West Ham agree fee in region of £15m with Liverpool for Andy Carroll

[johnnypd]

 

What we are seemingly trying to do is bring Carroll back on a season long loan, with an option to buy at our discretion if reports are to be believed. It's hardly shelling out a huge fee in that context; it could be construed as the exact opposite: we get a quality striker for a nominal loan fee and if he turns out to be a success we have an option to bring him in on a pre-agreed fee just when the new TV money kicks in, allowing us to use this year's budget in other positions that need strengthening.

 

As to where he fits in the side? I think he would be one of our 3 main strikers who would be played in a 442 or 433 depending on the opposition or the situation in a game. As such he would get plenty of game time, but wouldn't necessarily be an automatic starter.

 

as i said, i'd take him on a loan, but even then, there would still be a hint of uneasiness from us until i could see how Pardew planned to line us up this season. fwiw im not sure Carroll has enough in his locker to lead the line on his own - he always looked better paired with shola.

 

Again, we're talking about a loan fee in the first instance. I'm perfectly comfortable with us seeing how it pans out and paying £12-13m if he manager to recapture his previous form with us and proves a good fit in the squad. I don't see why anybody wouldn't, as we can't really lose. If he doesn't hit those heights or kicks up a fuss we send him packing.

 

Agreed. however, i'm a bit wary of the fact that Carroll isn't just any old player. i remember some of shearer's final years and how being such an icon wasn't always to the advantage of the team as a whole - especially when we had Bellamy carted out. Now that's not a slight on Shearer, i love the man, and I loved Carroll here and probably rate him higher than most forumers do - but i am uneasy about this kind of marquee, iconic move for someone who is not going to be first choice.

 

Secondly, as explained above, he would hardly be a back up option from the bench in my opinion, especially considering we're looking at potentially 55+ matches and he brings something very different to the table that may come in handy in specific situations where our plan A doesn't work (either based on Pardew's pre-match analysis or how it pans out on the pitch).

 

Sure, if he comes in off the bench in 20 odd games and starts 6 or 7 in a 4-4-2 in tailored matchesalong with cup and european games then i'd be fine with that. just not sure that's worth a potentially large fee.

 

I'm not overly concerned about this to be honest. Firstly because he's a much better footballer than some on here give him credit for, secondly because this team set up and how it contrasts with how we've played earlier in the season or even when Carroll was here is massively overplayed. I seriously can't see how Cabaye, Cisse and Ben Arfa suddenly could no longer play to the best of their ability with Carroll in the squad. Maybe you could explain to me how this would work?

 

Put it this way, i'd rather spend a big fee on a Remy type (not saying him in particular) player than Carroll - a player who is both good enough to directly challenge any of our front three AND fit into a pre-existing system. If we need another brute up front to go with Shola, let's try and get one on the cheap. I see our first team forward line with Carroll as something like this:

 

Ba        Cisse            Ben Arfa

            Ba

          Carroll

          Shola (supersub/mackem slayer)

 

It's clear where the gaps are, as i consider Marv and Jonas, players now older or curtailed by injury, to be more effective in the middle 3rd of the pitch. A Remy type player on the other hand looks more like this:

 

Ba            Cisse        Ben Arfa

Remy        Ba            Remy

                Remy

                Shola

 

 

[Guest bimpy474]

Would still probably need a central striker if we signed someone "like" Sinclair.

 

That Ba and Cisse surely ?

[Guest bimpy474]

I'd pick Ba and Cisse. Not even an argument to be made for me. We were catapulted from nowhere by those two, they're exceptional at scoring every type of goal, link up play, everything. Can't believe anyone who watched the Premier League and NUFC last year would want to go back.

 

You're making it sound like we're trading the pair for Carroll if we do a deal. Going back FFS..

 

So you accept that when they're both fit and available (did either have a single injury last season), he sits on the bench?

 

 

If Pardew feels a starting formation of 433 is the best way to go, yeah probably. How many times has that happened last season?

