Guest Howaythetoon Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The real reason why England are s*** can be traced all the way back to kids' football where fathers and coaches scream at defenders to get rid of it, instruct the midfielders to get stuck in and the forwards to chase down everything. You watch any game in England at a grassroots level be it between a bunch of 7 year olds or a bunch of hairy arsed old gadgies and the pattern is the same, hoof ball, long ball, hard tackling, lots of work ethic etc. and very little skill, individualism or ability. Even our own glamourised so-called best league in the world typifies or rewards this type of game, culture and indeed footballer. England have no chance and nor do our players. Attitudes have to change if we are to compete. The dad, the coach, the fans, we have to change our values and attitudes. We value work rate, tough tackling, getting stuck in and we spread this mentality like the plaugue right throughout our game all the way to those that matter most, the players, from our kids kicking a ball in the park to our heroes at St. James' Park. I was in Tunisia a few years back watching a game of street football between what seemed like about 20 kids, all of different sizes, ages and what have you. No coaches, no refs, no adults, just kids playing for the sheer fun of it and what I saw was a great deal of skill and flair among them all. Such a contrast to why your average kids' game here in England which is usually dominated not by individuals but by screaming parents, robotic coaches and stupid rules and regulations that state once a kid gets to say 10, and is in a team, they have to play on huge pitches. On the terraces we also need to change of our attitude. I f***ing hate it when fans at SJP get impatient and start moaning because we are attempting to play a bit of keep ball. Get it forward man etc. Keeping the ball is the be all and end all. Do that and you will win games and trophies as the masters such as Spain and Brazil for example showcase in every match and every tournament almost. It is no coincidence either that when England won their first and last tournament and generally looked like world beaters, those players developed their skills and abilities not in academies and under coaches but out there on the streets and back alley ways. When I was into coaching I attended a UEFA seminar and the majority of academy coaches working at Premier League clubs were pretty much in tune with one another when it came to the kind of player they wanted to develop or hoped they could find and that player was an athlete. Is Pirlo an athlete? Inesta? Don't get me wrong, the game needs athletes, Ronaldo is an exceptional athlete for example, but he hasn't made it to the very top because he's quick and strong, but because he is skilful, full of ability, individualism and flair. The very ingredients that our own academies, clubs, coaches, parents, fans etc. valuein our game from kids' footy all the way to the Premier League less than pace, power, physical attributes and work . In short an Ashley Young or a Danny Wellbeck or a Scott Parker or James Milner. They are not bad players of course but Young is no Chris Waddle, Wellbeck is no Shearer, Parker is no Robson and Milner is no Beardsley. We used to produce those players like clockwork but since the advent of the Premier League and academies, coaching etc. we are getting fewere footballers and more athletes. During my coaching my team once went a season unbeaten, I did zero coaching, I just let them play and express themselves. The battles I had with parents man. One didn't want his son playing in goal but his son wanted to so I said OK, have a go, he was crap like but had lots of fun. He's a goalscorer man was the reply from the angry father. The lad could score goals to be fair but who was I to deny a kid the chance to basically express himself as an individual or even have some fun. But then I didn't give a f*** about winning games or trophies. Leave that s*** to adults and the professionals. I guarantee this debate will continue forevere because things will never change. We are basically relying on a golden generation of players, the right manager and whoever we play to be considerably s*** or average for us to win a tournament, that and no extra time and penalties. Aye right... get with the times England or continue to look like utter fools. Did you resign after your unbeaten season? Or did the unbeaten sequence come to an abrubt end the following season? I moved on, a new coach took over, similar philosophies but winning is important, doing well by all accounts. I simply had a choice of coaching or building my business. When I'm rich and retired, I'll get back into coaching or rather grassroots footballl. I would love to create a club where kids can just come to and play, no pressure, no having to play in a position that adult picks for them, they can just come in and have a game of footy with other kids who want to just have a kick about. When I was a kid I would knock on other kids' doors asking if they wanted a kick-about, gates, singles, doubles, whatever, next thing you knew we'd be playing 20 a side games on lop sided fields and it was the best ever, no coaches, no adults, just kids playing footy for fun, expressing themselves. Every saturday or sunday thousands of kids all over the country go home crying because they didn't get a game. When I was coaching I used to say to the other coach, why not let your reserves play my reserves on an empty picth. Some did but a few didn't in case of injuries etc. Injuries man. Its not the fucking Champions League. Let them play! The game's greatest coach is the game itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I'd agree with HTT in that there seems to be something about our fundamental attitude to the game, that isn't conducive to