Dave Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen arguably offers even less to the team whilst being less effective in terms of goal return. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen arguably offers even less to the team whilst being less effective in terms of goal return. Not true. Owen is a much more intelligent player. He will make better runs and get in better positions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen arguably offers even less to the team whilst being less effective in terms of goal return. Not true. Owen is a much more intelligent player. He will make better runs and get in better positions. Sure, but what has that got to do with what I said? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen arguably offers even less to the team whilst being less effective in terms of goal return. Not true. Owen is a much more intelligent player. He will make better runs and get in better positions. So how come his goals to games ratio isn't significantly better than Martins'? Owen is just as limited as Martins but in other ways. Both need to go long-term. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen arguably offers even less to the team whilst being less effective in terms of goal return. Not true. Owen is a much more intelligent player. He will make better runs and get in better positions. Sure, but what has that got to do with what I said? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I think a player who can make make good runs, get in good positions, has a good first touch and is just in general a better player means he offers more to the team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen arguably offers even less to the team whilst being less effective in terms of goal return. Not true. Owen is a much more intelligent player. He will make better runs and get in better positions. Sure, but what has that got to do with what I said? Him doing those things helps the team, maybe? He's also much better at taking the ball in and moving it onto a teammate than Martins. They're very different in terms of what they offer, against lesser teams I'd want Owen as he'd help us in our build up play much more than Oba. Against better teams you'd have Martins on there in the hope he doe something spectacular on his own, as we'll likely not have enough of the ball in advanced positions for Owen to be effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'm not saying Martins is as good as Owen, before anyone assumes so. Nor am I denying any of the things said about Owen's superior technique and stuff. I just don't think a now-static Owen feeding off scraps and being nothing like as clinical as he once was offers such a significant improvement to the overall team play over Martins. Owen is just as likely to do fuck all for the full game as Martins iyam, except now Owen isn't half as dangerous in front of goal as he used to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'm not saying Martins is as good as Owen, before anyone assumes so. Nor am I denying any of the things said about Owen's superior technique and stuff. I just don't think a now-static Owen feeding off scraps and being nothing like as clinical as he once was offers such a significant improvement to the overall team play over Martins. Owen is just as likely to do fuck all for the full game as Martins iyam, except now Owen isn't half as dangerous in front of goal as he used to be. I agree with this, if anything Martins is more likely to benefit from the way we play than Owen and with it the team with Martins in it. Again though we need to move away from Martins. In fact our entire forward line needs replaced eventually because none of them are either good enough, compatible or long-term solutions (Viduka's age, Owen's fitness) etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'm not saying Martins is as good as Owen, before anyone assumes so. Nor am I denying any of the things said about Owen's superior technique and stuff. I just don't think a now-static Owen feeding off scraps and being nothing like as clinical as he once was offers such a significant improvement to the overall team play over Martins. Owen is just as likely to do fuck all for the full game as Martins iyam, except now Owen isn't half as dangerous in front of goal as he used to be. Agree. Seems like when Owen started ahead of Martins, people were whinging, and when Owen was injured people were saying "great, now Martins can play", but now they think Martins is terrible and can't wait to get Owen back... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PM Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I'm not saying Martins is as good as Owen, before anyone assumes so. Nor am I denying any of the things said about Owen's superior technique and stuff. I just don't think a now-static Owen feeding off scraps and being nothing like as clinical as he once was offers such a significant improvement to the overall team play over Martins. Owen is just as likely to do fuck all for the full game as Martins iyam, except now Owen isn't half as dangerous in front of goal as he used to be. Spot on David. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 I just think Owen is better, I still like Martins and those 2 should be our first choice strike force when everyone is fit. Play one of Smith/Viduka against strong physical sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Smash and grab! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen and Viduka are far more intelligent footballers than Martins, but Owen is usually injured and Viduka has been unfit. They are both pretty slow these days as well, and if they are going to play instead of Martins, we'd have to play a different type of football away from home as there would be no chance of hitting teams on the break if we sat back. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 He looked to be carrying something when he was taken off. Probably not serious like, he was whincing a bit beforehand though. Furney's comment made me laugh though:"He'll score a goal and everyone will think he's done enough." Well yeah, that's what i tend to expect from me strikers. 