Dr Venkman Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they are wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who plays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 As seems likely that the Idea is the 4-2-3-1 with HBA in the hole, I doubt he's meant to do much tracking back, since we are operating with 2 midfielders in the holding position, and even if Cabaye is attack minded he also does a lot of the defending, this gives us the extra cover to theoretically let HBA have a freer role, as opposed to operating a 4-1-4-1 or something where you might be doing defence work further up or such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have no problem with Hatem losing the ball as he is always trying to do something positive, and that is exactly what we needed yesterday. However, I think Pardew is wrong to play him as a 10 as he does have the potential to damage ourselves there. I think he should play wide right of a 3 (with pretty much full freedom to drift) ala Messi a few years ago. I believe Rijkard did something similar with Ronaldinho when he took charge; recognising his extreme talent but also his ability to damage Barcas play by losing the ball in potentially dangerous areas. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they at wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who ays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. I've never said he doesn't track back, I've mentioned shying away from challenges and if you're playing in the middle then you have to be going for these, Robert and Ginola didn't play in the middle so it didn't bother me them not making challenges, not that I can remember them jumping out of many anyway. How many other players playing in the withdrawn role do you see pulling out of challenges that are there to be won? Taylor's comparison doesn't work as while he does make the odd poor tackle he still makes the tackle, nobody expects Ben Arfa to win every challenge but I expect him to attempt him to win them. It's nothing to do with playing devils advocate but calling it how I see it, if he plays well he will get plenty of credit from me but if he's going missing for periods, shying away from challenges, losing the ball by holding on to it too long and trying daft back heels when we're fighting for a winner then I'll call him up on it. The same goes for everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 I have no problem with Hatem losing the ball as he is always trying to do something positive, and that is exactly what we needed yesterday. However, I think Pardew is wrong to play him as a 10 as he does have the potential to damage ourselves there. I think he should play wide right of a 3 (with pretty much full freedom to drift) ala Messi a few years ago. I believe Rijkard did something similar with Ronaldinho when he took charge; recognising his extreme talent but also his ability to damage Barcas play by losing the ball in potentially dangerous areas. That's an excellent point, however is he worth dropping the current system for and do we have the players to make the change? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He clearly affected the game for the positive. Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Our midfielders were all free as he'd dragged theirs back to cover him alone on the edge of the area. His ability to make space & turn and run at a defence is second to none. He lost the ball a few times trying to do this, oh well. He helped us win the game trying to do it also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He clearly affected the game for the positive. Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Our midfielders were all free as he'd dragged theirs back to cover him alone on the edge of the area. His ability to make space & turn and run at a defence is second to none. He lost the ball a few times trying to do this, oh well. He helped us win the game trying to do it also. This. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He clearly affected the game for the positive. Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Our midfielders were all free as he'd dragged theirs back to cover him alone on the edge of the area. His ability to make space & turn and run at a defence is second to none. He lost the ball a few times trying to do this, oh well. He helped us win the game trying to do it also. Yeah this was a bit right, we were better dealing with their midfield 3 after he came on, even though wasn't really too much to write home about. He'll improve. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they at wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who ays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. I've never said he doesn't track back, You said a number 10 is expected to do it in the first sentence of your last post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they at wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who ays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. I've never said he doesn't track back, You said a number 10 is expected to do it in the first sentence of your last post. I know, I don't remember saying he doesn't track back though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He clearly affected the game for the positive. Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Our midfielders were all free as he'd dragged theirs back to cover him alone on the edge of the area. His ability to make space & turn and run at a defence is second to none. He lost the ball a few times trying to do this, oh well. He helped us win the game trying to do it also. Yep,and cabaye had space to run the ball through the middle as a result of Wigan midfielders dropping off to mark HBA. HBA's individual performances haven't been great but the change to the effectiveness of the team with him in it is undeniable imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Not really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they at wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who ays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. I've never said he doesn't track back, You said a number 10 is expected to do it in the first sentence of your last post. I know, I don't remember saying he doesn't track back though. You were just mentioning it as an aside then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Your main creative outlet is your main creative outlet,whether they at wide or through the middle,they're not commonly relied on for a lot of defensive work even though I'd probably say wide players are commonly expected to track back more than a play maker who ays off the striker. The only person who can tell us whether HBA is expected to track back and help for our