Ronaldo

[Disco]

I hadn't even realised there was an international tournament this summer. Yay. \o/

 

Its the Waffa u21s n all this summer. Was surprisingly decent last time it was on with that mammoth shootout v Holland.

[Dave]

\o/ \o/

[Village Idiot]

Leo Messi

Pipita Higuaín

Carlos Tévez

Diego Milito

Sergio Agüero

 

f***ing mental.

 

No San Martín?

 

Palermo?

[Disco]

Leo Messi

Pipita Higuaín

Carlos Tévez

Diego Milito

Sergio Agüero

 

f***ing mental.

 

No San Martín?

 

Palermo?

 

[Shayno]

And Lavezzi

[Flip]

[Ishmael]

Ridiculous accusations being thrown about in here.

 

Ronaldo (the poster) completely obsessed with besmirching Owen's career.  Genuinely tarnished his reputation a little, for me.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

To see Shearer performed well when we were dross is a slight exaggeration. He generally looked average when we were average.

 

Howay man, he practically carried us. Even when we finished a lofty 5th in Sir Bobby's final full season at the club we were massively average yet an ageing Shearer was putting in top drawer performances. He rarely put in an average performance never mind a poor one. I remember for a while under Gullit he was very poor but I put that down to injury and personal issues with the manager. As soon as Sir Bobby was appointed Shearer got back to his old self and from that very day to the final days of Sir Bobby he was immense for this club as a forward in a pretty dire side in the main save for the side that finished 4th. Even when we finished 3rd we were pretty average at times as a side in terms of performances. I remember in particularly a 3-1 home win over Charlton where he was absolutely immense and a 3-2 away win at Fulham where he scored a brace. I remember his goals at Old Trafford in the FA Cup Semi vs Spurs and his performance away to Inter in the 2-2 draw where Cannavaro simply couldn't cope with him.

 

By the way I did a thing on Shearer when he retired for this very site, basically a list of quotes from players, managers etc. about him and a young Ronaldo was asked who his favourite player was back when he had not long joined Inter and he named Shearer as his fave player at that time, someone he had a lot to learn from he said, these quotes lifted from an article in World Soccer magazine.

 

I also remember Paulo Maldini's quote revealing he was glad Shearer wasn't playing in Serie A as that meant he would have had to face him.

 

Further to that though, to illustrate just how highly thought of Shearer was, Ronaldo was actually Barcelona's back up to Shearer who they tried and obviously failed to get, before they got the Brazilian.

 

It would seem those in the actual game rated our former number 9 more than some of those who watched him weekly... mind, fans didn't have to face him every week so maybe that's not so surprising perhaps. Back to that Charlton game I mentioned. A young Jonathan Fortune was playing for the Addicks that day, at the time touted as a future England centre-back. Tall, quick, athletic, confident... Shearer absolutely bullied him physically, mentally and positionally. That was an ageing Shearer who at the time many were only too willing to write "finished" whenever he went a game without scoring. He was a man possessed that evening, dominating their entire back-four and leading the line for Newcastle in a magnificent fashion of which we'll do well to see again in our time following this club.

 

Shearer was a world-class centre-forward, one of the best of his generation, arguably the best. Forget his goals... his attributes and performances say just as much.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

By the way, speaking of Kluivert, had he been more prolific and more consistent, he'd be talked about as the best because not only was he a world-class centre-forward, he was also a world-class playmaker, a Shearer and Beardsley type forward rolled into one, minus the prolificness in front of goal of a Shearer. Having said that though his goals to game record is very impressive and he is one striker who I thought as a footballer, had it all. He did next to nowt here but watching such a magnificent footballer in wor shirt was still special.

[Tooj]

In Sir Bobby's final season - Shearer put in several 'average' performances away from home.

[Flip]

In Shearers defence he was 'average' only during his last 2 seasons tbh.  Great professional, but Ronaldo was still the better player for me.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT.

