from the advice they had all received. But it won't have been a clear cut you definitely need surgery. There's a lot more nuance to it than some people are making out and it's why I don't find Howe's comments helpful the way he's seemingly made out that Botman overruled the club and this is some sort of crisis of management. This sort of discussion about whether an injury requires surgery or not probably happens all the time. We obviously aren't privy to such conversations. It's just not that often that this is the outcome.

Because sometimes you have no good options. In hindsight we should have probably gone the surgery route. But the key point is this would also have been a gamble. The surgery could have complications, it might be a success but he comes back not the same, he'd obviously be out longer, etc. As I said there's no blanket rule in this scenario and it's a case by case basis. Presented with the various pieces of advice the player went down the no surgery route. Had every piece of advice been "you need surgery" he'd have had it.

This is where Howe's comments aren't helpful. In reality they'll have all discussed it as a group and as a result of Botman's input of not wanting the surgery will have agreed a plan for how to proceed without. I don't know what this he's not playing is about. He didn't play whilst he had to rest. Once he's rested and it's seemingly healed why wouldn't Howe play him?

The key point for me was yes it was a gamble. But surgery isn't without risks - it also would have been a gamble. Essentially he didn't get injured enough. Had it been more serious it would have required surgery. Had it been less serious he'd have just needed some rest and rehab. As it happens the damage was somewhere in the middle where there wasn't really a correct choice. If there's lessons to learn then yeah learn them. But the lesson isn't "if in doubt get the surgery". It's far too simplistic and is going to be on a case by case basis.

Not everything needs blame apportioned.

In that sense perhaps not but surgery entails risks. Risks someone might not want to take with their body when some medical experts are telling them they don't think you need it.

Howe's comments though are a little more fanning the flames than we've come to expect. "There was conflicting advice from specialists as to whether surgery was required or not. Between the player and our medical team we decided to proceed without and monitor the situation as time went on. In hindsight surgery might have been the better choice but it wasn't a clear cut decision". Done.

Doesn't sound like a huge deal to me. Sounds like it was somewhat 50/50 whether the surgery was required, medical team erred on the side of caution to get it done, and Botman presented with the options decided he wanted to proceed without. He knows his own body and I'm sure there'll have been scans etc as time went on. Just yet another injury related issue that's fallen the wrong way for us.

Is he? What have we won under him? He's got good records in terms of going deep in competitions and whilst you can only beat what's in front of you he's had massively favourable draws and i'd argue we've achieved on the lower end of expectations given that apart from that one game against Germany we've fallen down as soon as we've come against any half decent side.

In terms of xPts from understat we "should" have finished 15th and 16th. The football was obviously shit but we over performed which was pretty clear via eye test. The 16th was only a couple of points from relegation so a couple of key things falling the other way could have seen that as a relegation season quite easily. So no it wasn't great on paper.

4, 2, and 135 in the bin.

You can tell it's international break time when Pardew vs Bruce is wheeled out again.