team is Pardew,fwiw though I did see him getting back into positions to block passes yesterday and you can clearly see it on one passage of play on motd (I think for rodallega's late chance). There's been a lot of excitement about him and it seems like you're playing devils advocate which is your prerogative. The above stuff from both of us is all about opinions and I respect yours but I feel you're being a bit harsh on him. Imo he's twice changed the team for the better in the last two games,whilst losing the ball a bit. The Taylor comparison wasn't a direct one based on tackling,it was about weaknesses in a players game that aren't gonna change and accepting it. I've never said he doesn't track back, You said a number 10 is expected to do it in the first sentence of your last post. I know, I don't remember saying he doesn't track back though. You were just mentioning it as an aside then? I was mentioning it as what I expect from a someone playing in the hole when we don't have the ball, along with a list of other things which include making challenges when you've got a good chance of winning them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Not really. Solid argument Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He opened the game up yesterday, no doubt about it and that led to the goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Not really. Solid argument It was Jonas running with the ball that lead to us scoring. Ben Arfa's part in the attack was getting the ball played to him on the edge of the box by Marveaux, taking a few touches to the side trying to find a shooting chance and getting tackled instead, we were just lucky that the ball landed at the feet of Tiote. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Not convinced either way. I am more a proponent of strong team play as opposed to individuals. I enjoy when we have players who understand their roles and complement one another (Tiote/Cabaye Colo/Taylor). We have a back 4 who are widely regarded to be weak at FB and yet they have kept 4 clean sheets from 9. That speaks of teamwork. I am keen to see HBA adopt a role in the team that is complementary. Santon and Marveaux from what I have seen (limited I know) have done this. HBA has not "clicked" yet either because his style does not suit the team or he is unsure of his role. Time will tell but for now I am waiting to be convinced of his value to the team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Not really. Solid argument It was Jonas running with the ball that lead to us scoring. Ben Arfa's part in the attack was getting the ball played to him on the edge of the box by Marveaux, taking a few touches to the side trying to find a shooting chance and getting tackled instead, we were just lucky that the ball landed at the feet of Tiote. They had 5/6 players in the box by the time Marveaux & Ben Arfa were running across it as they were anticipating a shot, yeah lucky it landed at tiotes feet ofcourse. He was still free to recieve it. Either way they were getting penned back to cover our runners from shooting at that point which we didnt have previously. Ben Arfa was the only guy to run with it and get a solid shot in for us before that also. All he did wrong was knock a few touches to far, hopefully he'll sort that out. His potential seems quite obvious to see still. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Not really. Solid argument It was Jonas running with the ball that lead to us scoring. Ben Arfa's part in the attack was getting the ball played to him on the edge of the box by Marveaux, taking a few touches to the side trying to find a shooting chance and getting tackled instead, we were just lucky that the ball landed at the feet of Tiote. They had 5/6 players in the box by the time Marveaux & Ben Arfa were running across it as they were anticipating a shot, yeah lucky it landed at tiotes feet ofcourse. He was still free to recieve it. Either way they were getting penned back to cover our runners from shooting at that point which we didnt have previously. Ben Arfa was the only guy to run with it and get a solid shot in for us before that also. All he did wrong was knock a few touches to far, hopefully he'll sort that out. His potential seems quite obvious to see still. Didn't Jonas run at it and get a decent shot off too? Remember everyone shouting for a handball from the defender who jumped in to block it. Either way his job is to get goals now playing in that position so having a shot straight at the keeper doesn't deserve any sort of outstanding praise, to credit him with a solid part in the build up to the goal is stretching for something to give him credit for, he took 3 touches along the box and got tackled, as I said it was lucky for us the clearance fell straight to Tiote who picked Taylor out on the left who got a great ball in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 He clearly affected the game for the positive. Him running with the ball is what lead to us scoring. Our midfielders were all free as he'd dragged theirs back to cover him alone on the edge of the area. His ability to make space & turn and run at a defence is second to none. He lost the ball a few times trying to do this, oh well. He helped us win the game trying to do it also. Attacking wise, we looked a lot better in the second half when Ben Arfa came on. Of course, he lost possession here and there but his introduction was definitely a positive and it did open up space for others. Can't wait to see him up to speed fitness-wise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Baggio's still desperate for N'Zogbia to sign. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Baggio's still desperate for N'Zogbia to sign. Been rubbish for Villa according to the father in law. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 At this stage of his comeback I'd much sooner him try too much and give the ball away, get tackled by trying to take on one too many, or whatever, than if he was scared to run at people. His edge will come back with games in terms of what to do with the ball and when. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 It's definitely a relief that he's still got that fire in his belly, the desire to beat a man and leave him for dead. It's purely down to a lack of sharpness that he isn't doing it with any consistency yet. I'd be concerned if he wasn't trying to play his own game, cos that type of player, with that sort of ability, could be invaluable in that particular position. Not worried about him at all. Ninety minutes on Wednesday will do him the world of good. However I would be tempted to stick with Ba and Best for Stoke, simply from a tactical perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts