The Liverpool Thread

[Parky]

I am sure i read on there something along the lines of what is wrong with the word negro anyway by some poster with a chinese sounding name ? Any one else see this ? Am i making this up, it seems to have gone now. The only thing i will say is that if there is evidence it should be released.

 

I think as far as evidence goes, it's very much Evra's word against Suarez's.

 

That said, Suarez doesn't deny that he used Spanish N-words to Evra; he denies that they are racist or offensive (which is realistically the case).

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/16/luis-suarez-liverpool-fa-racism

in Uruguay it is common practice for people to use derivatives of "negro" in a non-offensive way. "Negrito", for example, is a word that is often used without being deemed as racist.

 

I've no idea how well Evra understands Spanish. He will certainly have got the gist of anything Suarez said, but it's unlikely that he's familiar with the nuances of South American Spanish.

 

I think the most probable truth of it is that Suarez used a word or words that Uruguayans don't consider to have racial connotations, which Evra, for lack of familiarity with idiomatic Uruguayan, understood as racist.

 

If that is the case (and you are not generally anti-"banter"), I think the worst you can accuse Suarez of is a poor choice of words (or perfect choice of words, depending on your attitude to him).

 

You can't go around punishing people for using words that sound like bad words. Especially foreign words that sound like bad words in a different language. Huuuuuge can of worms.

 

what on earth are you talking about? Racism is about making an issue of someone's skin colour/ethnic origin/other things. Suarez had no need to mention it at all on a football pitch.

 

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Racism is treating someone's skin colour (or other genetic race marker) as a *negative* thing.

 

Mentioning someone's skin colour is not automatically racist. If that were the case, then Suarez should be up on charges of sexism and sizeism for mentioning Evra's height and gender, too.

 

Myself and a group of pals may use racist terms within our group (mix of Chinese, Indians and Pakistanis), however, we know it is in jest.

 

Similarly, 'negrito' might be used affectionately amongst a group of friends, but when you're on opposing teams in a heated match and you've been narking at each other throughout the match, I'm afraid there's only one intent in Suarez's mind.

 

Absolutely. Lots of words can be offensive depending upon the context in which they are used. I've no doubt that on a football pitch, in the heat of battle, 'negrito' will not have been used affectionately. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Do you punish Suarez on the basis that Evra found it personally offensive, or do you punish him on the basis that he crossed a line which 9 from 10 people would find universally unacceptable?

 

Of course it wasn't used affectionately, but that doesn't mean it was intended as a racist comment. From Wikipedia:

 

However, in Spanish-speaking countries such as Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay where there are few people of African origin and appearance, negro (negra for females) is commonly used to refer to partners, close friends[13] or people in general independent of skin color. In Venezuela the word negro is similarly used, despite its large African descent population.

 

It is similar to the use of the word "nigga" in urban communities in the United States. For example, one might say to a friend, "Negro ¿Como andas? (literally "Hey, black one, how are you doing?"). In this case, the diminutive negrito is used, as a term of endearment meaning "pal", "buddy" or "friend". Negrito has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English

 

So, it means "mate" or "darling". Suarez called Evra "nigga", Evra heard "nigger".

 

Myself and a group of pals may use racist terms within our group (mix of Chinese, Indians and Pakistanis), however, we know it is in jest.

 

Similarly, 'negrito' might be used affectionately amongst a group of friends, but when you're on opposing teams in a heated match and you've been narking at each other throughout the match, I'm afraid there's only one intent in Suarez's mind.

 

Absolutely. Lots of words can be offensive depending upon the context in which they are used. I've no doubt that on a football pitch, in the heat of battle, 'negrito' will not have been used affectionately. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Do you punish Suarez on the basis that Evra found it personally offensive, or do you punish him on the basis that he crossed a line which 9 from 10 people would find universally unacceptable?

 

And this is the heart of it. You can't accuse a person of racism for offence taken by someone else to a comment they don't fully understand.

 

If a black person takes offense at being described as "niggardly", that's largely their problem for not understanding the word. The worst you can accuse the person using the word of is a (deliberately) bad choice of words. Not racism.

 

Suarez has been in Europe long enough to know that using the word in any way is going to stir up emotions. It's not like he moved from Uruguay the day before the game, if he indeed did say that, he knew full well that Evra was going to take offence.

 

Europe is not one uniform place. Racism is endemic in places like Italy and Spain (hell, they even had the national basketball team pulling slanty eyes for an official photo before the Beijing olympics). It's a big problem in East Germany, too. The UK, on the other hand, is over-sensitive to racism and sees it everywhere, often to the detriment of other forms of discrimination/prejudice.