producing technically adept players in the long term. After all, the skill gap between British and Continental players has been there for decades. It predates the Premiership and modern quota systems for developing young players. The most astute thing I've heard on this subject came from Arsene Wenger. He once said that for the English player, football is war, whereas for the continental player, football is an art form. It comes out partly in the obsession, highlighted by HTT, for getting young children to play competitve 11 a side football on large pitches far too soon. They don't develop their skills that way. I think it also comes out in our association of skill with individualism rather than teamwork. It was very noticeable last night that the England team were playing as isolated individuals, or at best only in twos and threes, whereas the Italians were knocking the ball around as a team with far more confidence. Their ability to interchange passes and have faith in one another to receive the ball at pace was so superior to our players. I think a by-product of the 'warrior' mentality that Wenger mentions is our obsession with individuals producing moments on their own to unlock a defence - particularly wide players. Having said that, I think matters are improving. We were a bit unlucky with injuries, because Wilshere, Lampard and Barry would have been good additions to a squad which relied solely on Gerrard for invention in the midfield. I'm a bit worried about Hodgson's apparent commitment to 4-4-2 though. We end up getting outnumbered in midfield and relying too much on the wide players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tisd09 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The real reason why England are s*** can be traced all the way back to kids' football where fathers and coaches scream at defenders to get rid of it, instruct the midfielders to get stuck in and the forwards to chase down everything. You watch any game in England at a grassroots level be it between a bunch of 7 year olds or a bunch of hairy arsed old gadgies and the pattern is the same, hoof ball, long ball, hard tackling, lots of work ethic etc. and very little skill, individualism or ability. Even our own glamourised so-called best league in the world typifies or rewards this type of game, culture and indeed footballer. England have no chance and nor do our players. Attitudes have to change if we are to compete. The dad, the coach, the fans, we have to change our values and attitudes. We value work rate, tough tackling, getting stuck in and we spread this mentality like the plaugue right throughout our game all the way to those that matter most, the players, from our kids kicking a ball in the park to our heroes at St. James' Park. I was in Tunisia a few years back watching a game of street football between what seemed like about 20 kids, all of different sizes, ages and what have you. No coaches, no refs, no adults, just kids playing for the sheer fun of it and what I saw was a great deal of skill and flair among them all. Such a contrast to why your average kids' game here in England which is usually dominated not by individuals but by screaming parents, robotic coaches and stupid rules and regulations that state once a kid gets to say 10, and is in a team, they have to play on huge pitches. On the terraces we also need to change of our attitude. I f***ing hate it when fans at SJP get impatient and start moaning because we are attempting to play a bit of keep ball. Get it forward man etc. Keeping the ball is the be all and end all. Do that and you will win games and trophies as the masters such as Spain and Brazil for example showcase in every match and every tournament almost. It is no coincidence either that when England won their first and last tournament and generally looked like world beaters, those players developed their skills and abilities not in academies and under coaches but out there on the streets and back alley ways. When I was into coaching I attended a UEFA seminar and the majority of academy coaches working at Premier League clubs were pretty much in tune with one another when it came to the kind of player they wanted to develop or hoped they could find and that player was an athlete. Is Pirlo an athlete? Inesta? Don't get me wrong, the game needs athletes, Ronaldo is an exceptional athlete for example, but he hasn't made it to the very top because he's quick and strong, but because he is skilful, full of ability, individualism and flair. The very ingredients that our own academies, clubs, coaches, parents, fans etc. valuein our game from kids' footy all the way to the Premier League less than pace, power, physical attributes and work . In short an Ashley Young or a Danny Wellbeck or a Scott Parker or James Milner. They are not bad players of course but Young is no Chris Waddle, Wellbeck is no Shearer, Parker is no Robson and Milner is no Beardsley. We used to produce those players like clockwork but since the advent of the Premier League and academies, coaching etc. we are getting fewere footballers and more athletes. During my coaching my team once went a season unbeaten, I did zero coaching, I just let them play and express themselves. The battles I had with parents man. One didn't want his son playing in goal but his son wanted to so I said OK, have a go, he was crap like but had lots of fun. He's a goalscorer man was the reply from the angry father. The lad could score goals to be fair but who was I to deny a kid the chance to basically express himself as an individual or even have some fun. But then I didn't give a f*** about winning games or trophies. Leave that s*** to adults and the professionals. I guarantee this debate will continue forevere because things will never change. We are basically relying on a golden generation of players, the right manager and whoever