How do we measure ambition?

[Mowen]

Results and performances, and the club's reaction to it.

 

Sums it up quite nicely, I think.

[James]

 

I think we need players who can mix it up. Passing/creativity is just one element, you need players with the speed and pace to carve holes into the opposition, you need players who can stick their foot in, you need two central midfielders who can attack and defend in tandem, and you need players who can dictate the tempo of the game.

 

Although we may need to upgrade Milner/Duff/N'Zogbia, our midfield has very good balance for the 442 system we intend to use, and the creative midfielder people are wanting would be as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

Our midfield is one dimensional and will get run ragged by the better teams as we are lacking both pace and creativity.  Our central midfield is our weakest position when we can put out our first 11 as I don't think a pairing of two from Butt, Smith, Faye, Guthrie and Barton is good enough and will be walked straight through as we'll.  If we play 4-4-2 with those in the middle then we'll need our wingers to play well every game or we'll struggle to make use of our forwards.

 

To say the creative midfield player people are wanting would be as useful as a chocolate teapot is totally wrong.

 

I believe Gutierrez has the pace and skill to disrupt the other side, creating spaces that will make it much easier for others to pick out a good attack-minded pass.

 

 

Barton and Guthrie will be perfect.

 

Barton and Guthrie will be perfect at what?

 

I think they'd make a good tandem. Both can attack and defend, both have a good engine, and both can together bring a new dimension to the team.

[chicago_shearer]

So you don't think we need more creativity in midfield then?

 

I think we need players who can mix it up. Passing/creativity is just one element, you need players with the speed and pace to carve holes into the opposition, you need players who can stick their foot in, you need two central midfielders who can attack and defend in tandem, and you need players who can dictate the tempo of the game.

 

Although we may need to upgrade Milner/Duff/N'Zogbia, our midfield has very good balance for the 442 system we intend to use, and the creative midfielder people are wanting would be as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

We don't have that.  So how can our midfield have "good balance"?

 

Barton and Guthrie will be perfect.

 

This is a thread about ambition, and you are happy depending on a player that struggled for form even before his two criminal convictions until halfway through the season (even then then wasn't spectacular) paired with a somewhat promising but by no means exceptional youngster who had a solid, unaccomplished season on loan at Bolton? 

 

Barton will likely be suspended for anywhere from 6 weeks to half a season depending on how much the F.A. hate us.  So what we'll probably see is Butt & Guthrie.  And quite honestly, there would be Fulham and Bolton supporters who wouldn't be happy with that as their first choice.

 

[James]

So you don't think we need more creativity in midfield then?

 

I think we need players who can mix it up. Passing/creativity is just one element, you need players with the speed and pace to carve holes into the opposition, you need players who can stick their foot in, you need two central midfielders who can attack and defend in tandem, and you need players who can dictate the tempo of the game.

 

Although we may need to upgrade Milner/Duff/N'Zogbia, our midfield has very good balance for the 442 system we intend to use, and the creative midfielder people are wanting would be as useful as a chocolate teapot.

 

We don't have that.  So how can our midfield have "good balance"?

 

Barton and Guthrie will be perfect.

 

This is a thread about ambition, and you are happy depending on a player that struggled for form even before his two criminal convictions until halfway through the season (even then then wasn't spectacular) paired with a somewhat promising but by no means exceptional youngster who had a solid, unaccomplished season on loan at Bolton? 

 

Barton will likely be suspended for anywhere from 6 weeks to half a season depending on how much the F.A. hate us.  So what we'll probably see is Butt & Guthrie.  And quite honestly, there would be Fulham and Bolton supporters who wouldn't be happy with that as their first choice.

 

 

Barton had less than two months on the pitch after suffering a broken foot (a very difficult injury to come back from in form, see Rooney, Beckham and others), and after a stint in jail, was one of the best players in Keegan's team.

[midds]

Barton and Guthrie in CM isn't going to scare any of the top 10 teams imo. Workmanlike and tidy but they're not going to win a game against a decent side.

[Mick]

 

I believe Gutierrez has the pace and skill to disrupt the other side, creating spaces that will make it much easier for others to pick out a good attack-minded pass.

 

 

Excellent, as long as we can work around one player we'll be OK.  That will not work for longer than a few minutes because if Gutierrez does well and shines then he'll get marked or kicked out of games.  We need to offer more than that as a team, if not then we'll struggle, especially away from home when we're under pressure.

