Mole_Toonfan Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though. Yeah, you also said only Cruyff out of generation comes close. You do talk some shit. Agree with KI in the sense that Messi is for me the best I've seen and by far as well, but I'm yet to talk to one that has seen Messi and Maradona throughout their careers say Messi is the better player which I find so hard to believe. Same goes regarding the ones who have seen Pele. In the end I'm happy I've gotten to see Messi play because in terms of career and winning trophies, I think Cristiano might actually have had a better one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I'm not sure it's possible to actually get better than Messi. Maradona might be pretty much on par but since he's an utter cunt, it doesn't count. Same goes for Ronaldo for that matter. Tosser. Not jealous at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though. Yeah, you also said only Cruyff out of generation comes close. You do talk some shit. Agree with KI in the sense that Messi is for me the best I've seen and by far as well, but I'm yet to talk to one that has seen Messi and Maradona throughout their careers say Messi is the better player which I find so hard to believe. Same goes regarding the ones who have seen Pele. In the end I'm happy I've gotten to see Messi play because in terms of career and winning trophies, I think Cristiano might actually have had a better one. You might not know anyone personally who reckons Messi is better, but there are many in the game who have seen both and in some cases played against Maradona who reckon Messi is the best of all time. I think it's only my girlfriend's dad who I know that's seen both and he reckons Messi's far superior to anyone he's ever seen like. He doesn't like Maradona because of the Hand of God stuff and all that though, so there's that. I think he'd actually have Cruyff ahead of Maradona as well tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marmoset Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi. That might be the case with fans, but the following pundits and ex pros are all quoted as saying he's the best ever having seen both Messi and Maradona, with some of them having seen Pele as well. Wenger, Simone, Guardiola, Beckenbaur, Venebles, Souness, Gullit, Lineker, Tostão, Adriano Galliani, Marcial Pina, Keane, Wright, Shearer, Maldini, original Ronaldo, and Cassano. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Maradona is under rated these days but even so I'm coming round to the idea that Lionel supercedes him. Pele however is a different bag of onions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I do admit i exaggerated for dramatic effect Also Spain's team would dominate regardless i agree, any team with Xavi in it did. I still feel like the CL is a higher quality of football these days though, World Cup was definitely better back in the day though. Yeah, you also said only Cruyff out of generation comes close. You do talk some s***. Agree with KI in the sense that Messi is for me the best I've seen and by far as well, but I'm yet to talk to one that has seen Messi and Maradona throughout their careers say Messi is the better player which I find so hard to believe. Same goes regarding the ones who have seen Pele. In the end I'm happy I've gotten to see Messi play because in terms of career and winning trophies, I think Cristiano might actually have had a better one. I said in terms of achievements, don't see how I am wrong considering his success with Holland and Ajax. Very few have had a club and an international career with so much success, maybe instead of saying "you don't half talk some shit" you should read what I said more carefully. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi. That might be the case with fans, but the following pundits and ex pros are all quoted as saying he's the best ever having seen both Messi and Maradona, with some of them having seen Pele as well. Wenger, Simone, Guardiola, Beckenbaur, Venebles, Souness, Gullit, Lineker, Tostão, Adriano Galliani, Marcial Pina, Keane, Wright, Shearer, Maldini, original Ronaldo, and Cassano. Fake news. Why invent a list? Beckenbauer, Ronaldo and Tostao all have said Pele from that I know of. Not sure about the rest though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 It's mainly an age thing isn't it? I was born in 91 and I'm sure as a kid most of the talk of the greatest by adults veered more towards Pele than Maradona, now Pele gets discussed a lot less in comparison, and the 35+ group tends to sway towards Maradona and the younger group Messi. That might be the case with fans, but the following pundits and ex pros are all quoted as saying he's the best ever having seen both Messi and Maradona, with some of them having seen Pele as well. Wenger, Simone, Guardiola, Beckenbaur, Venebles, Souness, Gullit, Lineker, Tostão, Adriano Galliani, Marcial Pina, Keane, Wright, Shearer, Maldini, original Ronaldo, and Cassano. Fake news. Why invent a list? Beckenbauer, Ronaldo and Tostao all have said Pele from that I know of. Not sure about the rest though. You could always have googled it instead of calling me a liar, like. I messed up with Beckenbaur, but... Tostao - "Messi is better than Maradona; he is more complete, more consistent, more spectacular. He is reinventing the game – a mix of the real and the virtual." Ronaldo - "Does Messi deserve to be called the greatest player in the world? Yes, for sure." EDIT: Yep, they don't say he's the best ever. It was a mistake though, I didn't 'invent' anything. All from here: https://genius.com/Lionel-messi-quotes-on-lionel-messi-annotated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