we play to be considerably s*** or average for us to win a tournament, that and no extra time and penalties. Aye right... get with the times England or continue to look like utter fools. Part of me can't wait for my kid to be old enough to play football but another part of me is dreading it for peoples attitudes. I'm not sure if I can handle the aggressive parents, or coaches who want to win at any cost. Luckily the club I play for have a good kids set up, the training looks fun and engaging, not see what the parents are like when a game takes place mind. I took my little one up the park a few weeks ago, as soon as I tried to get him to do something like just pass it back and forth with me and pass in the correct way he hated it, yet give him the ball and let him run around kicking the ball and he was having a whale of a time. Then I stopped and thought am I here for Alex or here for myself, I wanted to teach him, he wanted fun. He is 4 FFS so i just let him kick it around, he laughed his little ass off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 This been posted? http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4393865/England-fan-flashes-willy-during-Euro-2012-shootout-in-bid-to-put-off-Italians-scoring-winner.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The real reason why England are s*** can be traced all the way back to kids' football where fathers and coaches scream at defenders to get rid of it, instruct the midfielders to get stuck in and the forwards to chase down everything. You watch any game in England at a grassroots level be it between a bunch of 7 year olds or a bunch of hairy arsed old gadgies and the pattern is the same, hoof ball, long ball, hard tackling, lots of work ethic etc. and very little skill, individualism or ability. Even our own glamourised so-called best league in the world typifies or rewards this type of game, culture and indeed footballer. England have no chance and nor do our players. Attitudes have to change if we are to compete. The dad, the coach, the fans, we have to change our values and attitudes. We value work rate, tough tackling, getting stuck in and we spread this mentality like the plaugue right throughout our game all the way to those that matter most, the players, from our kids kicking a ball in the park to our heroes at St. James' Park. I was in Tunisia a few years back watching a game of street football between what seemed like about 20 kids, all of different sizes, ages and what have you. No coaches, no refs, no adults, just kids playing for the sheer fun of it and what I saw was a great deal of skill and flair among them all. Such a contrast to why your average kids' game here in England which is usually dominated not by individuals but by screaming parents, robotic coaches and stupid rules and regulations that state once a kid gets to say 10, and is in a team, they have to play on huge pitches. On the terraces we also need to change of our attitude. I f***ing hate it when fans at SJP get impatient and start moaning because we are attempting to play a bit of keep ball. Get it forward man etc. Keeping the ball is the be all and end all. Do that and you will win games and trophies as the masters such as Spain and Brazil for example showcase in every match and every tournament almost. It is no coincidence either that when England won their first and last tournament and generally looked like world beaters, those players developed their skills and abilities not in academies and under coaches but out there on the streets and back alley ways. When I was into coaching I attended a UEFA seminar and the majority of academy coaches working at Premier League clubs were pretty much in tune with one another when it came to the kind of player they wanted to develop or hoped they could find and that player was an athlete. Is Pirlo an athlete? Inesta? Don't get me wrong, the game needs athletes, Ronaldo is an exceptional athlete for example, but he hasn't made it to the very top because he's quick and strong, but because he is skilful, full of ability, individualism and flair. The very ingredients that our own academies, clubs, coaches, parents, fans etc. valuein our game from kids' footy all the way to the Premier League less than pace, power, physical attributes and work . In short an Ashley Young or a Danny Wellbeck or a Scott Parker or James Milner. They are not bad players of course but Young is no Chris Waddle, Wellbeck is no Shearer, Parker is no Robson and Milner is no Beardsley. We used to produce those players like clockwork but since the advent of the Premier League and academies, coaching etc. we are getting fewere footballers and more athletes. During my coaching my team once went a season unbeaten, I did zero coaching, I just let them play and express themselves. The battles I had with parents man. One didn't want his son playing in goal but his son wanted to so I said OK, have a go, he was crap like but had lots of fun. He's a goalscorer man was the reply from the angry father. The lad could score goals to be fair but who was I to deny a kid the chance to basically express himself as an individual or even have some fun. But then I didn't give a f*** about winning games or trophies. Leave that s*** to adults and the professionals. I guarantee this debate will continue forevere because things will never change. We are basically relying on a golden generation of players, the right manager and whoever we play to be considerably s*** or average for us to win a tournament, that and no extra time and penalties. Aye right... get with the times England or continue to look like utter fools. Part of me can't wait for my kid to be old enough to play football but another part of me is dreading it for peoples attitudes. I'm not sure if I can handle the aggressive parents, or coaches who want to win at any cost. Luckily the club I