Colos Short and Curlies Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 I can see Wacko's point and I agree that vernacular, especially foreign vernacular, needs to be taken into context regarding such issues but for me, I reckon Suarez was abusing Evra based on his race or skin color which is racist whatever the context. Mind, you do get the impression that Suarez is a right wind up merchant on the pitch and will say say this kind of stuff even if he's not that type of person away from the pitch. Ian Wright was similar, he would say to rival players what he would do to their mothers, sisters, wives and all kinds, yet away from the pitch he was totally different. I'm absolutely certain that Suarez is a massive wind-up merchant and utter cunt on the pitch, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that his comments were meant in the worst possible way. It's just that it's unclear enough that handing down a stiff punishment on that basis would be deeply unjust. I'm pretty sure that legally, it is how the comment was taken that is the issue. Thereore if Evra didn't take the comment to be one of endearment (unlikely on a football field lets be honest) then Suarez should face some punishment. Is it as bad as Terry's appears to be? No. But is it ungentlemany comduct at best? Yes But that's terribly shaky ground to be basing a ruling upon. The absolute essence of the matter is that what Evra (claims he) heard is not what Suarez (claims he) said, even though both agree on which word was used. And how can an English body be qualified to fairly and reasonably judge a Frenchman's interpretation of a South American Spanish word? Thats the way UK law is though in cases of discrimination etc I understand that it may slightly favour (for want of a better word) the victim, but here we have a victim who is kind of "clueless". Evra speaks French and Italian, so he'll sure understand a shitload of Spanish, including "negrito", but I doubt he'd be aware that it means "mate" or "darling" in some South American countries. That is to say, would he have perceived the word as racist if he were Uruguayan (or had lived in Uruguay) himself? Would Suarez have known this and said "negrito" knowing Evra would hear "little black man" (or worse)? The only sort of parallel I can think of, drunk as I am, is if I'd called a black person "niggardly", and he were unaware of the word or its etymology (i.e. it has nothing to do with the N-word) and had taken offense. It's more than ill-advised, but would, I think, be very unreasonable to punish. When is this fucker being punished? Seems to be taking an age! The sooner the better. This thread is doing my head in, and I CAN'T HELP MYSELF You've already stated that you know Suarez is a cunt and mouthy wind up merchant, therefore is that much of a leap to get to a place where he used an ambiguous word (particulalry across languages and races) as a derogatory term? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormy Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 He did it didn't he? if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, lets just call it a greasy-dicked racist cunt duck Greasy-dicked. :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 You've already stated that you know Suarez is a cunt and mouthy wind up merchant, therefore is that much of a leap to get to a place where he used an ambiguous word (particulalry across languages and races) as a derogatory term? It's no leap at all. But being absolutely believable is not the same as being almost certainly true, and that's an important distinction for a disciplinary body handing out punishments. The problem with the ambiguity of the word is that it has apparently only existed since English people started thinking about it. It does not seem to be ambiguous to Uruguayans because none of them are saying, "Yup, it's also derogatory." Until they are, then by finding Suarez guilty of greasy-dicked racism, the FA would be retroactively defining a foreign word. Which I personally find ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ObiChrisKenobi Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 If Evra finds it offensive I'd think that has some weight (though how biased his opinion might be is another question). Just because someone goes around saying something that they and their friends doesn't find offensive, doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone. Its that ignorance I'm not too keen when it comes to trying to defend him. Should just accept any punishment, apologise and move on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 If Evra finds it offensive I'd think that has some weight (though how biased his opinion might be is another question). Just because someone goes around saying something that they and their friends doesn't find offensive, doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone. Its that ignorance I'm not too keen when it comes to trying to defend him. Should just accept any punishment, apologise and move on. Exactly. I call my mate's paedophiles all of the time, doesn't mean I'd say it to somebody random. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ObiChrisKenobi Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 He was fined after a game against Feyenoord Rotterdam in November 2007 for a half-time altercation in the changing rooms with team mate Luis Suárez, which caused manager Adrie Koster to substitute them both before the second half.[9] It was reported on 14 July 2008 that Luque had no future at Ajax. Technical director Danny Blind told Sportweek: "Ajax has told Luque that he has to leave the club. I told Albert myself that we don't want to go on with him and if I've told it to him I really don't know who else I should inform." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 If Evra finds it offensive I'd think that has some weight (though how biased his opinion might be is another question). Just because someone goes around saying something that they and their friends doesn't find offensive, doesn't mean its acceptable for everyone. Its that ignorance I'm not too keen when it comes to trying to defend him. Should just accept any punishment, apologise and move on. Of course it has some weight, but not much: he doesn't actually speak Spanish. It's not about what's okay to say to friends and strangers, it's about the validity of judging things you don't actually understand. If you want to know if some Spanish is racist, you don't ask a Frenchman and a bunch of Brits. It's unfortunate that Evra was offended, and the FA could not entirely unreasonably forbid variations of the Spanish "negro" as racist going forward, but unless some experts on Spanish are saying it is racist, it isn't, regardless of how many non-Spanish speakers think it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 What about the bloody glove? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raconteur Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 The only sort of parallel I can think of, drunk as I am, is if I'd called a black person "niggardly", and he were unaware of the word or its etymology (i.e. it has nothing to do with the N-word) and had taken offense. It's more than ill-advised, but would, I think, be very unreasonable to punish. The answer to your whole argument is found in the last line of the page you linked - to use "niggardly" is perfectly reasonable when used correctly, but you'd be fucking stupid to use that word rather than miserly or stingy. Indeed, if you're smart enough to have the word in your vocabulary then you're smart enough to know not to use it. By the same token, all your sea-lawyer shenanigans are just that because, even though there is truth to then connotations and usage of "negrito", there are dozens of other Uruguayan-Spanish words that could be used rather than one that could (would) be taken the wrong way by a black man. (Having said all that, I think the powers-that-be will come down in your favour simply because to punish Suarez leaves them open to accusations of being unfair to the poor foreigner in a strange land garbage you've been feeding us! ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 The only sort of parallel I can think of, drunk as I am, is if I'd called a black person "niggardly", and he were unaware of the word or its etymology (i.e. it has nothing to do with the N-word) and had taken offense. It's more than ill-advised, but would, I think, be very unreasonable to punish. The answer to your whole argument is found in the last line of the page you linked - to use "niggardly" is perfectly reasonable when used correctly, but you'd be fucking stupid to use that word rather than miserly or stingy. Indeed, if you're smart enough to have the word in your vocabulary then you're smart enough to know not to use it. By the same token, all your sea-lawyer shenanigans are just that because, even though there is truth to then connotations and usage of "negrito", there are dozens of other Uruguayan-Spanish words that could be used rather than one that could (would) be taken the wrong way by a black man. I agree. That's exactly how I see it. My contention is that the severest reasonable punishment for that is a slap on the wrist and a don't-do-it-again. (Having said all that, I think the powers-that-be will come down in your favour simply because to punish Suarez leaves them open to accusations of being unfair to the poor foreigner in a strange land garbage you've been feeding us! ) Well, I am a foreigner in a strange land, and this kind of crap happens all the time. Not long since, my best mate had a *massive* barney with her husband, Marcel, after she'd been on the phone to her mum in Russia. They were talking about a visit to Russia, and it turns out "Marcel's coming" in Russian sounds and awful lot like "Marcel's an idiot" to a paranoid German. I repeatedly offended my ex's granny because a word I thought meant "great" means "wants to fuck" to anyone over 60; during a game of cards, a former colleague asked someone if they were good at wanking instead of shuffling; and I know a Dutchman who, when asked what he'd like for dinner, asked for "something that's been fucked". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lucas out for 6 months, massive blow for Liverpool. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 5-4 to Dalglish Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leffe186 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lucas out for 6 months, massive blow for Liverpool. Where did you hear that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lucas out for 6 months, massive blow for Liverpool. Where did you hear that? sms_adrian Adrian Clarke Back from #LFC team hotel in London and Lucas says he thinks he will be out for 6 months. Fearing the worst but has a knee scan tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lucas out for 6 months, massive blow for Liverpool. Where did you hear that? Twitter. But it won't be clear how bad the injury is till he has a scan tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 ouch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leffe186 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lucas out for 6 months, massive blow for Liverpool. Where did you hear that? Twitter. But it won't be clear how bad the injury is till he has a scan tomorrow. Cheers. Who do you think he'll have in CM if Lucas is out? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've been a massive critic of Lucas but even I have to admit he's improved a fair bit over the last 6 months. Still don't think he's been as great as some make out, mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 They will play the massive foetus that is Jay Spearing in CM, assuming his mum lets him out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've been a massive critic of Lucas but even I have to admit he's improved a fair bit over the last 6 months. Still don't think he's been as great as some make out, mind. The Times podcast was talking about him as the best holding midfielder in the league. Obviously forgot about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've been a massive critic of Lucas but even I have to admit he's improved a fair bit over the last 6 months. Still don't think he's been as great as some make out, mind. He's been very good for 18 months, not 6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnypd Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Lucas has been fantastic recently, will be a huge miss for liverpool. none of their other midfielders can offer what he does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikon Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Unfortunate for him, but can only be good for us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I've been a massive critic of Lucas but even I have to admit he's improved a fair bit over the last 6 months. Still don't think he's been as great as some make out, mind. Very good player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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