 

I see where you coming from, but I still believe that a striker is judged on goal and how much he helps a team. Ronaldo was exceptional in creating spaces, in drawing two-three defenders, taking them on and above all scoring. Shearer was real hard worker, but Ronaldo made it much easier to his team he took pressure of his team. People were saying Ronaldo was past it but he still scored once every two games for Milan as fat as he was so he also adapted his game in a marvellous matter.

 

Of course a striker is judged on goals scored and how much he helps his team and there is no doubt that Ronaldo excelled in both areas but so did Shearer and for me, more. Ronaldo did score goals at Milan despite being "fat" and "past it" but I didn't see an adaptation to his game, he struggled in general play a lot just as he did at Madrid and for Brazil. Like he said on his retirement, his brain could still do it but his body couldn't. He could still finish at Milan, Madrid and for Brazil but his body couldn't adapt. Shearer on the other hand adapted his game in such a different way to how he used to play he become an entirely different striker. Many would say of Shearer "old fashioned English centre-forward" yet at Blackburn and when we signed him he wasn't that striker in any shape of form other than he worked his socks off and battled for every ball. He was much more than that as a striker in his pomp.

 

For me Romario is the closest you'll find a striker in the 90's to Ronaldo. Romario had more raw talent but he just couldn't bother enough. Ronaldo fought back from injuries time after time, he felt he never won enough and wanted more all the time. People say that he wasn't loyal but remember he never wanted to leave Barca and before going to Real he offered his services back to Barcelona but the club couldn't afford it. He was loved by everyone.

 

For me Romario is the best finisher I've seen, so so natural and also the most gifted of forwards in terms of finesse. Probably, along with Zidane and Beardsley, the player I've enjoyed watching the most as a fan of the game in terms of sheer footballing ability or persona on the pitch.

 

Don't get me wrong I love Shearer and at his prime he was unstoppable my only match I've watched live in Newcastle, Shearer contributed so much and won every single header. But in his prime I don't think he was as feared by the opposition as Ronaldo was.

 

I think the fear was just as strong but in different ways. With Ronaldo I imagine defenders feared his pace and trickery, with Shearer it was his clinical ability and his strength and ability in the air. Not many bettered Shearer physically or in the air and if there was even a quarter of a chance to strike the ball goalwards, Shearer was there, often knocking them in. The goal he scored against Sheff Utd in the FA Cup Semi, he had no right to get to it, but despite being at a disadvantage, he was first to the ball. That's what scared defenders, i.e. you couldn't give him an inch.

 

I think Shearer was better centrally than Ronaldo and therefore was more of a threat to central defenders in the areas they tend to be best at, i.e. in the air, getting tight and physically.

 

I remember John Terry when he first burst onto the seen when asked what it was like playing against Shearer and he said he'd make one hell of a centre-half because he won every ball, was so strong physically and wouldn't ease up, in other words Shearer ruled in the most important area of the pitch.

 

Talking about Rivaldo, he might be one of the most underrated players of all time. Won world best player once but people forget he was Brazils best player in the 2002 world cup. I was at the world cup and saw two games and he tracked back so much and did so much for the team it's ridiculous. And still at 38 he showed his quality two weeks ago in his debut for Sao Paulo. Quality. Just sad that todays Brazilian players are average and non-spectacular players (Elias, Lucas, Ramires (good players but nothing spectacular)). I'm keeping my hopes up that Pato, Coutinho, Neymar and Ganso will develop into their full potential.

 

I agree, I used to love watching Rivaldo, Sir Bobby's recommendation to replace Ronaldo for the Barca board, although again, back up to Shearer who was Sir Bobby's first choice to replace Ronaldo. He could be lazy at times mind and I remember many a time where his general play would be average but then he'd burst into life and do the most amazing things.

 

Regarding the current talent of Brazil, I think they will always produce amazing talent but I believe they will struggle to replace Ronaldo, Ronaldhino and Rivaldo as the world's greatest of talents. I know Kaka was highly regarded once but truthfully I've never rated him as high as that, just a South American Frank Lampard, never a true great or world best for me.

[Frazzle]

Good post HTT.

 

I agree with the Kaka bit as well, very overrated player.

[Ronaldo]

Ridiculous accusations being thrown about in here.