play for have a good kids set up, the training looks fun and engaging, not see what the parents are like when a game takes place mind. I took my little one up the park a few weeks ago, as soon as I tried to get him to do something like just pass it back and forth with me and pass in the correct way he hated it, yet give him the ball and let him run around kicking the ball and he was having a whale of a time. Then I stopped and thought am I here for Alex or here for myself, I wanted to teach him, he wanted fun. He is 4 FFS so i just let him kick it around, he laughed his little ass off. My nephew was a great player, honestly, he could dribble for fun and beat anyone despite lacking pace. NUFC were watching him weekly. His coach would constantly scream at him for dribbling his way out of defence though. Not there, get rid, play it long etc. were constant throughout yet he had the ability to dribble his way all the way upfield and score which he did on a consistent basis. at 7 years old when he first started playing he joined a club and in 13 games or so scored 27 goals. He could do like 300 kick ups easily at that age and mastered all the tricks, the chop, the Cryuff/Zidane trick etc. I have a video of him outside of Kings Cross doing 360 + kick-ups at the age of 7 and doing all kinds of tricks. There was a crowd watching. Anyway because of his coach and the attitude of parents we took him out of his team to a new team. Big mistake though as the new team were all about excellence and everything being spot on which curtailed his individualism. Anyway he was going to school saying he was going to be a footballer and his schoolwork suffered. His dad put an end to the footy, he could play but no serious coaching etc which I was guilty of as I was coaching him every day and over coaching him. Now he's top of his class at school and a pretty good rugby/cricket player and doesn't even care about footy these days. Best advice, again, just let them play and don't take things too seriously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tisd09 Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I agree especially at such a young age. Hopefully the new initiative that the FA have voted on will help grass routes. But still I think overpricing if Premier League/English League talent is a factor in a lack of oppourtunities for home grown players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Messi, Xavi and Iniesta were all at the Barca academy being 'coached' at 11. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Messi, Xavi and Iniesta were all at the Barca academy being 'coached' at 11. Exactly - nothing wrong with coaching at any age. Has to be a balance struck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I reckon Southgate will do a canny job btw. Seems to know his onions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 The real reason why England are shit can be traced all the way back to kids' football where fathers and coaches scream at defenders to get rid of it, instruct the midfielders to get stuck in and the forwards to chase down everything. You watch any game in England at a grassroots level be it between a bunch of 7 year olds or a bunch of hairy arsed old gadgies and the pattern is the same, hoof ball, long ball, hard tackling, lots of work ethic etc. and very little skill, individualism or ability. Even our own glamourised so-called best league in the world typifies or rewards this type of game, culture and indeed footballer. England have no chance and nor do our players. Attitudes have to change if we are to compete. The dad, the coach, the fans, we have to change our values and attitudes. We value work rate, tough tackling, getting stuck in and we spread this mentality like the plaugue right throughout our game all the way to those that matter most, the players, from our kids kicking a ball in the park to our heroes at St. James' Park. I was in Tunisia a few years back watching a game of street football between what seemed like about 20 kids, all of different sizes, ages and what have you. No coaches, no refs, no adults, just kids playing for the sheer fun of it and what I saw was a great deal of skill and flair among them all. Such a contrast to why your average kids' game here in England which is usually dominated not by individuals but by screaming parents, robotic coaches and stupid rules and regulations that state once a kid gets to say 10, and is in a team, they have to play on huge pitches. On the terraces we also need to change of our attitude. I fucking hate it when fans at SJP get impatient and start moaning because we are attempting to play a bit of keep ball. Get it forward man etc. Keeping the ball is the be all and end all. Do that and you will win games and trophies as the masters such as Spain and Brazil for example showcase in every match and every tournament almost. It is no coincidence either that when England won their first and last tournament and generally looked like world beaters, those players developed their skills and abilities not in academies and under coaches but out there on the streets and back alley ways. When I was into coaching I attended a UEFA seminar and the majority of academy coaches working at Premier League clubs were pretty much in tune with one another when it came to the kind of player they wanted to develop or hoped they could find and that player was an athlete. Is Pirlo an athlete? Inesta? Don't get me wrong, the game needs athletes, Ronaldo is an exceptional athlete for example, but he hasn't made it to the very top because he's quick and strong, but because he is skilful, full of ability, individualism and flair. The very ingredients that our own academies, clubs, coaches, parents, fans etc. valuein our game from kids' footy all the way to the Premier League less than pace, power, physical attributes and work . In