24 in 56 is ay-ok for me. Martins can be abysmal all game but if he gets a goal or two he'll be forgiven. Such is the life of a striker. It's fair enough, but you can both surely see that it severely hurts the team in general on days where Martins doesn't pull out a goal from somewhere, as he contributes pretty much nothing in terms of build-up play for the rest of the team. I'd much prefer a player who scores less goals and can actually play a bit of football and improve the team with what he offers as a whole, rather than a headless chicken who scores the odd wonder goal here and there. Martins still has time to improve, but I'm really not seeing any development in his awareness sadly. OK, but it sounds to me that you're not taking into consideration that he's being player out of position. And still doing alright with it anyhow. When he's been deployed down the middle this season, he's been clinical and his movement have been much improved in comparison to last season. See the City goal for evidence of improved finishing, movement and touch. You can throw the Spurs goal in there aswell. I'm tired of people saying he's not improving, because he is. And similarly with N'Zogbia, i think it'll help his development as an all-round player being played slightly out of position, because he'll have to learn new things. Where to move, when to time his runs, how to find a goalscoring position in the box (not that he's bad at that anyway), and so on. His awareness isn't particularly great but it has and will improve over the course of the season, providing he's playing of course. I'll never say he's a headless chicken because i just don't think he is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Owen and Viduka are far more intelligent footballers than Martins, but Owen is usually injured and Viduka has been unfit. They are both pretty slow these days as well, and if they are going to play instead of Martins, we'd have to play a different type of football away from home as there would be no chance of hitting teams on the break if we sat back. Don't disagree. And both have had 5+ more years in this league than him. Fairly sure Viduka's been in the game a decade longer than Martins has too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Martins isn't playing up front btw. If he's not doing the right things on the wing... that's because he's not a winger. It's also very difficult for him and Milner to create for a striker who cannot and will not be created for. If people think Martins is not good at getting into goalscoring positions, then God knows what their thoughts are on Alan Smith. All the games he's been up front for us, I don't think he's had a sodding shot yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Martins isn't playing up front btw. If he's not doing the right things on the wing... that's because he's not a winger. It's also very difficult for him and Milner to create for a striker who cannot and will not be created for. If people think Martins is not good at getting into goalscoring positions, then God knows what their thoughts are on Alan Smith. All the games he's been up front for us, I don't think he's had a sodding shot yet. absolutely if Owen was being played where Martins has been in the last few games he'd be twice as bad and Smith, he's been fucking abysmal, reminds me of James Beattie. Was his shot against Liverpool the only one he's had? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DubblyDubblyDubbly Posted December 16, 2007 Share Posted December 16, 2007 Errr it's a team game....that relies on most of the 11 playing well..... what wins games for turkeys like us is an outstanding individual piece of skill that results in a goal...usually from a striker not a supplier....you don't get that from turkeys.. you get it from Owen/Fatty/Oba/Smi....soz...typo. Top teams have mid-fielders that score goals...other than pens of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 He looked to be carrying something when he was taken off. Probably not serious like, he was whincing a bit beforehand though. Furney's comment made me laugh though:"He'll score a goal and everyone will think he's done enough." Well yeah, that's what i tend to expect from me strikers. 24 in 56 is ay-ok for me. Martins can be abysmal all game but if he gets a goal or two he'll be forgiven. Such is the life of a striker. It's fair enough, but you can both surely see that it severely hurts the team in general on days where Martins doesn't pull out a goal from somewhere, as he contributes pretty much nothing in terms of build-up play for the rest of the team. I'd much prefer a player who scores less goals and can actually play a bit of football and improve the team with what he offers as a whole, rather than a headless chicken who scores the odd wonder goal here and there. Martins still has time to improve, but I'm really not seeing any development in his awareness sadly. OK, but it sounds to me that you're not taking into consideration that he's being player out of position. And still doing alright with it anyhow. When he's been deployed down the middle this season, he's been clinical and his movement have been much improved in comparison to last season. See the City goal for evidence of improved finishing, movement and touch. You can throw the Spurs goal in there aswell. I'm tired of people saying he's not improving, because he is. And similarly with N'Zogbia, i think it'll help his development as an all-round player being played slightly out of position, because he'll have to learn new things. Where to move, when to time his runs, how to find a goalscoring position in the box (not that he's bad at that anyway), and so on. His awareness isn't particularly great but it has and will improve over the course of the season, providing he's playing of course. I'll never say he's a headless chicken because i just don't think he is. Did you read what Sir Les said about him on Setanta ? This is on nufc.com today if you want to check... basically, he says that Martins is NOT comfortable OR suited to playing 4-3-3, and enlarges on this by saying that he is not disciplined enough to fit the system as he keeps drifting inside... This has been one of my biggest problems about