Dr Venkman Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Thought I'd stick in a couple of points for the 'pro' argument, as it seems to have been grossly misrepresented in the last few pages. Firstly, no one is saying that we're 6th purely because of Pardew. But it can't be ignored as well - football is essentially a results business. The fact that we are 6th has to count in his favour in some fashion. I really refuse to believe that we've lucked our way there, or that we've done it in spite of Pardew. I personally don't think that this current set-up is any better than 6th in its current state (squad depth way too thin, still littered with players like Simpson, Williamson etc.) If you look, there is also no one is saying that the football we are playing is 'good' either (we aren't blind). Yes, it has been good at times this season but it essentially hoof ball, which needs to be improved and very quickly - but again, it has also been producing results which is why some are hesitant to criticise it wholly. There is also no one saying that he is a brilliant manager, or a master tactician. But in the same breath, to say he is clueless as well is a bit unfair. He may only have one gameplan, or relies on some of his favourites in Taylor, Obertan etc. but that doesn't make him clueless, otherwise I might try my hand at PL managing next season if it's that easy - I might win the title with all those great players City have. It is essentially a results vs performances argument, not a "really happy with the football we're playing" vs "not happy with the football we're playing" argument as some seem to have been mistaken with. This is the crux of it for me, I'm expecting a sinking feeling during the first few games of next season as we go out and play exactly the same way. If he changes his style I'll applaud him for it but how likely do you think it is that the football's gonna change? You've said it needs to change fast but there's no way I can see it happening this season. If our scouts continue to bring in quality players there's a big chance that Pardew could be the weak link most weeks next season imo, which is why I wouldn't be against replacing him in the summer. I wouldn't criticise if he was kept on as well btw, I can appreciate both sides of the argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Top seven is the very least we should have expected given that 8th and 9th are Norwich and sunderland. In reality, he's one place above the minimum requirement. Aren't you forgetting teams like Villa and Stoke who didn't have a complete overhaul of players? Everton possibly also? We went backwards before we could go forwards, and we've actually gone very far forwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If a manager is to blame when a team does s***, then it has to work the other way too and the manager has to get the credit when a team does well. Pardew has done a brilliant job so far, no one and I mean NO f***er AT ALL though we would be where we are i the league come the end of February. Yes there has been a few blibs but this is football and these things happen to all clubs not just us. some had us for 7th wth a possibility of overtaking one of liverpool,arsenal, spurs. (turns out chelsea have moved into spurs place on the list. If you could spare the time I would like you to point out who. Not being funny with you btw, I just want to personally cyber-pat them on the pack. me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 One thing I will say is that managers who wouldn't have looked at us 14+ months ago, might just think with the players we've got and sign, they might fancy the job even if they don't have full control on who comes and goes. this, it would seem to make sense to me that a young manager would look at us as a club they could make their name at. terrific policy on incoming players, managers in the continent especially who are used to being given a squad to work with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 One thing I will say is that managers who wouldn't have looked at us 14+ months ago, might just think with the players we've got and sign, they might fancy the job even if they don't have full control on who comes and goes. this, it would seem to make sense to me that a young manager would look at us as a club they could make their name at. terrific policy on incoming players, managers in the continent especially who are used to being given a squad to work with. Avb will be available by the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If a manager is to blame when a team does s***, then it has to work the other way too and the manager has to get the credit when a team does well. Pardew has done a brilliant job so far, no one and I mean NO f***er AT ALL though we would be where we are i the league come the end of February. Yes there has been a few blibs but this is football and these things happen to all clubs not just us. some had us for 7th wth a possibility of overtaking one of liverpool,arsenal, spurs. (turns out chelsea have moved into spurs place on the list. If you could spare the time I would like you to point out who. Not being funny with you btw, I just want to personally cyber-pat them on the pack. me Well done squire, I applaud your optimism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 At the start of the season I thought that the absolute best we could have achieved this season was 7th. The top 6 were away and clear in my mind back in August. Having seen how ordinary Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal have been this season has made seeing points hoyed away like yesterday really frustrating. We'll never get a better chance to break into that little clique and we can't let all of the hard work of Autumn go to waste. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If a manager is to blame when a team does s***, then it has to work the other way too and the manager has to get the credit when a team does well. Pardew has done a brilliant job so far, no one and I mean NO f***er AT ALL though we would be where we are i the league come the end of February. Yes there has been a few blibs but this is football and these things happen to all clubs not just us. some had us for 7th wth a possibility of overtaking one of liverpool,arsenal, spurs. (turns out chelsea have moved into spurs place on the list. If you could spare the time I would like you to point out who. Not being funny with you btw, I just want to personally cyber-pat them on the pack. me Well done squire, I applaud your optimism. realism not optimism, we have a first 15 better than those apart from the top 5 or so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm happy with Pards mind, but while I used to think if he left we'd fall apart because no one would come, I don't think that's the case anymore. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Fail to see what Villa etc have to do with it. Fact is that finishing below Norwich or that lot is grounds for dismissal so he's doing ok from that point of view. Ok is all it is though. I said in the summer that finishing below 7th should be classed as failure and I stand by that, although I now think that given how good Ba is and how poor Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea are, that should be raised a place or two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Don't see him going anywhere due to the length of his contract. Still think giving a manager a five and a half year contract was crazy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 We're not going to replace him before next season, and even then it would only be if we were struggling particularly badly down the bottom of the table. And rightly so tbh, we don't need the circus of changing yet again. So any talk of his successor is completely pointless IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If a manager is to blame when a team does s***, then it has to work the other way too and the manager has to get the credit when a team does well. Pardew has done a brilliant job so far, no one and I mean NO f***er AT ALL though we would be where we are i the league come the end of February. Yes there has been a few blibs but this is football and these things happen to all clubs not just us. some had us for 7th wth a possibility of overtaking one of liverpool,arsenal, spurs. (turns out chelsea have moved into spurs place on the list. If you could spare the time I would like you to point out who. Not being funny with you btw, I just want to personally cyber-pat them on the pack. me Well done squire, I applaud your optimism. realism not optimism, we have a first 15 better than those apart from the top 5 or so. Debateable, but fair enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 One thing I will say is that managers who wouldn't have looked at us 14+ months ago, might just think with the players we've got and sign, they might fancy the job even if they don't have full control on who comes and goes. this, it would seem to make sense to me that a young manager would look at us as a club they could make their name at. terrific policy on incoming players, managers in the continent especially who are used to being given a squad to work with. At a club where we could sell a star player on any day during the transfer window, could fuck about with the contract negotiations of our club captain and could instantly piss off every football generation in the city with the swift change of a stadium name? Sounds like a dream job Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.S.R. Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Top seven is the very least we should have expected given that 8th and 9th are Norwich and sunderland. In reality, he's one place above the minimum requirement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Fail to see what Villa etc have to do with it. Fact is that finishing below Norwich or that lot is grounds for dismissal so he's doing ok from that point of view. Ok is all it is though. I said in the summer that finishing below 7th should be classed as failure and I stand by that, although I now think that given how good Ba is and how poor Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea are, that should be raised a place or two. So finishing below 5th or 6th would be a failure? Are you kidding me? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Well put it this way, if we finish 7th from where we are now given our fixtures, the fact that we're nearly full strength and the state of the teams around us, I'll be bitterly disappointed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Top seven is the very least we should have expected given that 8th and 9th are Norwich and sunderland. In reality, he's one place above the minimum requirement. Ignoring that we're 8-10 points ahead of those positions very nicely Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Errr...get us into the top 7 of the league with an opportunity to play European football next season, despite having a slightly better than average squad and minimal spending money. After taking over a squad who were 100% behind the previous manager and maintaining good performances despite a total overhaul of key players. Like I said, there are some spackers on here, and i mean that in the least offensive way that can be interpreted. He's a one trick pony who has lucked himself into a job and for the first half of the season he lucked himself through games which we didn't deserve to get points from. We were getting points because Ba was getting goals from nothing when the service to him was poor yet he still managed to pull balls from behind him to bury when realistically he shouldn’t have had a chance. Our football has for much of the time been turgid dross but we’ve got away with it by going to places like QPR and lucking a draw. He’s lucked