thomas Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 For the purposes of .. uh. er. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Neither did Pardew. We were 11th. Well, we were comfortable enough to be shocked at Hughton's departure. Cant compare it to the shambles Sourness left us in. Give the very different circumstances of their arrivals and the very different teams they inherited it's a bit of a strange comparison to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Why do we need to compare his record to Roeder? They're both cockney's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.S.R. Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Former West Ham managers with the insulation of an impressive run of results, belying their limitations, which become more evident towards the end of their employment here. He's a suave Roeder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Former West Ham managers with the insulation of an impressive run of results, belying their limitations, which become more evident towards the end of their employment here. Ah, you have the future sight. Apologies for doubting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pintofscottsellers Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Mackems are kicking off about some incident with O'Niell, what happened there? did Pardew celebrate in front of them or something? They see to forget Steve Bruce sprinting down the touch line last season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdckelly Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 whereas Roeder's good bit was towards the end of a season while Pardews doing well over a full season yes he's made mistakes however here are the facts, we are 6th in the table he's gotten more right this season than he's got wrong. Was anyone seriously expecting us to be in this position pre season? more than a few was worried about relegation Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Why do we need to compare his record to Roeder? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.S.R. Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Nobody has to, but as a benchmark (not successful, not catastrophically bad) he's a useful comparison. A lot more revealing than finishing above Stoke and Swansea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 If Hughton took us as far as he could, then f*** me Pardew did a while ago with his shrewd transfer dealings [if indeed he even had much to do with them]. What else has he got left to offer? Serious question. What are his strengths as a manager? As a fan who found the Hughton dismissal incredibly harsh, to do the same with Pardew would be somewhat perplexing. Pardew is limited as a manager I think we're all aware of that but he has brought a lot of strengths to the table and it's a key contributing factor in our impressive league position. Along with maticulous pre-match preperation Pardew normally has us performing as a unit who are not only well organised but are also difficult to turn over. He has players who would look more at home in the tier below supplemeting a decent core of quality while managing to maintian the excellent team spirit established within the Hughton era. To deny him any credit at would be absolutely staggering in my view. I agree with you that Pardew is limited. With respect to the oft-touted 'meticulous pre-match preparation', the squad have on numerous occasions been quoted as being pleased with his organisational skills, and whilst I find that very commendable, it's actually quite incriminating too. For all his planning and research, he has been unable to assert his authority over teams, highlight their weaknesses or emphasise our strengths. We've won (where we have won) mostly by nicked goals and without controlling play for more than twenty minutes per game. This suggests to me that despite his laudable organisational skills, he is for the most part unable to apply anything he learns and prise performances out of what are (for me) undeniably talented resources. We have, for most of the season, become difficult to turn over. Most of that was early season though if we're honest. Since that Man City match, I wouldn't call it "difficult to turn over" so much as quite lucky frankly. As usual, I will emphasise that good defending/keeping isn't luck, but when the opposition dictate the tempo and create more clear cut chances on a regular basis - I certainly don't think 'luck' doesn't play a part. That's just me, and I know it's a bit of a woolly argument - but games at Ewood, Molineux, OT, Anfield, Loftus Road and arguably others have been occasions where we've got more than our performance deserved - and but for better opposition finishing (as opposed to anything we did correctly) could easily have run away from us into Spurs (a) and Fulham (a) horror shows. I don't call that being 'difficult to turn over' although I would understand, if not agree, with the opposing viewpoint. Tactically incapable and an idiot, quite frankly. 