 

Ronaldo (the poster) completely obsessed with besmirching Owen's career.  Genuinely tarnished his reputation a little, for me.

 

I'll take anything I can inflict on that cowardly little cunt, thanks.

[Tooj]

Good post HTT.

 

I agree with the Kaka bit as well, very overrated player.

 

Before his injury problems Kaka was brilliant.

[Flip]

HTT

 

Ronaldo adapted a lot, he changed his game which was based on movement and speed to a more inside the box type of player. The thing with the body has all to do with injuries and he was most referring to the fact that his body wouldn't respond to certain movements without feeling pain and so on. Nothing to do with adapting, he couldn't adapt anymore. I'm not questioning Shearers adaptation, like you said he adapted more and in a more extreme matter, but Ronaldo still had to adapt and adapted from a successful type of player to another successful player. You won't find many players 'big' as he was still scoring goals and taking on defenders.

 

On the other hand, I don't agree at all with the fact that you say that Shearer was better centrally. I mean both were central forwards, both were strikers, two different types of strikers but both played as central-forwards. Shearer was no doubt a very physical player and unstoppable on his day, but so was Ronaldo and I would even say to a greater extent. Ronaldos prime was unstoppable he could take on 3-4 defenders something Shearer wouldn't do with the ball at his feet. Ronaldo was also a great facilitator in the sense he made smart runs and so on. But then again if you put Ronaldo in a long-ball tactic he wouldn't be as effective and the same for Shearer in a team where there was no balls to his head.

 

Kaka, you suggest he's never been a world best for you, which I find very weird since at his prime during two seasons in Milan before injuries he was unstoppable. That game at Old Trafford he was just immense, he was without a doubt the best player in the world at the time. He helped Milan to two Champions League finals. He is nowhere near the type of player Frank Lampard is, thats a utterly poor judgement.

 

Kaka was a strong, fast player who was a playmaker in a sense very different to Lampard. Kaka would run with the ball, while Lampard is more of a player coming into positions from behind. Kaka was, just like Lampard, an exceptional player in his prime. He's only 28 but he's past it though for me, he's been unlucky with injuries. But you just have to look at the World Cup where he was very poor but still created a lot with a single touch and vision.

 

Kaka would piss over most players on his day, overrated? Remember him and Gerrard being completely unstoppable that Champions League season.

[Frazzle]

Good post HTT.

 

I agree with the Kaka bit as well, very overrated player.

 

Before his injury problems Kaka was brilliant.

 

Was overrated then still and since the injuries has been woeful.  £60m has to be one of the biggest rip offs ever.

[Flip]

Good post HTT.

 

I agree with the Kaka bit as well, very overrated player.

 

Before his injury problems Kaka was brilliant.

 

Was overrated then still and since the injuries has been woeful.  £60m has to be one of the biggest rip offs ever.

 

I don't think the Milan fans who protested when City put a bid will agree. Kaka during two years was the world best player, consistent performer who would scores, goals create and help with the general play.

 

[Frazzle]

Which two years?  For me the best player in the world went from Ronaldinho to Messi.  Never been Kaka IMO.

 

I agree he was a very good player but you have to remember that you can be very good and still be overrated..  Ronaldinho was a top, top player but to say he was the best ever would still be overrating him.

[johnnypd]

Kaka was definitely over-rated by some, quite far from being a world great imo. More a player who, in the right condition, playing in the right system, with the right players compensating for his weaknesses, and against certain sides, looked outstanding. take those elements away and he looked pretty ordinary. Like a better version of Gerrard really. Guess what i'm saying is he wasn't, at his peak, particularly adaptable, primarily because his game was based on using his devastating pace and power more than anything, needing the likes of Gattuso, Pirlo and Seedorf to do the basic work of midfield for him. Kaka's reputation primarily lives on the back of a number of great one-off performances in big games (again bit like gerrard) - for instance in some seasons iirc he scored more in the champion's league than he did in the domestic league!