 

Suarez is a cunt. Had this coming to him. Cunt

 

This I can understand.

 

Quite a scheming defence you're putting up and I'm dissapointed in the way you are doing it.

 

He said negrito as in 'my little black bitch'...No point in micing words it was a pure taunt on many levels inc racist.

 

I'd like to see a lengthy ban and a fine.

[Parky]

As if I couldn't already hate Poyet enough.

 

+1

 

Wisey's best mate an all.

[Parky]

Wacko- I'm not gonna start a quote tree,but did you miss the bit where I said 'making an issue' of someone's skin colour? Is Evra a black man? Yes. Is there any context in which this should be brought up on a football pitch? No.

 

It's you that's absolutely wrong.

 

There is no reason for Suarez to be mentioning it,unless you're gonna tell me they were having a debate on race? I understand what you're getting at and I do happen to think that 'being offended' is a state that people all to quickly fall into these days,but there's no excuse for bringing it up in this case,my friend of skin colour unknown.

 

And there's no actual reason he should be raising the matter of Evra's size or gender, either, is there?

 

But all you can see is that, horror of horrors, he mentioned the man's skin colour. Except it's not even clear that he did. He used a word that means "mate" or "darling" to a Uruguayan, but literally means "little black one".

 

Demeaning and patronising, or perhaps insulting and infuriating is almost certainly what Suarez was aiming for. It generally is the goal of sledging and seems well in character (I'm in no way trying to deny that he's a cunt: I'd despise him if he played for someone else). But that's not the same as racist.

 

Perhaps it was a calculated application of a word intended to cause offense in the knowledge that he had a pretty solid defence for using it should he get caught. But we have no way of knowing what his intention was, so we can't know whether he said "mate" or "little black man".

 

Suarez *must* be given the benefit of the doubt. He claims he said "mate"; Evra claims he heard "little black man". And they're both correct.

 

Wacko- I'm not gonna start a quote tree,but did you miss the bit where I said 'making an issue' of someone's skin colour? Is Evra a black man? Yes. Is there any context in which this should be brought up on a football pitch? No.

 

It's you that's absolutely wrong.

 

There is no reason for Suarez to be mentioning it,unless you're gonna tell me they were having a debate on race? I understand what you're getting at and I do happen to think that 'being offended' is a state that people all to quickly fall into these days,but there's no excuse for bringing it up in this case,my friend of skin colour unknown.

 

Think this is the most impotant point TBH.

 

Even if Suarez didn't "mean to be racist", why is he even thinking to notice and comment on Evra's colour as the first thing to have a go at him about? And when he instinctively thought of it, why didn't he use his reason to stop himself actually saying it?

 

At the least that terms strikes me as incredibly patronising and demeaning when used by an opponent especially.

 

Except it's not even a point. It is not at all clear (and never will be) that he did mention Evra's colour. Everyone is claiming it must be racist word he used derives from "negro", meaning "black" (possibly with a good measure of Suarez-is-a-cunt thrown in). But that means nothing.

 

Is "black market" racist? Or "blackmail"? What about "brownout"? Film noir? Is calling someone cowardly "yellow" a racial slur? Do they have anything at all to do with skin colour?

 

No? But any Spanish word related to "negro" must be racist?

 

Has nobody asked themselves why a word that means "darling" would also be a racial slur?

 

Why play the size and gender straw man?

 

....and later the genric term straw man...You missed 'blackball'...

[Mr. Snrub]

Gus Poyet piped up on the situation and his comments don't speak well for him

 

"I believe Luis Suárez, it's simple. I played football for seven years in Spain and was called everything because I was from South America, and I never went out crying like a baby, like Patrice Evra, saying that someone had said something to me."

 

"I'm surprised, in a really sad way, that he has been charged. It's really sad. I think it's worse to charge someone because you trust one person when you have no proof."

 

"I'm really sad about this charge as it's going to become too easy. I can make a complaint about any opposition manager and if I take it as far as I can he's going to get charged. Why are we going to take one person's word over another? It's too risky."

 

:lol:

[Disco]

Evra will probably have decent grip of Spanish being French, fairly similar.

[Sifu]

As if I couldn't already hate Poyet enough.

 

Aye.....

[Disco]

Actually annoys me how he has become a decent coach/manager. Cunt.