his way to getting a point at home against Spurs when he brought on the same stroller as he did yesterday but Stroller managed a goal. Our performances are now getting the kind of results that we deserved earlier in the season and instead of turning nothing performances into points, we’re starting to go the other way and turning fortunate positions into negative results. Our football under Pardew has been poor because that’s the way he likes to play football. We have good players who are watching the ball fly past them as the ball goes from back to front with one big hoof. The players who could control games are being bypassed for much of the game. The amount of money spent isn't a reflection on the type of players we've brought in. We've spent low and still managed to bring in quality because unlike Pardew, Carr is actually good at his job and we've benefited from that in as much as we have good players, even if the manager doesn't know how to get the best out of them. Can you list these good performances that you mention? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Well put it this way, if we finish 7th from where we are now given our fixtures, the fact that we're nearly full strength and the state of the teams around us, I'll be bitterly disappointed. Whlst it would be dissappointing, to go as far as calling it a failure is a bit pathetic imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Errr...get us into the top 7 of the league with an opportunity to play European football next season, despite having a slightly better than average squad and minimal spending money. After taking over a squad who were 100% behind the previous manager and maintaining good performances despite a total overhaul of key players. Like I said, there are some spackers on here, and i mean that in the least offensive way that can be interpreted. He's a one trick pony who has lucked himself into a job and for the first half of the season he lucked himself through games which we didn't deserve to get points from. We were getting points because Ba was getting goals from nothing when the service to him was poor yet he still managed to pull balls from behind him to bury when realistically he shouldn’t have had a chance. Our football has for much of the time been turgid dross but we’ve got away with it by going to places like QPR and lucking a draw. He’s lucked his way to getting a point at home against Spurs when he brought on the same stroller as he did yesterday but Stroller managed a goal. Our performances are now getting the kind of results that we deserved earlier in the season and instead of turning nothing performances into points, we’re starting to go the other way and turning fortunate positions into negative results. Our football under Pardew has been poor because that’s the way he likes to play football. We have good players who are watching the ball fly past them as the ball goes from back to front with one big hoof. The players who could control games are being bypassed for much of the game. The amount of money spent isn't a reflection on the type of players we've brought in. We've spent low and still managed to bring in quality because unlike Pardew, Carr is actually good at his job and we've benefited from that in as much as we have good players, even if the manager doesn't know how to get the best out of them. Can you list these good performances that you mention? spurs,man utd, villa away, stoke. the tactics aren't all hoofball. first half v fulham was as good as i've seen us actually play but with little end product due to the forwards we had playing. yesterday for some reason pardew decided to go long and it failed, can't really say it's a seaqson long tactic, bit like the high line we ALWAYS play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Always baffles me when people use Ba to discredit Pardew somehow. He was pretty key in us signing Ba no ? That was the one signing that Carr had little input in from what ive read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Mick's just nailed it an has been saying what Wullie,HTT and myself have for a while.there have been others too but now I feel like there's a change happening throughout the support.long term success is building a team that understands how to play together,where everyone has a role and contributes.long term success for me is passing and moving the ball round well.how many top four/five sides in the last decade have moved it round as badly as we do?success isn't points man,not in the long term,it's football and we've shown so few signs this season that pardew can get us to play football.I could understand it if we had last year's squad.but now?no thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Think this is getting a bit silly, we are sixth ffs in our second season back in the top flight, during a season where we have lost Tiote and Ba for a run of games and had Cabaye suspended. Regardless what people think of the style Pardew has over achieved with the squad at his disposal, it would be madness to change our manager once again when what we need is a period of stability. The best we could attract after Bobby was Souness, we've since had 7ish managers if we boot another who is likely to get us a top six/seven because he didn't play pretty enough football for us then who is going to want to come here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Two-nil is always a scoreline where, if they can get that goal, if they get the next one they’re back in the game. I just felt if I could have changed it just before I did we could have restricted that. I don't get this. Is he referring to their first goal, scored just five minutes after the break? Or the second goal, where he brought on two subs as we were defending a set piece? At least he's accepting some responsibility in hindsight, I guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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