 

You'd seriously drop Ba or Cisse for him in a 4-4-2?

 

All about opinions but i think that's barmy.

 

I would rotate them, not saying with Carroll but with whoever we might sign, they simply cant play every game.

[Ikon]

Not sure we'll play Ba on the left even if we don't sign Carroll, probably gonna go 4-4-2 And that's why he probably wants another quality striker.

[Unbelievable]

We clearly need another striker but imo should be looking for someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3 because both Ba and Cisse can play at the tip but we don't have many options either side past Ba and HBA.

 

We also don't have wide players or full backs who can deliver a cross.

 

Nothing about Carroll fits our game now IMO.

 

It's easy to suggest "someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3", it's proved a lot harder to actually come up with a name that's a major improvement over what we have and who is willing to come here. It looks like Hoilett's just turned us down for crying out loud, so I would like to challenge you: name names.

 

Also, you seem to have fallen face first for the "tall = needs crosses" fallacy. Thought you were better than that.

 

Of course Carroll needs crosses. I thought you were bigging him up on the basis of how he played for NUFC first time round. His aerial prowess was about £30m worth of that £35m.

 

You were suggesting crosses from the wide areas in open play were you not, seeing as you mentioned full backs and wide players? How many times in a match do we get an opportunity to swing a set piece (corner or free kick) in the box? 10? 15? How effective have we been in converting these half chances last season? Not very, have we? I can only remember a Ba header for a corner. Also, most of his goals for us in the Premiership didn't come from crosses. You must have forgotten about his sweet left foot. To suggest Carroll is all about crosses is completely misunderstanding what he is about. No wonder you are so dead against this move.

 

I also notice you have once again ignored my question of who else you'd get that we could realistically attract and who would be a more effective addition to our current range of forwards?

[Ikon]

Would still probably need a central striker if we signed someone "like" Sinclair.

 

That Ba and Cisse surely ?

 

What about the ACON?

[Guest bimpy474]

Would still probably need a central striker if we signed someone "like" Sinclair.

 

That Ba and Cisse surely ?

 

What about the ACON?

 

Ameobi twins 

[Guest bimpy474]

Not sure we'll play Ba on the left even if we don't sign Carroll, probably gonna go 4-4-2 And that's why he probably wants another quality striker.

 

I really hope not, its take 30% of Cabaye's game away when we play that way.

[Ikon]

Would still probably need a central striker if we signed someone "like" Sinclair.

 

That Ba and Cisse surely ?

 

What about the ACON?

 

Ameobi twins 

 

[Guest bimpy474]

Would still probably need a central striker if we signed someone "like" Sinclair.

 

That Ba and Cisse surely ?

 

What about the ACON?

 

Ameobi twins 

 

 

[Ikon]

Not sure we'll play Ba on the left even if we don't sign Carroll, probably gonna go 4-4-2 And that's why he probably wants another quality striker.

 

I really hope not, its take 30% of Cabaye's game away when we play that way.

 

I agree, but going by Pardew's comments about giving Ba a more central role

[Unbelievable]

I'd pick Ba and Cisse. Not even an argument to be made for me. We were catapulted from nowhere by those two, they're exceptional at scoring every type of goal, link up play, everything. Can't believe anyone who watched the Premier League and NUFC last year would want to go back.

 

You're making it sound like we're trading the pair for Carroll if we do a deal. Going back FFS..

 

So you accept that when they're both fit and available (did either have a single injury last season), he sits on the bench?

 

 

If Pardew feels a starting formation of 433 is the best way to go, yeah probably. How many times has that happened last season?

 

You'd seriously drop Ba or Cisse for him in a 4-4-2?

 

All about opinions but i think that's barmy.