[mrmojorisin75]

can't really be arsed with this whole racism thing but life has taught me there are always massive misunderstandings between people talking in a language that is not their own, especially here where there are native french and spanish speakers with engish in the mix on a fucking football pitch in a heated match

 

pc brigade are having a fucking field day like (on here too not just in the real world)

 

2 options for me; he's meant it in a racist way and liverpool are lawyering the thing to death over tiny nuances of language or evra has heard something and misinterpreted it and now won't back down...don't really care tbh hope they both somehow get long bans

 

any history of racism accusations from suarez anywhere else?  if not probably needs the benefit of the doubt imo, spanish is not english some people need to realise that

[Skeletor]

As if I couldn't already hate Poyet enough.

 

Disgusting human being.

[Parky]

can't really be arsed with this whole racism thing but life has taught me there are always massive misunderstandings between people talking in a language that is not their own, especially here where there are native french and spanish speakers with engish in the mix on a fucking football pitch in a heated match

 

pc brigade are having a fucking field day like (on here too not just in the real world)

 

2 options for me; he's meant it in a racist way and liverpool are lawyering the thing to death over tiny nuances of language or evra has heard something and misinterpreted it and now won't back down...don't really care tbh hope they both somehow get long bans

 

any history of racism accusations from suarez anywhere else?  if not probably needs the benefit of the doubt imo, spanish is not english some people need to realise that

 

Negrito.

[Cronky]

Did it never occur to Suarez that Evra might interpret the term 'negrito' as an insult? Surely anyone with half a brain would realise the dangers, whatever that term might supposedly mean in Uruguay.

 

It's very hard to protest complete innocence on this one.

[mrmojorisin75]

my guess is he's as thick as pigshit and acts accordingly, my guess is also he meant it in racist way too but no-one can prove anything can they?

[Ishmael]

Joe Cole just said of FF that he would have no problem playing for Liverpool again because he's played lots of football at a much higher level

[LesPaul]

Joe Cole just said of FF that he would have no problem playing for Liverpool again because he's played lots of football at a much higher level

Legend.

[Guest PhilB]

Joe Cole just said of FF that he would have no problem playing for Liverpool again because he's played lots of football at a much higher level

 

I don't know which is sadder, you considering it so important you need to write it on a football forum, or the fact that you've completely misunderstood him. 

 

He was talking about himself and his own football,  he knows he played crap for us, and is capable of playing a higher level of football.

[Tooj]

Quite a good interview with Cole, as was the one with him in The Guardian the other week.

 

Shame he lost his way after that injury, as he was one of the few England players that more often than not always done himself justice at International Level.

 

Although he never lived up to the early hype of when he played in the middle.

[Disco]

Quite a good interview with Cole, as was the one with him in The Guardian the other week.

 

Shame he lost his way after that injury, as he was one of the few England players that more often than not always done himself justice at International Level.

 

Although he never lived up to the early hype of when he played in the middle.

 

Shouldn't have gone to Chelsea. Mourinho, to an extent, ruined him.

[Tooj]

Quite a good interview with Cole, as was the one with him in The Guardian the other week.

 

Shame he lost his way after that injury, as he was one of the few England players that more often than not always done himself justice at International Level.

 

Although he never lived up to the early hype of when he played in the middle.

 

Shouldn't have gone to Chelsea. Mourinho, to an extent, ruined him.

 

Aye. In his younger days, he was kind of like Hoddle, as in the fact those over here dubbed him a luxury player, whereas if he played on the continent he would have had a team built around him.

[Ishmael]

I see Dalglish is still spinning the Carroll cost -15 mil comedy line in the Observer this morning.  Think he's also down -15 on goals scored against his predecessor? 

 

Hope the pedants don't take this post too seriously.  Pedants or resident Liverpool fans...

[AliGupter]

-£15m is closer to his true value, so at least he's getting something right there.

[Ronaldo]

Quite a good interview with Cole, as was the one with him in The Guardian the other week.

 

Shame he lost his way after that injury, as he was one of the few England players that more often than not always done himself justice at International Level.

 

Although he never lived up to the early hype of when he played in the middle.

 

Shouldn't have gone to Chelsea. Mourinho, to an extent, ruined him.

 

Aye. In his younger days, he was kind of like Hoddle, as in the fact those over here dubbed him a luxury player, whereas if he played on the continent he would have had a team built around him.

 

Which continent would that be? I always felt he missed something.

[Guest Haris Vuckic]

5-5

[Sifu]

5-5

 

Reasonable.

[LesPaul]

Think it stays 4-4

[wormy]

12-9