afar Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Such a shame this is the last international break for a while, I do look forward to these pointless international friendlies and the chance to get away from following my team for a couple of weeks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaizero Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so their has to be some perspective there, but it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Think it's more about the impact Maradona had on his teams vs the impact Messi has had rather than pure technical skill, tbh. At least that's how I see the argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". The modern players thing works both ways as well tbf. The training, nutrition and so on is better all-round so regardless of the perceived level of quality between eras, the players he's coming up against are definitely fitter, almost certainly faster, and probably with a higher level of stamina. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 I know he gets a lot of jip from us, but Souness sums it up perfectly when he talks about him on 'This Happens When Lionel Messi Faces The Greatest Defenders' - He's been saying he's the greatest of all time since 2011 as well tbf. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Souness is one of the better pundits tbh. I think he went through a period of bitterness towards us but whenever I've seen him recently especially he's been really good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Won the World Cup with ten guys who'd never kicked a football before iirc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henke Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Won the World Cup with ten guys who'd never kicked a football before iirc He failed to score in the final though, so clearly Messi is better. Even though he's never been close to winning the world cup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEEJ Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Big improvement on the last few, aesthetically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Won the World Cup with ten guys who'd never kicked a football before iirc He failed to score in the final though, so clearly Messi is better. Even though he's never been close to winning the world cup. wat He was incredibly close to winning the last world cup Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henke Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Won the World Cup with ten guys who'd never kicked a football before iirc He failed to score in the final though, so clearly Messi is better. Even though he's never been close to winning the world cup. wat He was incredibly close to winning the last world cup I was going off the fact Germany were easily the best side in the tournament. But if you want to count Messi making the final then we can offset that with Maradona making the final again in 1990. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Is there anything at all to back up Maradona being anywhere near Messi's level like? Stats wise it's not even close, and watching Messi it's hard to imagine anyone better. It just seems like nostalgia and/or a want to elevate history above the the present. I'm fine with it to a degree like, modern players will always have an 'advantage' as training methods and fitness improve etc, so there has to be some perspective there. But it just seems massively disingenuous to watch Messi now and be like "Nah, Maradona was better". Won the World Cup with ten guys who'd never kicked a football before iirc He failed to score in the final though, so clearly Messi is better. Even though he's never been close to winning the world cup. wat He was incredibly close to winning the last world cup I was going off the fact Germany were easily the best side in the tournament. But if you want to count Messi making the final then we can offset that with Maradona making the final again in 1990. Nah, you said he's never been close to winning a world cup which is just plain wrong. They were 7 minutes away from getting to penalties and were the better team for most of the game Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 What a strange post. EDIT: henke's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 9, 2017 Share Posted November 9, 2017 Argentina definitely had the better chances in the final before ET. Higuain went clean through early on and completely shanked it, and Messi himself put a chance he'd normally bury just wide. The fact that it even comes down to discussing the particulars of one football match over a career that's seen him score at not much less than a game per game over 500+ games shows how preposterous the debate is. If his team wins a particular game against, as henke says, the best team in the world, then he's the best individual player ever. If they don't win against that team, he's not. It's laughable. This argument says that by definition, if you come from a country that's generally not very good at football, or even, say, doesn't have a good defence during a particular time period, then you can never be the best player ever. So someone comes along in five years time that is clearly better than Messi, makes Messi look bog average, wins the Champions League every year with Northampton Town and scores at a rate of 5 goals a game for 1000 games, but he's Slovakian, or Chinese, or gets injured in the WC semi final. Sorry chum. Maradona's got the trophy in the cabinet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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