 

 

I think they'd make a good tandem. Both can attack and defend, both have a good engine, and both can together bring a new dimension to the team.

 

Both are so slow that the opposition will be able to take a break if those two are running at them from a deep position.  Barton has scored something like 1 goal every 9 or 10 games and Guthrie hasn't scored a competitive goal yet so those two will offer next to nothing in terms of goals.  We'll probably have at least 1 defender who will outscore one of those, possibly both.

[sicsfingeredmong]

This endless 'we need a midfield playmaker' nonsense is complete fantasy.

 

That throwaway line is complete nonsense, to borrow your own phrasing. 442, 433..... either way imo. And you're placing a ton of faith in young Guthrie, he'll really have to step up to the plate immediately by your estimation. As a player he is still very much a project type, a work in progress. Guthrie's potential impact, or contribution within either system, at this stage cannot be accurately guaged as a way of dismissing the notion 'that we need a midfield playmaker' in the Elano type of mould.

 

Upfront with our three pronged attack we lack a pure 'in-the-hole playmaker' in the Beardsley mould. Playing in behind the target-man, and thus breaking away from theclose man-marking shackles for which he is normally accustomed to and no longer capable of dealing with, compliments Owen's off-the-ball smarts. In the current formation, against lesser able competition, how often have we seen Owen ghost his way into the box unchecked? The answer is many times. While Martins offers a long-distance shooting and dribbling threat he lacks the guile/short & deft passing game & vision to spot and release his deeper playing forward ie. Owen.

 

Admittedley our front 3 carved up the lesser likes on the table, but against a cohesive & disciplined outfield - ie. for example with a top drawer deep playing DM patrolling the hole to diffuse the combined threat Owen & Martins pose -  which can maintain their shape over the course of 90 minutes we'll continue to look pedestrian against the top echelon, or close clubs who are thereabouts, without a deeper ball-playing threat across the midfield line. At this in point in time, looking at the midfield ranks, we lack explosiveness and the sort of instinctive unpredictablity the top sides have, and as such we're not a sideline-to-sideline attacking unit.

 

With question marks hanging over Viduka's durability, combined with Ameobi & Smith's unproductivity, it would be foolish for Keegan for base his 4-3-3 attacking impetus on haviing his fullbacks & wide operating attacking midefielders - ie. Spiderman - bomb forward supplying crosses into the box.

 

To base his attacking strategy solely on width would be shortsighted and extremely one-dimensional, just as was the case a few years back with SBR when Shearer was no longer capable, or showing signs of anyway, of getting onto & converting the ammunition fired from the flanks by Robert and Solano ie. 03/04, and to a lesser extent in 02/03 when the warning signs first began to emerge with regards to Shearer's diminishing mobility & energy reserves. Dyer's non-development played a part, but the as mentioned style of play adopted by SBR - ie. in his final 2 season here - heralded his undoing imo.

[Guest ObaStar]

This endless 'we need a midfield playmaker' nonsense is complete fantasy.

 

how so?

 

Because successful teams have never had these fantasy players, and yet people on here think that signing Elano will have a dramatic effect. It won't.

 

 

Are u for realzy??? Every successful team had a "fantasy player" it was built around. Last 4 Champions league winners:

Man Utd: Ronaldo

Ac Milan: Kaka

Barca: Ronaldinho

Liverpool: Gerrard

 

 

 

Real and Chelsea have 11 fantasy players, Zenit is built around Arshavin, Arsenal had Henry then Fabregas, Valencia have Silva

I could go on...

Almost every successful team has a central player that they build the team around. At the end of the season for us it was Owen. However if we play 442 it needs to be a midfielder.

[sicsfingeredmong]

This endless 'we need a midfield playmaker' nonsense is complete fantasy.

 

how so?

 

Because successful teams have never had these fantasy players, and yet people on here think that signing Elano will have a dramatic effect. It won't.

 

 

Are u for realzy??? Every successful team had a "fantasy player" it was built around. Last 4 Champions league winners:

Man Utd: Ronaldo

Ac Milan: Kaka

Barca: Ronaldinho

Liverpool: Gerrard

 

 

 

Real and Chelsea have 11 fantasy players, Zenit is built around Arshavin, Arsenal had Henry then Fabregas, Valencia have Silva

I could go on...

