Hillsborough

[Heake]

The Liverpool fans surged forward into an area that was, effectively, a death trap.

 

Had they not done so, there would have been no tragedy. No loss of life etc.

 

The polices / authourites involvement offers mitigation to the supporters, but does not alter the fact that had there been no surging in the crowds entering the stadium, there would have been no tragedy.

 

The most pertinent pint here is NOT that they behaved badly, they behaved as everyone up and down the country did at the time, its that the situation wasnt managed properly.

 

I have my feelings on LFC on record here, but I still feel its in pretty poor taste to focus on the supporters behaviour, given the latest revelations.

[Guest icemanblue]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

 

Where does it say that?

 

Heard it several times on Sky news yesterday. Had it on all day. 'Fans were not drunk' 'there were no drunk fans in the ground'

 

Nah, you're making this up, like. The term used was 'excessively drunk'.

[OzzieMandias]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

 

Where does it say that?

 

Heard it several times on Sky news yesterday. Had it on all day. 'Fans were not drunk' 'there were no drunk fans in the ground'

 

You said the report said it. If so, it should be easy to provide a link to the relevant bit.

 

But actually, no, you apparently just misunderstood something said on Sky.

[Dokko]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

 

Where does it say that?

 

Heard it several times on Sky news yesterday. Had it on all day. 'Fans were not drunk' 'there were no drunk fans in the ground'

 

You said the report said it. If so, it should be easy to provide a link to the relevant bit.

 

But actually, no, you apparently just misunderstood something said on Sky.

 

They were taking it from the report summary where it said 'No evidence to support police account that fans were drunk and aggressive'

 

No evidence to say the fans were drunk...so i guess no alcohol touched lips that day then.

 

 

 

 

[BlueStar]

I'd read that to mean they weren't drunk and aggressive.  So some may have been drunk, but not aggressive.

[Dokko]

I'd read that to mean they weren't drunk and aggressive.  So some may have been drunk, but not aggressive.

 

So no one was aggressive at a 80s football match but were drunk while not being able to get in to a game they paid to see?

 

Ok. Fine, its all clear in my head now what happened, it makes absolutely no sense (like the original report) but the and clears it all up for me.

[Dokko]

Anyway I'm not getting in to this any further, this is the kind of situation which leads me to the house of banned and Mike has a tenner on me before xmas.

 

All i will say is that it was right to question the first report, so why can you not question this one? Both reports were made to appease certain sections of the public imho, the biased report first time round to clear the police and blame the fans, and this time its the other way round. This one rings far more true, but the complete lack of any cover up reaching the government is telling, and the lack of clarity even now in 400,000 pages where they cannot just say something like 'Some Liverpool fans were drunk, it didn't help things, but they were not the cause of the accident and deaths' just makes me wonder if its put out like this to try and just end it all, rather than actually tell the honest truth. Would Liverpool fans accept that? Probably not.

 

80's football was full of drink and violence, and i think something Brummie pointed out about the police at that time especially Yorkshire had a poor reputation, sure the Liverpool fans knew this all too well, whether that had any effect on relations even before kick-off is something to consider. I just cannot see it being all calm and peaceful, sorry.

 

I do now hope they get to take legal action against the police force, those who were head of the cover up and see some jail time dished out, but methinks those who were mainly responsible at the highest level will get away with it, probably not even mentioned in the reports, while lower level authorities will take the flak. Think the head of police at the time for Yorkshire is now dead isn't he? So will 'justice' ever be done? Probably not.

 

 

[BottledDog]

I was in the leppings lane stand in 1974 and I well remember our own fans who arrived rather close to kick off pushing through the tunnel under the stand to force those of us on the top of the terrace down to the front so they could get the best view from the terrace.  We found ourselves pushed right down to the fence and ended up leaving the leppings lane stand because of the crush.  As far as I know this was because our own fans were desperate to get onto the terrace and the tunnel was a bottleneck which at times was static and solid so the fans just pushed and pushed to get through with no thought to how it would affect those of us already on the terracing.  I have never apportioned any blame on those fans who tragically died at Hillsborough and can't understand how anyone could even contemplate that, but I do wonder whether those fans who pushed through that tunnel on that dreadful day ever wonder whether they contributed to thr tragedy

 

A fair question, and I'm sure it must be a horrible thing to think back on over the years. As you say, it is so easy for a bit of light hearted pushing those ahead in a crowded situation to escalate into a crush, I've been at the wrong end of it a fair few times now and avoid those situations as much as I can now. You can experience that complete loss of control even in small crowds, where there are guys only few yards back that have no idea of the panic they're causing as people start to lose the ability to stand and balance individually.

 

Again, I'm in no way apportioning blame to any people in particular, just commenting on crowd dynamics and how god damned scary it can be.