1,208 pages attesting to the fact that 95% of the board know HBA should be a starter, or bedded in and a system established around him (and other key players) for the long-term benefit of the team. Does he deserve credit for bringing HBA on at half-time? Does he f***. Not after surrendering first-half to long-ball tactics. Deserves as much credit as McClaren for throwing on more strikers in the Eufa Cup when he was a couple of goals down the other year. When your plans fail so comprehensively and you're forced to change something, that isn't inspired/brave... it's desperate and a forced last resort. Pardew, like many managers is a creature of habit. He rigidly sticks to 4-4-2, he prefers his hard working wingers and he likes to keep a consistent back four. This doesn't make him a tactical idiot, in fact he's proved to be anything but. Take Stoke for example where prior research revealed the opposition to have little threat at full back nor in the middle, this allowed us to double up on the wingers and nullify their main threat. This isn't to say he has his limitations, as was brutally exposed by Martin Jol at the Cottage, this is one the reasons I believe he is an average manager. To go along with that I wholeheartedly agree on the Ben Arfa point, his absence has been a major negative during the Pardew reign to date. You can point to that one match, and not many others I'd wager. Even I feel rather harsh saying a broken clock is right twice a day, but it does feel rather apt here given the weight of supporting evidence in the opposing column! The reason I called him an idiot (other than post-match anger!) is because of long-term issues which have not been sufficiently rectified or even addressed. Among these include his ability to change things/react during 90 minutes, his proclivity to wait until things break before he changes anything (cf. Chelsea at home), his persistence with Obertan until he got injured (he might still be starting if he hadn't been ) and top-of-the-tree of my worries... the dogshit football we play 80% of the time. Even against weak opposition. Then there's how we cede momentum when we're on top. Wolves (h) was the first time we've been punished notably for it - but many, many people have been bleating on about the risks he has been running since the very first games in the season (Wolves (a), Everton (h) among others). These are examples off the top of my head - I worry how many 'warning games' I could dig out if I did any considered research. These are all long-term issues which seem to go over the top of his head. This strikes me as a much better gauge of his abilities than isolated matches. I try to look at progression and development. At the start of the season, I remember saying I'd be interested to see how he learns and adapts.. and that there's room for improvement for both the team and the manager. He hasn't shown much improvement, if I'm honest. If he'd shown even medium-sized strides in the right direction I'd be edified that the work-in-progress is a worthwhile exercise. I know great teams don't happen overnight and there is great merit in having tenures the length of Wenger, Ferguson etc... but not if you've backed Steve Bruce, McLeish. Patience with a manager, in and of itself, doesn't guarantee any decent yield for your time! I'm not saying Pardew is as bad as them, but I hope you see what I mean. It's now March, and Pardew is still alienating our best creative player while we continue to hoof from Krul to Cisse for a solid 45 minutes. That's daft in my book. We had to hit our season nadir today at half-time before he brought on HBA. As I said, that's desperation - not growth. Pig-sick of this fraud - strip Gupter of his award and give it to Pardew. He's a glorified PR man. Doesn't look like he has a foggiest about football - just prozone. This 'fraud' has us sitting sixth in the league, two points behind Chelsea in fifth and while I agree we haven't always played our best stuff this season we're still having an excellent campaign to date. Do you feel a glorified PR man would have us achieving the same? Or are you being a little harsh? For the above reasons, I don't think I am being especially harsh. Maybe I'm playing up to the 'delusional Mag' but I'm willing to run that gauntlet. In terms of personnel, even accounting for our poor squad depth, we are top seven minimum IMO (on the strength of our first-team core/relatively injury-free season). Even taking into account that we only have 3 CBs. Draw what conclusions you will over the strength of the league, but I do think that is true for 2011/12. As ever, I sincerely hope he improves because it seems for better or worse he'll be here for a while. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 He's nothing like Roeder I did like Roeder though, a thoroughly decent chap! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 We are sixth for the price of Cisse and a bore hole, in a season where we have used Shola, Guthrie, Perch, Raylor, Simpson, Willo, Obertan and Best. Lost Ba & Tiote to the CofN, had Cabaye suspended, Saylor broken. It's a f***ing miracle we are sixth not an under achievement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 e are sixth for the price of Cisse and a bore hole, in a season where we have used Shola, Guthrie, Perch, Raylor, Simpson, Willo, Obertan and Best. Lost Ba & Tiote to the CofN, had Cabaye suspended, Saylor broken. It's a fucking miracle we are sixth not an under achievement. I tend to agree mate, people seem keen to focus on the good players we have as a reason not to rate Pardew, but they tend to forget about the absolutely terrible ones we have as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Just wanted to say a thumbs up to Beren,nailed my current thoughts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. What's up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. Depends on how you judge it though doesn't it - I don't think anybody expected Liverpool, Chelsea and to a lesser extent Arsenal to be as dismal as they have been. Think we could have pushed for a Champions League place given how much better some of our players are than we expected them to be but the last two home games have been really stinking performances. We'd need to beat Arsenal next week to keep that dream alive. 