Almost every successful team has a central player that they build the team around. At the end of the season for us it was Owen. However if we play 442 it needs to be a midfielder.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

And Ferguson, at varying stages in a game, provides Ronaldo license & freedom to roam across the midfield line ie. the 'fantasy player', or the luxury type. Much of Man United's effectiveness, or it's ability to swing a game when a result is in the balance, eminates from Ferguson's useage of Ronaldo which never gives the defending outfield the same look, and thus player mismatches and structural questions are often posed. Ferguson has outstanding individuals at his disposal - ie. the likes of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney - and their ability as footballers plays a part, but much of the damage inflicted by United's outfield is the result of their opposition being unable to suddenly adapt to & handle United's attacking/structural change-ups.

 

 

 

[OzzieMandias]

It's like trying to read one of those Google translations.

[Mr Logic]

 

 

Barton will likely be suspended for anywhere from 6 weeks to half a season depending on how much the F.A. hate us.  So what we'll probably see is Butt & Guthrie.  And quite honestly, there would be Fulham and Bolton supporters who wouldn't be happy with that as their first choice.

 

 

The FA are going to be on thin ice if they hammer Barton and ignore Thaksin.

[themanupstairs]

 

 

Barton will likely be suspended for anywhere from 6 weeks to half a season depending on how much the F.A. hate us.  So what we'll probably see is Butt & Guthrie.  And quite honestly, there would be Fulham and Bolton supporters who wouldn't be happy with that as their first choice.

 

 

The FA are going to be on thin ice if they hammer Barton and ignore Thaksin.

 

the FA are cunts

[madras]

This endless 'we need a midfield playmaker' nonsense is complete fantasy.

 

how so?

 

Because successful teams have never had these fantasy players, and yet people on here think that signing Elano will have a dramatic effect. It won't.

 

 

Are u for realzy??? Every successful team had a "fantasy player" it was built around. Last 4 Champions league winners:

Man Utd: Ronaldo

Ac Milan: Kaka

Barca: Ronaldinho

Liverpool: Gerrard

 

 

 

Real and Chelsea have 11 fantasy players, Zenit is built around Arshavin, Arsenal had Henry then Fabregas, Valencia have Silva

I could go on...

Almost every successful team has a central player that they build the team around. At the end of the season for us it was Owen. However if we play 442 it needs to be a midfielder.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

And Ferguson, at varying stages in a game, provides Ronaldo license & freedom to roam across the midfield line ie. the 'fantasy player', or the luxury type. Much of Man United's effectiveness, or it's ability to swing a game when a result is in the balance, eminates from Ferguson's useage of Ronaldo which never gives the defending outfield the same look, and thus player mismatches and structural questions are often posed. Ferguson has outstanding individuals at his disposal - ie. the likes of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney - and their ability as footballers plays a part, but much of the damage inflicted by United's outfield is the result of their opposition being unable to suddenly adapt to & handle United's attacking/structural change-ups.

 

 

 

ferguson gives all of his players freedom tpo roam as he signs and educates players to use space and cover for others moves.95% of man utd's games is about movement and doing the basics well.

[themanupstairs]

This endless 'we need a midfield playmaker' nonsense is complete fantasy.

 

how so?

 

Because successful teams have never had these fantasy players, and yet people on here think that signing Elano will have a dramatic effect. It won't.

 

 

Are u for realzy??? Every successful team had a "fantasy player" it was built around. Last 4 Champions league winners:

Man Utd: Ronaldo

Ac Milan: Kaka

Barca: Ronaldinho

Liverpool: Gerrard

 

 

 

Real and Chelsea have 11 fantasy players, Zenit is built around Arshavin, Arsenal had Henry then Fabregas, Valencia have Silva

I could go on...

Almost every successful team has a central player that they build the team around. At the end of the season for us it was Owen. However if we play 442 it needs to be a midfielder.

 

Absolutely correct.

 

And Ferguson, at varying stages in a game, provides Ronaldo license & freedom to roam across the midfield line ie. the 'fantasy player', or the luxury type. Much of Man United's effectiveness, or it's ability to swing a game when a result is in the balance, eminates from Ferguson's useage of Ronaldo which never gives the defending outfield the same look, and thus player mismatches and structural questions are often posed. Ferguson has outstanding individuals at his disposal - ie. the likes of Ronaldo, Tevez, Rooney - and their ability as footballers plays a part, but much of the damage inflicted by United's outfield is the result of their opposition being unable to suddenly adapt to & handle United's attacking/structural change-ups.