 

Yes, in a flash. Seeing what Ameobi or Best's (relatively decent) target man play did to Demba Ba and just imaging a lethal striker feeding of knock downs from Carroll as well as Carroll and either of them working the through balls from the likes of Cabaye and Ben Arfa would have me quite excited. From what I've seen so far, Ba and Cisse seem excellent at their own specialist area, but I'm not convinced they work so well as a parnership. Early days though, but I can certainly see the potential in either of them being partnered to Carroll.

[Wullie]

We clearly need another striker but imo should be looking for someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3 because both Ba and Cisse can play at the tip but we don't have many options either side past Ba and HBA.

 

We also don't have wide players or full backs who can deliver a cross.

 

Nothing about Carroll fits our game now IMO.

 

It's easy to suggest "someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3", it's proved a lot harder to actually come up with a name that's a major improvement over what we have and who is willing to come here. It looks like Hoilett's just turned us down for crying out loud, so I would like to challenge you: name names.

 

Also, you seem to have fallen face first for the "tall = needs crosses" fallacy. Thought you were better than that.

 

Of course Carroll needs crosses. I thought you were bigging him up on the basis of how he played for NUFC first time round. His aerial prowess was about £30m worth of that £35m.

 

You were suggesting crosses from the wide areas in open play were you not, seeing as you mentioned full backs and wide players? How many times in a match do we get an opportunity to swing a set piece (corner or free kick) in the box? 10? 15? How effective have we been in converting these half chances last season? Not very, have we? I can only remember a Ba header for a corner. Also, most of his goals for us in the Premiership didn't come from crosses. You must have forgotten about his sweet left foot. To suggest Carroll is all about crosses is completely misunderstanding what he is about. No wonder you are so dead against this move.

 

I also notice you have once again ignored my question of who else you'd get that we could realistically attract and who would be a more effective addition to our current range of forwards?

 

Dunno, I didn't know about the availability of Cabaye, Ben Arfa, Cisse, Santon, Tiote...

 

Isn't that what Graham Carr is supposed to specialise in?

 

Yes he does have a good left foot but his aerial game is most definitely the biggest and best part of his game and our players all play their best stuff on the floor. His movement for example is not as lumbering as some of his displays last season suggested but compared to Ba and Cisse, it is infinitely worse than both when the likes of Cabaye, HBA, Jonas, are looking to slide a pass.

[Guest bimpy474]

Not sure we'll play Ba on the left even if we don't sign Carroll, probably gonna go 4-4-2 And that's why he probably wants another quality striker.

 

I really hope not, its take 30% of Cabaye's game away when we play that way.

 

I agree, but going by Pardew's comments about giving Ba a more central role

 

Well i suppose we can play without wingers (not a conventional 4-4-2). Man City play two up without wingers. That why i find it rather baffling Pards hasn't tried other systems in the first two friendlies. Maybe he's waiting until its more or less his first 11 before he tries things.

[Ikon]

Where does that put Ben Arfa?

[Mole_Toonfan]

Yup, one of the problems had been folk suggesting the pacey striker who can play wide but who? Not even those who hammer Champ Man and watch ESPN 24/7 have been able to come up with this ideal player.

 

I have mentioned Dembele and Guidetti. It's a tough thing to suggest mainly because a lot of wide-forwards are already at CL clubs and starting for them.

 

Tbh the more i think about it if we are looking for a 3rd choice striker, he might have to be a CF and not someone to play wide.

 

If we rotate Ba with anyone we might as well rotate him with a winger and if both Ba and Cisse go to AFCON we have no CF.

 

So it might make sense just to buy a 3rd choice CF to rotate with Cisse and have Ba rotating with the likes of Marveaux.

 

The problem arises because we need someone good enough to come in and the drop off in quality to not be too big and willing to accept some bench time.

 

I could name a few people but i'm unsure how many would accept periods on the bench.

[ponsaelius]

We clearly need another striker but imo should be looking for someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3 because both Ba and Cisse can play at the tip but we don't have many options either side past Ba and HBA.

 

We also don't have wide players or full backs who can deliver a cross.

 

Nothing about Carroll fits our game now IMO.