Martins - he is an instinctive type of player and these`players do NOT have the right mental attitude to be a success at the top level ; every so often they will produce a moment of magic, but will then proceed to miss easy chances etc because they do not have the necessary discipline to either play within a framework or to keep a cool head when necessary - in the 70s, there was the case of Duncan Mckenzie, who had amazing skills but never reached the top even though he was given a chance in one of Leeds' best teams..there was also Stan Bowles who could undo teams like you've never seen when he felt like it, but then disappeared into obscurity because of his ill-disciplined private life... Neither Owen NOR Martins are the answer to our striker problem - for entirely different reasons. Owen gets too many injuries, but if he didn't, would be one of the top scorers in the Prem, whereas Martins just hasn't got what it takes to be a top striker . If Les`Ferdinand is prepared to say it, that's confirmation enough for me that my doubts are justified, and for all those saying that Owen doesn't fit the system, this is confirmation that neither does Martins .. . He cannot play as a target man either - too small and individualistic - may be that is why NUFC is never successful - the fans seem to prefer moments of brilliance from erratic players than a disciplined team, which is the only way to bring success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 He looked to be carrying something when he was taken off. Probably not serious like, he was whincing a bit beforehand though. Furney's comment made me laugh though:"He'll score a goal and everyone will think he's done enough." Well yeah, that's what i tend to expect from me strikers. 24 in 56 is ay-ok for me. Martins can be abysmal all game but if he gets a goal or two he'll be forgiven. Such is the life of a striker. It's fair enough, but you can both surely see that it severely hurts the team in general on days where Martins doesn't pull out a goal from somewhere, as he contributes pretty much nothing in terms of build-up play for the rest of the team. I'd much prefer a player who scores less goals and can actually play a bit of football and improve the team with what he offers as a whole, rather than a headless chicken who scores the odd wonder goal here and there. Martins still has time to improve, but I'm really not seeing any development in his awareness sadly. OK, but it sounds to me that you're not taking into consideration that he's being player out of position. And still doing alright with it anyhow. When he's been deployed down the middle this season, he's been clinical and his movement have been much improved in comparison to last season. See the City goal for evidence of improved finishing, movement and touch. You can throw the Spurs goal in there aswell. I'm tired of people saying he's not improving, because he is. And similarly with N'Zogbia, i think it'll help his development as an all-round player being played slightly out of position, because he'll have to learn new things. Where to move, when to time his runs, how to find a goalscoring position in the box (not that he's bad at that anyway), and so on. His awareness isn't particularly great but it has and will improve over the course of the season, providing he's playing of course. I'll never say he's a headless chicken because i just don't think he is. Did you read what Sir Les said about him on Setanta ? This is on nufc.com today if you want to check... basically, he says that Martins is NOT comfortable OR suited to playing 4-3-3, and enlarges on this by saying that he is not disciplined enough to fit the system as he keeps drifting inside... This has been one of my biggest problems about Martins - he is an instinctive type of player and these`players do NOT have the right mental attitude to be a success at the top level ; every so often they will produce a moment of magic, but will then proceed to miss easy chances etc because they do not have the necessary discipline to either play within a framework or to keep a cool head when necessary - in the 70s, there was the case of Duncan Mckenzie, who had amazing skills but never reached the top even though he was given a chance in one of Leeds' best teams..there was also Stan Bowles who could undo teams like you've never seen when he felt like it, but then disappeared into obscurity because of his ill-disciplined private life... Neither Owen NOR Martins are the answer to our striker problem - for entirely different reasons. Owen gets too many injuries, but if he didn't, would be one of the top scorers in the Prem, whereas Martins just hasn't got what it takes to be a top striker . If Les`Ferdinand is prepared to say it, that's confirmation enough for me that my doubts are justified, and for all those saying that Owen doesn't fit the system, this is confirmation that neither does Martins .. . He cannot play as a target man either - too small and individualistic - may be that is why NUFC is never successful - the fans seem to prefer moments of brilliance from erratic players than a disciplined team, which is the only way to bring success. the fans in general may prefer that, but lets be honest, how many players have we had in the last 5 years capable of moments of brilliance, maybe 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/sport/2007/12/17/sfnful117.xml The game was so bad the worst player on view got the MOTM award. Pure shite journolism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. TC Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I thought Barton was OK personally. No MOTM but a million times as good as Geremi or Martins on the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I thought Barton was OK personally. No MOTM but a million times as good as Geremi or Martins on the day. To award anyone from either side a MOTM award then that in itself would be a travesty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slugsy Posted December 17, 2007 Share Posted December 17, 2007 I'm less concerned about attack as I am about our midfield - it stinks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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