 

 

 

ferguson gives all of his players freedom tpo roam as he signs and educates players to use space and cover for others moves.95% of man utd's games is about movement and doing the basics well.

 

absolutely. the way man utd play is an expanded version of 5-a-side football. nowt more, nowt less. add to that the mental strength and motivation instilled in the players by ferguson, and sir bob's your uncle

[Unlucky Luque]

Kilograms.

[madras]

ambitionometer

[Shearergol]

Only just seen this thread. James, you are a complete and utter mong. If you're doing it as a joke you're doing a great job

[Guest Howaythetoon]

True ambition for me is exhausting every possible avenue to achieve and succeed a desire.

[mrmojorisin75]

True ambition for me is exhausting every possible avenue to achieve and succeed a desire.

dude, haven't you read the brochure?

 

it's either net spend or greggs pies...none of your existential shit!!!

 

[Thespence]

A feeling from within I guess rather than anything else.

 

Do I personally see Guthrie as an ambitious signing? No. He may turn out to be an astute or a bargain signing but for me he will never be ambitious signing. Do I see Jonas as an ambitious signing ? Yes. He was the winger for the chap who scored the most goals in La Liga last year.

 

 

 

[Unbelievable]

The mind boggles after reading this thread, especially James' "contributions".. Ambition is fielding a midfield of Barton and Guthrie.. I don't know whether to laugh or cry..

[mrmojorisin75]

The mind boggles after reading this thread, especially James' "contributions".. Ambition is fielding a midfield of Barton and Guthrie.. I don't know whether to laugh or cry..

self harm, covers all bases, no other option to some of the shit on here

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ambition can't be measured by the signing of Guthrie nor any other player really, not fully anyway. Its about goals and going out to try and achieve, succeed or even overachieve. Nothing to me suggests that Newcastle are not an ambitious club. Could we be more ambitious? Maybe so but we have to temper that with realism and resources. In the mag that Ashley gave his interview to, KK also speaks and how is this for ambition: He talks about the league title, how every club including Newcastle would love to win it but we are not in a position to do so like we once were when he was here first time around, and that fans would see past talk of titles and so on and rightly so. But his ambition is to one day go for the title again, and he talks about first building the club up to a level where we can go for it. I'm more than satisfied by that kind of ambition.

[Unbelievable]

Ambition can't be measured by the signing of Guthrie nor any other player really, not fully anyway. Its about goals and going out to try and achieve, succeed or even overachieve. Nothing to me suggests that Newcastle are not an ambitious club. Could we be more ambitious? Maybe so but we have to temper that with realism and resources. In the mag that Ashley gave his interview to, KK also speaks and how is this for ambition: He talks about the league title, how every club including Newcastle would love to win it but we are not in a position to do so like we once were when he was here first time around, and that fans would see past talk of titles and so on and rightly so. But his ambition is to one day go for the title again, and he talks about first building the club up to a level where we can go for it. I'm more than satisfied by that kind of ambition.

 

The goal we seem to have set ourselves is 4th to 8th, which I would qualify as a very ambitious target in our current predicament. Ambition is more than just setting a goal though, it is, as you say, going out to achieve or better that goal, and this is where we are currently seemingly struggling..

[sicsfingeredmong]

It's like trying to read one of those Google translations.

 

Having absolutely no sense of humour at all i'll assume that's directed at my post/s, and as usual yours is another mindnumbingly stupid contribution to a thread.

 

If so you have very little idea as to how a manager can play a role from the guf-out in altering the tempo, pattern of play etc when a result hangs in the balance  dug-out - whether that be at half-time or as Madras inferrs 'the manager's coaching ideology as to how much freedom he allows his matchwinners in accordance with their ability play anywhere across the defensive line, and this originates from the training ground as well. This comes into effect when when two well coached midfield/outfield units are cancelling each other out in the engine room. Or would you rather the manager sitting in the hotseat and biting their fingernails while hoping the result swings the team's way with just a little help from Lady Luck as per our former manager you backed to the hilt ie. Souness.