 

It's easy to suggest "someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3", it's proved a lot harder to actually come up with a name that's a major improvement over what we have and who is willing to come here. It looks like Hoilett's just turned us down for crying out loud, so I would like to challenge you: name names.

 

Also, you seem to have fallen face first for the "tall = needs crosses" fallacy. Thought you were better than that.

 

Of course Carroll needs crosses. I thought you were bigging him up on the basis of how he played for NUFC first time round. His aerial prowess was about £30m worth of that £35m.

 

People should watch his goals back. I got mocked for analysing the type of the goals he scored for us. How many of them were running onto through balls through clever movement? Finishes with either foot when in on goal? How many goals of that type has he scored for Liverpool?

 

Fact is for Carroll to be successful he does need crosses into the box. Played into dangerous areas from the wings or from set pieces, they are his bread and butter and if you build your team around them then he will score goals and be a good player as he proved with us. Yes he has a decent touch and shooting technique which is overlooked because of his size, but one thing he's never had is intelligent movement or an ability to run onto through balls, drags defenders about etc. That is not 'big man snobbishness' that is just fact and probably the main reason why Rodgers is dumping him at Liverpool.

 

I'm with you all the way Wullie. I don't think he fits and I don't think he's worth it as a bench option.

 

[Guest bimpy474]

Where does that put Ben Arfa?

 

Free role....David Silva style.......not that Pards would go for it, imo.

[Tooj]

Can't agree more with Wullie and Sewelly on this one.

[Wullie]

Aye Sewelly - his game's not all about crosses but his "great end of season form" is made up of a header against Everton, a header against Chelsea, a header against Blackburn and a header against Sweden. Laughable to say that's not his game. It is and he's bloody good at it on his day but it's not ours.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Where does that put Ben Arfa?

 

Free role....David Silva style.......not that Pards would go for it, imo.

 

City's system is a 4-2-2-2 with fullbacks pushing on with Nasri and Silva floating. with the signing of Debuchy and Anita we could pull this off tbh.

 

Have Anita and Tiote in the holding roles and Cabaye and Ben Arfa in the Nasri and Silva roles.

 

Pards wouldn't do it, but it's something with those signings would allow us to do, which we couldn't before with Simpson and Raylor as fullbacks.

[Guest bimpy474]

We clearly need another striker but imo should be looking for someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3 because both Ba and Cisse can play at the tip but we don't have many options either side past Ba and HBA.

 

We also don't have wide players or full backs who can deliver a cross.

 

Nothing about Carroll fits our game now IMO.

 

It's easy to suggest "someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3", it's proved a lot harder to actually come up with a name that's a major improvement over what we have and who is willing to come here. It looks like Hoilett's just turned us down for crying out loud, so I would like to challenge you: name names.

 

Also, you seem to have fallen face first for the "tall = needs crosses" fallacy. Thought you were better than that.

 

Of course Carroll needs crosses. I thought you were bigging him up on the basis of how he played for NUFC first time round. His aerial prowess was about £30m worth of that £35m.

 

People should watch his goals back. I got mocked for analysing the type of the goals he scored for us. How many of them were running onto through balls through clever movement? Finishes with either foot when in on goal? How many goals of that type has he scored for Liverpool?

 

Fact is for Carroll to be successful he does need crosses into the box. Played into dangerous areas from the wings or from set pieces, they are his bread and butter and if you build your team around them then he will score goals and be a good player as he proved with us. Yes he has a decent touch and shooting technique which is overlooked because of his size, but one thing he's never had is intelligent movement or an ability to run onto through balls, drags defenders about etc. That is not 'big man snobbishness' that is just fact and probably the main reason why Rodgers is dumping him at Liverpool.

 

I'm with you all the way Wullie. I don't think he fits and I don't think he's worth it as a bench option.

 

 

Agreed but he didn't have Cabaye or Ben Arfa looking to find him, he had Alan Smith, Nolan or Routledge.....just saying.

[Beren]

Yup, one of the problems had been folk suggesting the pacey striker who can play wide but who? Not even those who hammer Champ Man and watch ESPN 24/7 have been able to come up with this ideal player.

 

I have mentioned Dembele and Guidetti. It's a tough thing to suggest mainly because a lot of wide-forwards are already at CL clubs and starting for them.

 

Would love Dembele here.

 

Not sure just for the following either:

 

Demba Ba  Demba Cisse  Dembele

 

His scoring record isn't brilliant, but he brings so much by way of link-up play and composure on the ball. Really gifted and flamboyant player IMO.

[Guest bimpy474]

Where does that put Ben Arfa?

 

Free role....David Silva style.......not that Pards would go for it, imo.

 

City's system is a 4-2-2-2 with fullbacks pushing on with Nasri and Silva floating. with the signing of Debuchy and Anita we could pull this off tbh.

 

Have Anita and Tiote in the holding roles and Cabaye and Ben Arfa in the Nasri and Silva roles.

 

Pards wouldn't do it, but it's something with those signings would allow us to do, which we couldn't before with Simpson and Raylor as fullbacks.

 

You got it spot on mate, exactly how would like us to go. If you match the player for player then it would work for me.

 

De Jong/Tiote, Barry/Anita, Toure/Cabaye, Silva/Ben Arfa, Ba/Balotelli and Aguero/Cisse.....cant see why not.

[Unbelievable]

We clearly need another striker but imo should be looking for someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3 because both Ba and Cisse can play at the tip but we don't have many options either side past Ba and HBA.

 

We also don't have wide players or full backs who can deliver a cross.

 

Nothing about Carroll fits our game now IMO.

 

It's easy to suggest "someone pacey and able to operate wide in the 4-3-3", it's proved a lot harder to actually come up with a name that's a major improvement over what we have and who is willing to come here. It looks like Hoilett's just turned us down for crying out loud, so I would like to challenge you: name names.

 

Also, you seem to have fallen face first for the "tall = needs crosses" fallacy. Thought you were better than that.

 

Of course Carroll needs crosses. I thought you were bigging him up on the basis of how he played for NUFC first time round. His aerial prowess was about £30m worth of that £35m.

 

You were suggesting crosses from the wide areas in open play were you not, seeing as you mentioned full backs and wide players? How many times in a match do we get an opportunity to swing a set piece (corner or free kick) in the box? 10? 15? How effective have we been in converting these half chances last season? Not very, have we? I can only remember a Ba header for a corner. Also, most of his goals for us in the Premiership didn't come from crosses. You must have forgotten about his sweet left foot. To suggest Carroll is all about crosses is completely misunderstanding what he is about. No wonder you are so dead against this move.

 

I also notice you have once again ignored my question of who else you'd get that we could realistically attract and who would be a more effective addition to our current range of forwards?

 

Dunno, I didn't know about the availability of Cabaye, Ben Arfa, Cisse, Santon, Tiote...

 

Isn't that what Graham Carr is supposed to specialise in?

 

Yes he does have a good left foot but his aerial game is most definitely the biggest and best part of his game and our players all play their best stuff on the floor. His movement for example is not as lumbering as some of his displays last season suggested but compared to Ba and Cisse, it is infinitely worse than both when the likes of Cabaye, HBA, Jonas, are looking to slide a pass.

 

As I said in reply to johnnypd ealier, maybe the fact we are in for Carroll is an indication that we have been unable to unearth another gem for the forward line. Your Cisse's don't grow on trees you know?

 

Look, I fully trust Carr, Pardew and even Mike by now to do what's best for the club. If they are in for Carroll it suggests to me they think he represents the best piece of business of (or maybe even over) the forwards we have identified as priorities this summer (on our terms, i.e. loan deal with option to buy). I can see their reasoning, you can't which is fine. I hope we manage to find somebody better value and who fits our current assets better. I'm not sure that player exists however..