 

as examples, in the istanbul champions league final he looked amazing in the first half, cutting through liverpool's porous midfield as they pushed up and left loads of space in behind. second half all benitez does is put on hamann to specifically mark kaka and his influence on the game disappears. similarly look at him against man utd a few years ago, when they were missing ferdinand and had to play Heinze instead - Milan specifically targeted Heinze's lack of pace by pushing Kaka up and getting him to run at him. Result - Kaka scores two early on. Yet as soon as his minder Gattuso went off a couple of minutes after half time, and Kaka has to drop back and, you know, try to be an actual midfielder, he looks crap and man utd go on to win the leg.

 

More recently, losing the edge from his physical attributes, he's had to develop a more static, playmaking role, which he's not done too badly in (but hardly excelled in either). If he'd had that ability earlier in his career then yes, he'd have been a world great, but instead he was just used in a specific and limited role, a role that was not nearly effective or consistent enough if one or two elements beyond his control weren't right.

[Flip]

I find that post very confusing, but you stick to your opinion while I'll stick to my opinion since I pretty much watched more than half of his matches for Milan as well as agreeing with the Milan supporters who watched him every single week. To say he had one-off performances is ridiculous like. You talk about the first leg in that CL tie but forget to mention the 2nd leg where Kaka once again was the best player on the field behind possibly Seedorf who had an equally good game.

 

Also let me say, that ever since he first stepped on the field for Sao Paulo he's main attribute was a vision combined with speed and power. He had amazing technical abilities and could already pick out a pass from nowhere. And you say take away two things from him and he won't consistent enough, again I'll give Romario as an example, take away only finishing from him and he would never be considered as good. So that argument is invalid. And again move Romario from striker to winger like you took Kaka from behind the striker to midfielder and you'll not get the same player.

 

Kaka was built on pure athleticism combined with flair and vision for the game. He was also a rather good finisher scoring around 20 goals every season for Milan. Then again Kaka losing it lately has a lot do with his pelvic injury, and I agree that his adapting to the game hasn't been as efficient. But there are not many players who adapt from speed to static succeeding in a day.

 

I'll just be a bit clearer, I've never debated of Kaka being considered a true great in the likes of Pele, Maradona, Garrincha, Cruyff, Beckenbauer and so on. But to take away his honour as the 2007 World Best player and call him overrated is ludicrous. He deserved it more than anyone and could have won it twice. There's a reason behind why he won it.

 

 

[Village Idiot]

In general, I get the impression football is currently moving away from flair players and going towards sheer effectiveness, which probably make sense but makes me just a little bit sad. The two generally acknowledged best players in the world (Cronaldo and Messi) have crazy statistics but - if you allow me to say this - aren't as beautiful to watch as the likes of  Van Basten, Romario, Rivaldo or Ronaldinho were in the recent past.

[colinmk]

In general, I get the impression football is currently moving away from flair players and going towards sheer effectiveness, which probably make sense but makes me just a little bit sad. The two generally acknowledged best players in the world (Cronaldo and Messi) have crazy statistics but - if you allow me to say this - aren't as beautiful to watch as the likes of  Van Basten, Romario, Rivaldo or Ronaldinho were in the recent past.

 

For me watching Messi play is breathtaking. Not old enough to remember Van Basten, the other three mentioned there are also beautiful to watch but Messi certainly too for me. I get bored watching Cronaldo, his play does nothing for me.

[Flip]

I agree with you to a certain degree as I love watching Messi, I think he is a fun player to watch however CRonaldo is like you say less fun to watch than those players you mentioned. CRonaldo is such an effective player but his dribbles are pointless 95% of the time.

 

It's hard to find player who are fun to watch, but I just have to say I love watching Eto'o, Messi and then players that are less exceptional in that matter but who are my type of players, Xavi and Ganso. Players who can pick out passes from nowhere.

 

I just love how Xavi dictates the tempo of the game, it just proves that you don't have to be the most physical player to be able to dominate a midfield. He just does it so elegantly it's hard not to love him. Also a very professional player.

[Village Idiot]

I'm not saying that Messi et al have no flair, mind, just that they are more direct and chose simpler options than other greats did. In part one of the reasons Messi is a better player than, say, Rivaldo, is because of this.