Should we be playing 2 proper forwards at home?

[Mr Logic]

4-4-2 is dead, and a lot of the teams that visit us at St James' would be delighted if we played a 4-4-2.

 

This was the tournament that confirmed the decline of the 4-4-2. Not simply because of the above statement, but because so many sides playing 4-4-2 did poorly and had problems stemming from the system – England, the US and Switzerland notable cases here. Although Uruguay did play with a fairly basic 4-4-2 in some games – in particular the penalty shoot-out win over Ghana, we should note that in addition to the factor of Forlan dropping deep, Uruguay also fielded the Arevalo-Perez combination in every game. Those two are both holding players, both sat very deep and rarely ventured forward, and acted no differently to the double pivot in most 4-2-3-1s. Therefore, even though Uruguay have been identified as playing 4-4-2, the system was not much different from a 4-2-3-1.

 

~from http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/09/03/fifa-2010-technical-report-summary

[LiquidAK]

Carroll

Jonas - Ben Arfa - Wayne

 

Would give us all the movement and pace we need imo, think Ben Arfa's a better option than Lovenkrands too who I have my doubts about.

[Wullie]

Carroll

Jonas - Ben Arfa - Wayne

 

Would give us all the movement and pace we need imo, think Ben Arfa's a better option than Lovenkrands too who I have my doubts about.

 

Would it get goals though? That's my concern.

[colinmk]

We don't have two forwards good enough, we just need to drop Nolan and play Ben Arfa off Carroll.

 

This.

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

I think Championship games are a step above the mackems reserves and Accrington Stanley like, he was no means annonimous in most games last season.

 

No ones saying he's the best thing since sliced bread, but it's a bit unfair to knock him considering his competition

 

He had a very good run between January and March, otherwise than that he was either injured or unavailable.  If he was good enough, why didn't any club come in for him before we signed him last september as well?

 

Birmingham did, atually.

[LiquidAK]

Carroll

Jonas - Ben Arfa - Wayne

 

Would give us all the movement and pace we need imo, think Ben Arfa's a better option than Lovenkrands too who I have my doubts about.

 

Would it get goals though? That's my concern.

 

More so than a 4-4-2 with Loven and Carroll upfront I think, Lovenkrands doesn't really offer anything that Ben Arfa doesn't in terms of finishing or shooting, and the latter is more likely to create for others as well.

[The Prophet]

Carroll

Jonas - Ben Arfa - Wayne

 

Would give us all the movement and pace we need imo, think Ben Arfa's a better option than Lovenkrands too who I have my doubts about.

 

All that worrys me about that is its dependant on Carroll's movement.

[LiquidAK]

Carroll

Jonas - Ben Arfa - Wayne

 

Would give us all the movement and pace we need imo, think Ben Arfa's a better option than Lovenkrands too who I have my doubts about.

 

All that worrys me about that is its dependant on Carroll's movement.

 

I agree it's not perfect, but it's the best option with what we have in my opinion.

[Mr Logic]

Well that's the crux of the matter really. Carroll doesn't fit the role of a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1. He is suitable as one of 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 though. Is that what Parky was asking, should we be playing a 4-4-2 system?

[JH]

Ben Arfa isn't a forward, he's an attacking midfielder and he likes to wander (which is probably a good part to his game), but whilst it'll make us quicker going forward, at times it'll still leave Carroll isolated up there - he needs a partner for home games.

 

And I'd rather not decide how good a player is with how he performs in a cup match at Accrington and his performance in a reserve match. Oh, and if we took player performances from the last time we were in the Premier League, Enrique and Colo would be on the bench atm as well.

[Wullie]

Well that's the crux of the matter really. Carroll doesn't fit the role of a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1. He is suitable as one of 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 though. Is that what Parky was asking, should we be playing a 4-4-2 system?

 

Nail on head, Carroll needs a partner. He's just not mobile enough to play up front alone. It's a concern. We've got some really good players but they don't fit together very well into an obvious system that will get the best out of them. Hughton's got some real thinking to do.

 

I do want to try Ben Arfa in the role Nolan currently occupies but to do that we really need the wide players to support the front man more, in the same way that, for example, Kalou and Malouda do for Chelsea. No reason why they can't do it, Jonas and Routledge are both good players, but it'll take some work.

[Parky]

Well that's the crux of the matter really. Carroll doesn't fit the role of a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1. He is suitable as one of 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 though. Is that what Parky was asking, should we be playing a 4-4-2 system?

 

Reading throught the thread I guess the title is misleading. What I meant was do we need two forwards high up the pitch if that makes sense ie Carroll not islolated. Watching him work so hard game after game, there needs to be a remedy, cause I think given the proper support and ammo he will score goals, he has no fear as is often the case with rookie PL strikers. The last thing we need this season is for him to get disheartened chasing lost causes game after game.

 

The other concern regarding the way we set up of coursse is that when we have the ball, the immediate first phase options are limited as our midfield is busy getting up the pitch and re-oraganising for an attack, this again affects movement and people being available for the ball - this is one of the reasons Bafra is coming more and more inside, cause instinvtively he feels there is a massive gap there.

You can play 4411 but the support striker needs to be fast and hit postions and space early or the opp get organised and behind the ball. as someone said earlier this is one of the biggest problems with Nolan casue he slows everything down and we lose momentum.

 

Mosty PL teams score on the break (perhaps not Arsenal who move up as a unit). The reason is there is enough panic and out of postion players for the team breaking to take advantage of. We really are crying out for a little Bearsley type. The closest we have is Bafra and I'd give him a free role with special consideration to go beyond Carroll and Barton needs to do that more cause he has goals in him as well.

 

 

[Parky]

Well that's the crux of the matter really. Carroll doesn't fit the role of a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1. He is suitable as one of 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 though. Is that what Parky was asking, should we be playing a 4-4-2 system?