short an Ashley Young or a Danny Wellbeck or a Scott Parker or James Milner. They are not bad players of course but Young is no Chris Waddle, Wellbeck is no Shearer, Parker is no Robson and Milner is no Beardsley. We used to produce those players like clockwork but since the advent of the Premier League and academies, coaching etc. we are getting fewere footballers and more athletes. During my coaching my team once went a season unbeaten, I did zero coaching, I just let them play and express themselves. The battles I had with parents man. One didn't want his son playing in goal but his son wanted to so I said OK, have a go, he was crap like but had lots of fun. He's a goalscorer man was the reply from the angry father. The lad could score goals to be fair but who was I to deny a kid the chance to basically express himself as an individual or even have some fun. But then I didn't give a fuck about winning games or trophies. Leave that shit to adults and the professionals. I guarantee this debate will continue forevere because things will never change. We are basically relying on a golden generation of players, the right manager and whoever we play to be considerably shit or average for us to win a tournament, that and no extra time and penalties. Aye right... get with the times England or continue to look like utter fools. Replace 'England' with 'U.S.' and you'll basically get the same argument from most of us across the pond. We've relied too long on the English/Premiership model of producing superb athletes focused on nothing but winning. The biggest reason Klinsmann was brought over was to completely revamp the way the game is played from the grassroots level on up, focusing on technique and skill the same way he helped transform the German system. I'd say our national team plays much the same as the England squad, just with less skill and a bit more heart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 from what I've seen of US team there's more skill there :| Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 from what I've seen of US team there's more skill there :| We can smack the shit out of Scotland alright but don't ask us for a dominant win over the mighty Antigua and Barbuda. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 So pissed off at Gerrard saying he has no plans to relinquish the captain's armband, if he had any decency he would retire from international footy to save him being dragged out to the world cup in a wheelchair or whatever by then and take a position on the pitch that would be better filled by players who won't get knackered after 10 minutes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Not his responsibility to do so IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Well that's fair in a way but saying outright he wants to be captain just seems a bit lacking in awareness of his age. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 I think theres several players more worthy of your frustration than Gerrard saying he likes being captain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 there are, but doesn't make that not annoying Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Messi, Xavi and Iniesta were all at the Barca academy being 'coached' at 11. Exactly - nothing wrong with coaching at any age. Has to be a balance struck. I think they also spend a lot of time on schoolwork and helping to mould balanced and happy children too. Their graduates tend to be very modest and level-headed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cronky Posted June 25, 2012 Share Posted June 25, 2012 Let's just see how Gerrard goes over the next two years before writing him off. His fitness isn't what it was, but he was still our best player. He could yet have a role as the anchor man in midfield. Wilshere - Gerrard - Ox could be quite a tasty threesome in two years' time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenBartonCentrePartin Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 SSN have just randomly thrown in a piece about a possible England team for 2014 Hart Walker Smalling Jones Gibbs Wilshere Rodwell Ox-Chamberlain Rooney Sturridge Welbeck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 that's not dreadful imo but still not convinced by Rooney dropping too deep, he can do it but reckon people get a bit carried away simply because he can play football a bit more than most English strikers and suddenly think he's a proper playmaker... Also am I harsh to have lost patience with Sturridge by end of last season? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenBartonCentrePartin Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 not saying its bad, just the way it was presented was as though the producer had scrawled an idea down, been impressed with himself and demanded it be fitted into the bulletin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Sturridge is wasted out wide & has said himself he doesnt want to play there. Lads a striker & a very good one at that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarrenBartonCentrePartin Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Rodwell's the major doubt in that XI imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted June 26, 2012 Share Posted June 26, 2012 Under Roy's reign it'll always be two banks of four ( ) and so sturridge may get a chance up front. We seem to lack decent wide wingers which is odd because considering english fondness for wide players peppering crosses into the box you'd think we'd have a few. Instead we have some pretty decent ones who will cut inside, but won't work with Roy's wide game. Bleh. If I were in charge! Hart Lescott Cahill Smalling Richards Wilshere Rodwell Baines Ox Rooney Carroll (ok probably not) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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