2 points from Wolves and the mackems at home with nigh-on a full strength side (only Taylor absent) is completely unacceptable imo. We have just made a significant strengthening in January but not seeing the benefit. He seems to think having an extra clinical striker is a good reason to play a more negative game - create less chances that are more likely to be taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. What's up? The short sightedness of your post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 e are sixth for the price of Cisse and a bore hole, in a season where we have used Shola, Guthrie, Perch, Raylor, Simpson, Willo, Obertan and Best. Lost Ba & Tiote to the CofN, had Cabaye suspended, Saylor broken. It's a fucking miracle we are sixth not an under achievement. I tend to agree mate, people seem keen to focus on the good players we have as a reason not to rate Pardew, but they tend to forget about the absolutely terrible ones we have as well. A lot of the time he's picking the "absolutely terrible" ones ahead of the good ones though isn't he? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. What's up? The short sightedness of your post. I'm not saying he'll have to be hailed as the next Mourinho based on this season's results. But if he lasts a season and manages us into (say) 6th place then I would say he's done a good job. For me that's just as good an indicator as whether his stats are better or worse than Glenn Roeder's. Don't see how using a season's results to judge how a manager has performed is short-sighted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Just wanted to say a thumbs up to Beren,nailed my current thoughts He's argued the point well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 e are sixth for the price of Cisse and a bore hole, in a season where we have used Shola, Guthrie, Perch, Raylor, Simpson, Willo, Obertan and Best. Lost Ba & Tiote to the CofN, had Cabaye suspended, Saylor broken. It's a fucking miracle we are sixth not an under achievement. I tend to agree mate, people seem keen to focus on the good players we have as a reason not to rate Pardew, but they tend to forget about the absolutely terrible ones we have as well. A lot of the time he's picking the "absolutely terrible" ones ahead of the good ones though isn't he? Well sometimes he makes decisions that I don't agree with, leaving out HBA being the main one. What I mean is that the fundamental strength of our squad is often used as a reason to say Pardew's work has just been average, but I don't think that's fair when we're carrying some of the players Si mentions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 e are sixth for the price of Cisse and a bore hole, in a season where we have used Shola, Guthrie, Perch, Raylor, Simpson, Willo, Obertan and Best. Lost Ba & Tiote to the CofN, had Cabaye suspended, Saylor broken. It's a fucking miracle we are sixth not an under achievement. I tend to agree mate, people seem keen to focus on the good players we have as a reason not to rate Pardew, but they tend to forget about the absolutely terrible ones we have as well. A lot of the time he's picking the "absolutely terrible" ones ahead of the good ones though isn't he? Well sometimes he makes decisions that I don't agree with, leaving out HBA being the main one. What I mean is that the fundamental strength of our squad is often used as a reason to say Pardew's work has just been average, but I don't think that's fair when we're carrying some of the players Si mentions. Four of the eight players he mentions have been chosen ahead of HBA. That's Pardew's decision. It's also his decision to start Simpson every single game and leave him on for the full 90 minutes every single game. If we're carrying these players, why is he so desperate to have them in the team at all costs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think league position will be a decent indicator of how he's done like, that's kind of the point of a league. What's up? The short sightedness of your post. I'm not saying he'll have to be hailed as the next Mourinho based on this season's results. But if he lasts a season and manages us into (say) 6th place then I would say he's done a good job. For me that's just as good an indicator as whether his stats are better or worse than Glenn Roeder's. Don't see how using a season's results to judge how a manager has performed is short-sighted. If he finishes 6th then fine, fair enough. He won't though the way he's set up the squad on match days. If it doesn't change right now then no chance, and that's what people are worried about and righty so. For me it's looking at the bigger picture instead of just looking at the table and treating football as just a game of statistics. I certainly don't support the vs GR thing either, two different scenarios, two completely different teams and expectations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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