[Darth Crooks]

I'll have to go along with someone who said that the blame has to go with the idea of fencing people in to a large degree. Was only a matter of time before it happened to someone. The cover up stuff however is nefarious stuff indeed.

[Robster]

I wonder who made the decision to give the Liverpool fan's the Leppings Lane end?

I know, in theory, both sets of fans should be there in equal numbers but for some reason, it seems crazy not to have given Liverpool the opposite, much bigger, end (The Kop is it ?)

[Disco]

I wonder who made the decision to give the Liverpool fan's the Leppings Lane end?

I know, in theory, both sets of fans should be there in equal numbers but for some reason, it seems crazy not to have given Liverpool the opposite, much bigger, end (The Kop is it ?)

 

Police wouldn't it have been? Read it was more convenient for bussing fans in to the various areas of the stadium from the motorway.

[Guest reefatoon]

I wonder who made the decision to give the Liverpool fan's the Leppings Lane end?

I know, in theory, both sets of fans should be there in equal numbers but for some reason, it seems crazy not to have given Liverpool the opposite, much bigger, end (The Kop is it ?)

 

The Liverpool fans were in the Leppings lane end the year before in the semi and it was fine.

[Robster]

Police wouldn't it have been? Read it was more convenient for bussing fans in to the various areas of the stadium from the motorway.

Fair enough. There isn't any reason for me to think that the 'bigger' club should automatically get the bigger terrracing so my logic is daft really. Sad to think that if they had decided the other way, then it would most likely never have happened

[Heake]

Can this not have its own thread so we can get back to slagging them off (guilt free)?

[Deuce]

The Hillsborough tragedy is not something I know nearly enough about. Tonight's reading for sure.

[jdckelly]

I'm reasonably sure there was a Hillsborough thread at one stage

[Tooj]

What's the best Hillsborough documentary out there?

 

I've just found one from LFC TV, but I'd rather something out there that tries to be as neutral as possible.

 

For example I completely forgot I had this that was made by the BBC, and I'm going to give it a watch again now.

 

http://i1112.photobucket.com/albums/k492/cf2077/Up%20Up/heysel.jpg

 

So I'm looking for something similar.

[Guest Roger Kint]

I'm reasonably sure there was a Hillsborough thread at one stage

 

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,61330.0.html

[Big Geordie]

I wonder who made the decision to give the Liverpool fan's the Leppings Lane end?

I know, in theory, both sets of fans should be there in equal numbers but for some reason, it seems crazy not to have given Liverpool the opposite, much bigger, end (The Kop is it ?)

 

The Liverpool fans were in the Leppings lane end the year before in the semi and it was fine.

 

It wasn't I believe - there were similar problems, although not on the scale which happened in 89. The Police and FA didn't learn their lessons - showing sheer contempt to those they should have been protecting.

[TheGuv]

BUMP

 

Post in here please...

[Big Geordie]

Obviously given yesterday's revelations, the wheels of justice will begin to turn. Pity it's taken so long to happen.

[Wullie]

Football Focus did a good documentary on it on the twentieth anniversary. It's on YouTube, I watched it again last night.

[Hudson]

Obviously given yesterday's revelations, the wheels of justice will begin to turn. Pity it's taken so long to happen.

 

Pity very few will be brought to justice

[k2]

In focusing on the micro detail, the near technical ‘who did what’ back in April 1989, a larger truth is obscured. For at that social and historical moment, the authorities were, in effect, arrayed against football fans. That ambulances were not forthcoming, that the police were ready for a riot rather than to help, that fans were caged in at all, was not specific to the Hillsborough disaster. It was all too typical of the time. Under the gaze of the ruling elite, football was not a leisure activity; it was, above all, a law-and-order issue.

 

And why? Because those who watched football - by and large, the working classes - were considered at best as a problem to be managed, and at worst, given the class-based conflicts of the era, as part of ‘the enemy within’. A piece in The Sunday Times from 1983 captures such fear and loathing well: ‘The game drifts slowly into the possession of what we are now supposed to call the underclass; and a whole middle-class public grows up without ever dreaming of visiting a football league ground.’ Football fans, you see, were not like ‘Us’, they were deemed a hostile ‘Them’.After the Bradford City stadium fire in May 1985, which killed 56 people, the disdain for football fans was given its classic formulation not in the Sun, but in a Sunday Times editorial: ‘British football is in crisis; a slum sport played in slum stadiums increasingly watched by slum people, who deter decent folk from turning up.’

 

RIP fair enough, and for those of us at White Hart Lane in 87 it all felt very close. Policing today is not as aggressive as it used to be. Monitoring has replaced confrontation and coercion, and fans are arrested for speech crimes rather than violent crimes. But the intent to discipline is still there. Football fans are still a social constituency to be dealt with.

 

[Incognito]

Well I , for one ,hope  they can give the 96 that passed families something to smile about , by winning their next game by a hatful.