 

Nail on head, Carroll needs a partner. He's just not mobile enough to play up front alone. It's a concern. We've got some really good players but they don't fit together very well into an obvious system that will get the best out of them. Hughton's got some real thinking to do.

 

I do want to try Ben Arfa in the role Nolan currently occupies but to do that we really need the wide players to support the front man more, in the same way that, for example, Kalou and Malouda do for Chelsea. No reason why they can't do it, Jonas and Routledge are both good players, but it'll take some work.

 

Malouda is a good example of how Bafra wants to play, his breakthrough after a poor first season was when he was given the licesne to play more centrally for Chelsea.

[TRon]

Well that's the crux of the matter really. Carroll doesn't fit the role of a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1. He is suitable as one of 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 though. Is that what Parky was asking, should we be playing a 4-4-2 system?

 

Nail on head, Carroll needs a partner. He's just not mobile enough to play up front alone. It's a concern. We've got some really good players but they don't fit together very well into an obvious system that will get the best out of them. Hughton's got some real thinking to do.

 

I do want to try Ben Arfa in the role Nolan currently occupies but to do that we really need the wide players to support the front man more, in the same way that, for example, Kalou and Malouda do for Chelsea. No reason why they can't do it, Jonas and Routledge are both good players, but it'll take some work.

 

While we are using Chelsea as an example, we could also use Lampard as an example of how the central midfielder can provide valuable goals in a 4-4-1-1 system. It's what Nolan was initially bought for until it was realised that he has the legs of a pensioner. If Barton's going to play alongside a holding midfielder like Tiote then he should also be getting in the box more.

[Wullie]

Well that's the crux of the matter really. Carroll doesn't fit the role of a lone striker in a 4-2-3-1. He is suitable as one of 2 forwards in a 4-4-2 though. Is that what Parky was asking, should we be playing a 4-4-2 system?

 

Nail on head, Carroll needs a partner. He's just not mobile enough to play up front alone. It's a concern. We've got some really good players but they don't fit together very well into an obvious system that will get the best out of them. Hughton's got some real thinking to do.

 

I do want to try Ben Arfa in the role Nolan currently occupies but to do that we really need the wide players to support the front man more, in the same way that, for example, Kalou and Malouda do for Chelsea. No reason why they can't do it, Jonas and Routledge are both good players, but it'll take some work.

 

While we are using Chelsea as an example, we could also use Lampard as an example of how the central midfielder can provide valuable goals in a 4-4-1-1 system. It's what Nolan was initially bought for until it was realised that he has the legs of a pensioner. If Barton's going to play alongside a holding midfielder like Tiote then he should also be getting in the box more.

 

Although I don't want to do him down because he's a great player, Lampard's basically made a world class career for himself simply from being on the edge of the box at the right time and keeping his shots low and true, it's that simple. No reason whatsoever that Barton shouldn't be able to get himself a few goals a season.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Carroll

Jonas - Ben Arfa - Wayne

 

Would give us all the movement and pace we need imo, think Ben Arfa's a better option than Lovenkrands too who I have my doubts about.

 

All that worrys me about that is its dependant on Carroll's movement.

I think it's quite the opposite tbh if anything it requires the movement of Jonas and Routledge much more. They have shown a great ability in the past to make some clever runs between defenders, as long as they get into those positions, all Carroll has to do is move to get some space to get a shot off. Carroll has to be the 'fixed' point of our attack with the 3 behind him playing 'fluidly'.

 

If you bring Ben Arfa into the equation then, yes, he likes to roam but i did see him make some penetrating runs off the ball into the box against Stoke. The good thing for Ben Arfa is that he will provide an option for the wingers but not back or to the side, actually ahead of them, something Nolan just doesn't do. I mean Carroll's biggest problem atm is that he's double marked, with Ben Arfa off him though defenders will have to be a lot more cautious.

[Cronky]

It's an interesting debate, but every alternative seems to carry as many concerns as the current Carroll-Nolan arrangement. I'd give it a bit longer to see what develops.

 

Ideally, you'd have a fast, creative striker playing around Carroll, but Lovenkrands has looked terrible in his two games this season, and wasn't that convincing before. Ranger still looks inexperienced.

 

Ben Arfa looks the best bet, but I quite liked the shape of our midfield in the first half and that roving role looked right for him. I wouldn't want to sacrifice that unless it was necessary. You might say we didn't create many chances for all the possession, but it's early days and that formation should be given a bit more time to develop.

[Parky]

It's clear now it has to be Shola and Carroll at home. There is something wierd about Shola this season I get the feeling he'll score when he comes on, never really felt that before.

[Guest Stephen927]

If the second striker is Lovenkrands then I'd go Carroll or Ameobi with Nolan in behind everytime.

[Ronaldo]

If the second striker is Lovenkrands, we're relegated. Fortunately it won't be.

[Doug]

If the second striker is Lovenkrands then I'd go Carroll or Ameobi with Nolan in behind everytime.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If we had two good forwards that were good enough, I'd say definitely yes.

 

As it is, I'd say probably yes. But it has to be Carroll and Shola, no other two can do it in this league.

[Mick]

If we had two good forwards that were good enough, I'd say definitely yes.

 

As it is, I'd say probably yes. But it has to be Carroll and Shola, no other two can do it in this league.

 

I don't think that two can do it, as I've said somewhere else Shola is better coming off the bench.  If Shola played for 90 minutes the way he did when he came on yesterday then I'd agree, he doesn't.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I tend to agree Mick, sadly the alternative is 451 with Nolan, who is even more useless.

[Guest Stephen927]

If the second striker is Lovenkrands then I'd go Carroll or Ameobi with Nolan in behind everytime.

 

Because Lovenkrands was so much better, right?