Alan Pardew

[thedudeabides]

"The best form of defence is attack" is basically a meaningless cliche that doesn't have any weight in this argument. Our biggest strength this season has been our compactness, work rate and willingness to battle for points. I would personally love to see a better style of football, but surely everyone can see why Pardew is reluctant to suddenly chuck what has worked for him so far.

 

Indeed.

 

More to the point, we simply don't have the players to do it.

 

Apart from Hatem Ben Messi obviously.

[thedudeabides]

If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit.

 

It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see.

 

There's something in this, position does make you greedy and objectively it would look ridiculous to almost all fans of other teams to see people in here saying they're not happy but that's what being a fan of your own club is about: Inspecting and analysing everything minutely and I think the scrutiny is worthy and has been for a while. You're right about us being greedy for good football but this team can play so much better than it has, confidence will help us but so will positive tactics and Pardew telling his players to go out there and really go hard at the opposition rather than waiting for counters, moving the ball slowly up the field and hoping that we can ping in an ok cross. We have the speed, skill and ball-players to move it around, get in behind people and really hurt defences.

 

No, no we don't.

[gbandit]

No, no we don't.

 

We really do man, you've just been convinced we can't by Pardew's style of football. If you don't think that Santon, Jonas, Cisse, Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa or Ba are capable of keeping the ball down and moving around defences then you're wrong. Cisse has pace, Ba has great movement and can turn a man exceptionally well. Ben Arfa can walk through people and create space for himself no problems at all and Santon can get in behind teams no problem. If we didn't break so incredibly slowly and were willing to commit more men forward at times instead of slowly creating a very ordered line of attack, then passing it back along the half way line from one touchline to the next, then pushing on, we'd be able to get behind defences instead of letting them get organised. We are far too defensively disciplined when on the break

[thedudeabides]

No, no we don't.

 

We really do man, you've just been convinced we can't by Pardew's style of football. If you don't think that Santon, Jonas, Cisse, Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa or Ba are capable of keeping the ball down and moving around defences then you're wrong. Cisse has pace, Ba has great movement and can turn a man exceptionally well. Ben Arfa can walk through people and create space for himself no problems at all and Santon can get in behind teams no problem. If we didn't break so incredibly slowly and were willing to commit more men forward at times instead of slowly creating a very ordered line of attack, then passing it back along the half way line from one touchline to the next, then pushing on, we'd be able to get behind defences instead of letting them get organised. We are far too defensively disciplined when on the break

 

You want to knock the Championship Manager on the head son.

[gbandit]

I've never played champ man,football manager or any of those games even once in my life.don't know what it was I said that made you think that but you're wrong.I guess you think we're maximizing our players at the moment and playing to their strengths?not trying to come across like a dick but we're obviously coming fon two totally different places

[Dave]

I've never played champ man,football manager or any of those games even once in my life.don't know what it was I said that made you think that but you're wrong.I guess you think we're maximizing our players at the moment and playing to their strengths?not trying to come across like a dick but we're obviously coming fon two totally different places

 

Don't bother. He's got nowt to contribute to the forum other than to say everyone is a computer game playing child/arsehole. Not a clue why he still comes on.

[gbandit]

I've never played champ man,football manager or any of those games even once in my life.don't know what it was I said that made you think that but you're wrong.I guess you think we're maximizing our players at the moment and playing to their strengths?not trying to come across like a dick but we're obviously coming fon two totally different places

 

Don't bother. He's got nowt to contribute to the forum other than to say everyone is a computer game playing child/arsehole. Not a clue why he still comes on.

 

No worries man, I don't mind debating with people who have a completely different opinion but it gets pointless when they stop talking about football

[SEMTEX]

People can think whatever they want, most the negative Pardew comments are not without merit (sans HTT), but my fear is that this kind of shit can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media picks up on murmurs from fans, however few, and it just snowballs. I'm absolutely fucking fed up of everything changing every 2 years, I just want a prolonged period of sensible. As far as I'm concerned, we're doing a pretty fucking good job of sensible, with better results than expected. Recent form isn't hopeful, but I have no reason to believe we won't return to the form of earlier in the year, where we were putting away teams that we would've drawn with (or lost to) in years gone by. This will probably need Pards to re-evaluate a few things in his tactics/lineups, but I'm willing to put faith in him that he will steer us in the right direction. I'm only ready to freak out if we start next season playing poorly and find ourselves in the bottom half at Christmas.

 

So in conclusion, shush (for now). I'm scared

[HawK]

A well thought-out post HawK and you obviously have a lot of experience following the club, but I can't agree with your assessment really.

 

We have a squad that has some very good, some good and some terrible players. Pardew has managed that squad to a very respectable league position that was beyond most people's expectations at the start of the season. He took over from a popular manager at a 'crisis club' and he's steered a course through it all.

 

Whether or not the default position of our players is higher or lower than the current league position depends on so many factors that it's almost impossible to argue either way. Everyone who finishes in any league position does so because someone underperforms or overperforms, or their rivals collect slightly more or less points than expected. 

 

One of the factors of success or failure is the manager. If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit.

 

It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see.

 

Cheers, and no you haven't done a Ronaldo I think I was entitled to one snipe in that post lol. This isn't a reply to you directly as such, I've read over the comments of quite a few.

 

It does all come down to a matter of opinion, and that's the magic that will either divide or unite fans, sack or back a manager or make or break a player. Anyone is welcome to disagree with comparative squad strength, as it is opinion-based, but not without a sound grounding in the facts though. We've rarely had such international pedigree throughout our team, but I would highlight in particular the use of our 2 defensive midfielders, Cabaye and Tiote. The tactical naivety that I was alluding to was essentially that Pardew was playing for the second ball* for most of the game, assuming our midfield pairing would mop them up time and time again, regardless of how our front 2 coped with it. A sound strategy - if you don't also instruct them both to sit practically 5 yards in front of Williamson and Coloccini - except the Sunderland players were wise to this and the huge gap between our front 2 and our midfield 2 was always filled with red and white shirts every time Krul punted it upfield. It's something remedied by a very quick touchline shout to your nearest player to feed on, 'Cabaye, push up on the long balls to get the second ball'.

 

Every manager has qualities, such as those I highlighted earlier with Pardew, but the key, key area that a good/top manager will have, is the footballing acumen/nous to change and adapt to your opposition each game and to be able to fix things when they are no longer working. Even when we were against 10 men, both our fullbacks refused to get forward and support the attack. It's a key thing in today's 4-4-2, with a strong midfield partnership, in possession you should be aiming to get your fullbacks moving forward in line with the ball while your centrebacks sit deep, and Pardew really hasn't cottoned on to this.

 

But bringing the above to a close, Yohan Cabaye is a player who plays at the centre of a French team that has just beaten Germany 2-1 in Germany, a team that the best of the English can't hope to touch right now. We all know how good Tiote is. I can't see beyond poor tactical setup as to why these 2 are not absolutely dominating games even when against 4-5-1. Coloccini has been rightfully lauded as one of the best centre backs in the league, and already Krul is up there as a good keeper, although there aren't too many good keepers around right now. Demba Ba has been here a year and proven his class, Cisse yet to prove so but the signs are there for all to see that he can be successful.

 

We move on to players like Jonas, who until recently was a regular with Argentina, who's ability to retain the ball and hold up play is one of the reasons we were able to survive the second part of last season after Andy Carroll left. Hatem Ben Arfa has been described by French players as one of the most gifted players of his generation. Santon, although learning, has more experience than people give him credit for. He was able to keep CRonaldo in his pocket when he played for Inter in the Champions League.

 

Every team has their Taylors', their Simpsons and their Williamsons, but the difference between them and us is the ability of the manager to at least get them playing in the right manner and to accentuate the strengths of our best players, not refuse to play them due to a lack of tactical knowledge on how to do so. Because our recent history has been so dire, it's easy to be blinded to the very poor tactics by the league position, I can understand that, and I can understand an attitude of 'Ok, lets finish this up and push on next year'. But what I don't understand is how people can praise Pardew so highly for how 'he' has achieved this, I think it's mostly down to the quality of the players at his disposal and the outstanding work of Graham Carr to ensure our recruits don't even seem to need to gel.

 

I have to agree that we're doing OK now, in terms of results. But with the evidence on display with our performances, it's hard to see how a manager of Alan Pardew's ilk is going to get us any further than we are. I mentioned a false ceiling before, and he's the man holding it up right now.

 

* Just realised some may not get what I meant by second ball - It is what is referred to often as when the ball is hoofed upfield (first ball), the resulting header/layoff/knock down of that hoofball is called the second ball. I think Graham Taylor coined it, he invented the long ball after all lol.

[Dave]

People can think whatever they want, most the negative Pardew comments are not without merit (sans HTT), but my fear is that this kind of shit can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The media picks up on murmurs from fans, however few, and it just snowballs. I'm absolutely fucking fed up of everything changing every 2 years, I just want a prolonged period of sensible. As far as I'm concerned, we're doing a pretty fucking good job of sensible, with better results than expected. Recent form isn't hopeful, but I have no reason to believe we won't return to the form of earlier in the year, where we were putting away teams that we would've drawn with (or lost to) in years gone by. This will probably need Pards to re-evaluate a few things in his tactics/lineups, but I'm willing to put faith in him that he will steer us in the right direction. I'm only ready to freak out if we start next season playing poorly and find ourselves in the bottom half at Christmas.

 

So in conclusion, shush (for now). I'm scared

 

Agree with that.

[Dave]

Shit, pushed Hawk's megapost onto the last page. Sorry.

 

Here it is.

 

A well thought-out post HawK and you obviously have a lot of experience following the club, but I can't agree with your assessment really.

 

We have a squad that has some very good, some good and some terrible players. Pardew has managed that squad to a very respectable league position that was beyond most people's expectations at the start of the season. He took over from a popular manager at a 'crisis club' and he's steered a course through it all.

 

Whether or not the default position of our players is higher or lower than the current league position depends on so many factors that it's almost impossible to argue either way. Everyone who finishes in any league position does so because someone underperforms or overperforms, or their rivals collect slightly more or less points than expected. 

 

One of the factors of success or failure is the manager. If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit.

 

It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see.

 

Cheers, and no you haven't done a Ronaldo I think I was entitled to one snipe in that post lol. This isn't a reply to you directly as such, I've read over the comments of quite a few.

 

It does all come down to a matter of opinion, and that's the magic that will either divide or unite fans, sack or back a manager or make or break a player. Anyone is welcome to disagree with comparative squad strength, as it is opinion-based, but not without a sound grounding in the facts though. We've rarely had such international pedigree throughout our team, but I would highlight in particular the use of our 2 defensive midfielders, Cabaye and Tiote. The tactical naivety that I was alluding to was essentially that Pardew was playing for the second ball* for most of the game, assuming our midfield pairing would mop them up time and time again, regardless of how our front 2 coped with it. A sound strategy - if you don't also instruct them both to sit practically 5 yards in front of Williamson and Coloccini - except the Sunderland players were wise to this and the huge gap between our front 2 and our midfield 2 was always filled with red and white shirts every time Krul punted it upfield. It's something remedied by a very quick touchline shout to your nearest player to feed on, 'Cabaye, push up on the long balls to get the second ball'.

 

Every manager has qualities, such as those I highlighted earlier with Pardew, but the key, key area that a good/top manager will have, is the footballing acumen/nous to change and adapt to your opposition each game and to be able to fix things when they are no longer working. Even when we were against 10 men, both our fullbacks refused to get forward and support the attack. It's a key thing in today's 4-4-2, with a strong midfield partnership, in possession you should be aiming to get your fullbacks moving forward in line with the ball while your centrebacks sit deep, and Pardew really hasn't cottoned on to this.

 

But bringing the above to a close, Yohan Cabaye is a player who plays at the centre of a French team that has just beaten Germany 2-1 in Germany, a team that the best of the English can't hope to touch right now. We all know how good Tiote is. I can't see beyond poor tactical setup as to why these 2 are not absolutely dominating games even when against 4-5-1. Coloccini has been rightfully lauded as one of the best centre backs in the league, and already Krul is up there as a good keeper, although there aren't too many good keepers around right now. Demba Ba has been here a year and proven his class, Cisse yet to prove so but the signs are there for all to see that he can be successful.

 

We move on to players like Jonas, who until recently was a regular with Argentina, who's ability to retain the ball and hold up play is one of the reasons we were able to survive the second part of last season after Andy Carroll left. Hatem Ben Arfa has been described by French players as one of the most gifted players of his generation. Santon, although learning, has more experience than people give him credit for. He was able to keep CRonaldo in his pocket when he played for Inter in the Champions League.

 

Every team has their Taylors', their Simpsons and their Williamsons, but the difference between them and us is the ability of the manager to at least get them playing in the right manner and to accentuate the strengths of our best players, not refuse to play them due to a lack of tactical knowledge on how to do so. Because our recent history has been so dire, it's easy to be blinded to the very poor tactics by the league position, I can understand that, and I can understand an attitude of 'Ok, lets finish this up and push on next year'. But what I don't understand is how people can praise Pardew so highly for how 'he' has achieved this, I think it's mostly down to the quality of the players at his disposal and the outstanding work of Graham Carr to ensure our recruits don't even seem to need to gel.

 

I have to agree that we're doing OK now, in terms of results. But with the evidence on display with our performances, it's hard to see how a manager of Alan Pardew's ilk is going to get us any further than we are. I mentioned a false ceiling before, and he's the man holding it up right now.

 

* Just realised some may not get what I meant by second ball - It is what is referred to often as when the ball is hoofed upfield (first ball), the resulting header/layoff/knock down of that hoofball is called the second ball. I think Graham Taylor coined it, he invented the long ball after all lol.

[mrmojorisin75]

As a fan of 22 years I can very confidently say that Hatem Ben Arfa is one of the most confident and technically skilled players we've ever had in my time, and I would humbly suggest that others who have seen us for longer would agree also, as prior to when I started watching us we weren't exactly in the best of shape until a lot further back. How a football manager cannot accommodate his best player is at the least troubling at any level, but how a Premier League Manager cannot accommodate his best player is shocking. Rewind to Bellamy under Souness, arguably our best player at the time.

 

been saying variations of this for ages like, bang on the money

 

i would say at this point, in his favour, he's perhaps not beyond redemption yet and i'm really hoping sunday was a turning point for him...i'm not massively hopeful, but you never know

 

 

[Beren]

hate when that happens.

[HawK]

Perhaps I should just stop writing 'megaposts'

 

Edit: Just realised I should probably change the avatar now, appears he's spent a lot of it

[Dave]

Perhaps I should just stop writing 'megaposts'

 

Absolutely not, especially if they're well written.

[Mick]

 

 

Cheers, and no you haven't done a Ronaldo I think I was entitled to one snipe in that post lol. This isn't a reply to you directly as such, I've read over the comments of quite a few.

 

It does all come down to a matter of opinion, and that's the magic that will either divide or unite fans, sack or back a manager or make or break a player. Anyone is welcome to disagree with comparative squad strength, as it is opinion-based, but not without a sound grounding in the facts though. We've rarely had such international pedigree throughout our team, but I would highlight in particular the use of our 2 defensive midfielders, Cabaye and Tiote. The tactical naivety that I was alluding to was essentially that Pardew was playing for the second ball* for most of the game, assuming our midfield pairing would mop them up time and time again, regardless of how our front 2 coped with it. A sound strategy - if you don't also instruct them both to sit practically 5 yards in front of Williamson and Coloccini - except the Sunderland players were wise to this and the huge gap between our front 2 and our midfield 2 was always filled with red and white shirts every time Krul punted it upfield. It's something remedied by a very quick touchline shout to your nearest player to feed on, 'Cabaye, push up on the long balls to get the second ball'.

 

Every manager has qualities, such as those I highlighted earlier with Pardew, but the key, key area that a good/top manager will have, is the footballing acumen/nous to change and adapt to your opposition each game and to be able to fix things when they are no longer working. Even when we were against 10 men, both our fullbacks refused to get forward and support the attack. It's a key thing in today's 4-4-2, with a strong midfield partnership, in possession you should be aiming to get your fullbacks moving forward in line with the ball while your centrebacks sit deep, and Pardew really hasn't cottoned on to this.

 

But bringing the above to a close, Yohan Cabaye is a player who plays at the centre of a French team that has just beaten Germany 2-1 in Germany, a team that the best of the English can't hope to touch right now. We all know how good Tiote is. I can't see beyond poor tactical setup as to why these 2 are not absolutely dominating games even when against 4-5-1. Coloccini has been rightfully lauded as one of the best centre backs in the league, and already Krul is up there as a good keeper, although there aren't too many good keepers around right now. Demba Ba has been here a year and proven his class, Cisse yet to prove so but the signs are there for all to see that he can be successful.

 

We move on to players like Jonas, who until recently was a regular with Argentina, who's ability to retain the ball and hold up play is one of the reasons we were able to survive the second part of last season after Andy Carroll left. Hatem Ben Arfa has been described by French players as one of the most gifted players of his generation. Santon, although learning, has more experience than people give him credit for. He was able to keep CRonaldo in his pocket when he played for Inter in the Champions League.

 

Every team has their Taylors', their Simpsons and their Williamsons, but the difference between them and us is the ability of the manager to at least get them playing in the right manner and to accentuate the strengths of our best players, not refuse to play them due to a lack of tactical knowledge on how to do so. Because our recent history has been so dire, it's easy to be blinded to the very poor tactics by the league position, I can understand that, and I can understand an attitude of 'Ok, lets finish this up and push on next year'. But what I don't understand is how people can praise Pardew so highly for how 'he' has achieved this, I think it's mostly down to the quality of the players at his disposal and the outstanding work of Graham Carr to ensure our recruits don't even seem to need to gel.

 

I have to agree that we're doing OK now, in terms of results. But with the evidence on display with our performances, it's hard to see how a manager of Alan Pardew's ilk is going to get us any further than we are. I mentioned a false ceiling before, and he's the man holding it up right now.

 

* Just realised some may not get what I meant by second ball - It is what is referred to often as when the ball is hoofed upfield (first ball), the resulting header/layoff/knock down of that hoofball is called the second ball. I think Graham Taylor coined it, he invented the long ball after all lol.

 

I'm not reading all that tonight. 

[The Prophet]

I've been meaning to respond to this. You raise some very valid arguments, if I've missed any of them apologies:

 

I agree with you that Pardew is limited. With respect to the oft-touted 'meticulous pre-match preparation', the squad have on numerous occasions been quoted as being pleased with his organisational skills, and whilst I find that very commendable, it's actually quite incriminating too. For all his planning and research, he has been unable to assert his authority over teams, highlight their weaknesses or emphasise our strengths. We've won (where we have won) mostly by nicked goals and without controlling play for more than twenty minutes per game. This suggests to me that despite his laudable organisational skills, he is for the most part unable to apply anything he learns and prise performances out of what are (for me) undeniably talented resources.

 

We have, for most of the season, become difficult to turn over. Most of that was early season though if we're honest. Since that Man City match, I wouldn't call it "difficult to turn over" so much as quite lucky frankly. As usual, I will emphasise that good defending/keeping isn't luck, but when the opposition dictate the tempo and create more clear cut chances on a regular basis - I certainly don't think 'luck' doesn't play a part. That's just me, and I know it's a bit of a woolly argument - but games at Ewood, Molineux, OT, Anfield, Loftus Road and arguably others have been occasions where we've got more than our performance deserved - and but for better opposition finishing (as opposed to anything we did correctly) could easily have run away from us into Spurs (a) and Fulham (a) horror shows. I don't call that being 'difficult to turn over' although I would understand, if not agree, with the opposing viewpoint.

 

Given the absence of key members of our side in recent outings, I feel it is slightly harsh to include fixtures such as Blackburn and QPR in this argument, but at times this season it is true we have failed to exert our dominance over opposition sides. This is a pitty given the strength of our side lies in the spine, in particular our failure to utilise Cabaye's talents in the final third have to count as a strike against Pardew. This isn't to say he hasn't developed any strengths at all. He has a very average defense looking organised and capable of keeping clean sheets, something we've previously struggled with. He has limited players such as Simpson, Perch, Taylor, Guthrie and Best looking competent at Premier League level while he has the entire team working hard off the ball. These are strengths that are very simple to overlook but have contributed to our success this season. David Moyes instilled all these qualities into his early Everon sides and they very quickly reaped the rewards.

 

I think these qualities along with the ability of our core group of players have helped in making us a very difficult side to beat this season and while we have rode our luck at times, it certainly isn't a coincidence we keep grinding out results. It's also true we've been somewhat less solid since the injury to Taylor, but results such as those at Norwich (Colo and Tiote) and Spurs (Tiote and Cabaye) also resulted due to the absence of a two or three key players as opposed to just the one. Other scorelines such as those at Fulham have however manifested due to poor tactics but these have on the whole been rare.

 

You can point to that one match, and not many others I'd wager. Even I feel rather harsh saying a broken clock is right twice a day, but it does feel rather apt here given the weight of supporting evidence in the opposing column! The reason I called him an idiot (other than post-match anger!) is because of long-term issues which have not been sufficiently rectified or even addressed. Among these include his ability to change things/react during 90 minutes, his proclivity to wait until things break before he changes anything (cf. Chelsea at home), his persistence with Obertan until he got injured (he might still be starting if he hadn't been ) and top-of-the-tree of my worries... the dogshit football we play 80% of the time. Even against weak opposition.

 

Then there's how we cede momentum when we're on top. Wolves (h) was the first time we've been punished notably for it - but many, many people have been bleating on about the risks he has been running since the very first games in the season (Wolves (a), Everton (h) among others).

 

These are examples off the top of my head - I worry how many 'warning games' I could dig out if I did any considered research.

 

These are all long-term issues which seem to go over the top of his head. This strikes me as a much better gauge of his abilities than isolated matches. I try to look at progression and development. At the start of the season, I remember saying I'd be interested to see how he learns and adapts.. and that there's room for improvement for both the team and the manager. He hasn't shown much improvement, if I'm honest. If he'd shown even medium-sized strides in the right direction I'd be edified that the work-in-progress is a worthwhile exercise. I know great teams don't happen overnight and there is great merit in having tenures the length of Wenger, Ferguson etc... but not if you've backed Steve Bruce, McLeish.

 

Patience with a manager, in and of itself, doesn't guarantee any decent yield for your time! I'm not saying Pardew is as bad as them, but I hope you see what I mean. It's now March, and Pardew is still alienating our best creative player while we continue to hoof from Krul to Cisse for a solid 45 minutes. That's daft in my book. We had to hit our season nadir today at half-time before he brought on HBA. As I said, that's desperation - not growth.

 

 

The two key criticisms I've had of Pardew are the failure to play Ben Arfa and the inability to use Cabaye correctly. These have been long term problems that undeniably need ironing out, however they're hardly enough for me to claim Pardew has done below-par or even an average job. On the contrary, there are numerous examples of defined plans against certain opposition. Against Man United we doubled up on Rooney while simultaneously playing a high line in order to counter the threat of Hernandez, against Villa (away) we persisted in attempting to exploit the lack of Villa's pace in full back by getting the ball out wide as soon as possible, while more recently at Fulham our attempts to double up on both Murphy and Dempsey forced Jol to successfully change his formation (I'm talking about the initial plan as opposed to the poor response or lack of in changing it).

 

Of course the issue appearing to cause most annoyance amongst fans at the moment is the football we've played. Recently it hasn't been pretty, until the second half of the mackem game we hadn't played particularly well since our first half at the Cottage. Of course the absence of key players is an issue but our football has generally been a mixed bag all season. We've gone from the very good (Mancs home, Villa away) to the average (Wigan home, Swansea home) to the damn right awful (Liverpool away, Wolves home). Our worst football seems to come when sides come at us and we go into contain mode. To cut a long story short we back off leaving the forwards isolated, with such a large gap between the midfield and the strikers our back line lump it forward at every opportunity. I think Pardew feels the need to do this due to weaknesses in the back line, particularly in full back (his obsession with hard working wingers supports this). While I don't personally with it I do understand it and as such I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until we've acquired a couple of more quality personnel in the back line.

 

I also think another area hugely exaggerated as a weakness are Pardew's substitutions. They aren't always great but they aren't partiucalrly woeful either. Numerous times he's brought on Perch or Obertan to good effect. In our short Leage Cup run he won us games with a series of decent substitutions. He rarely gets it wrong and if there is a criticism of his changes it's that he leaves it too late on occasion.

 

I'll say it again I believe Pardew is an average manager but there's been more than enough progress and improvement this season for me to feel cautiously optimistic about the rest of the campaign as well as the next.

 

For the above reasons, I don't think I am being especially harsh. Maybe I'm playing up to the 'delusional Mag' but I'm willing to run that gauntlet. In terms of personnel, even accounting for our poor squad depth, we are top seven minimum IMO (on the strength of our first-team core/relatively injury-free season). Even taking into account that we only have 3 CBs. Draw what conclusions you will over the strength of the league, but I do think that is true for 2011/12. As ever, I sincerely hope he improves because it seems for better or worse he'll be here for a while.

 

I believe a big difference in our opinions is that you have a lot more faith in the quality of our squad than I do. In my view, we have a core of very good players (Krul, Colo, Tiote, Cabate, Ba), some who are still finding their way (Santon and Cisse) and the rest are average to dross. Frequently we've had to call on Perch, Taylor or Best who are lower Premier League standard at best. While it's entirely realistic we should be rising above the mid-table scramble without anything particularly special going on at the helm the fact we've pulled away with sides such as Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool (who have deeper, more quality squads) goes to show what a good job Pardew has done and although our football is very hit and miss there has been enough improvement this campaign for me to feel cautiously optimistic about our future under Pardew.

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit.

 

It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see.

 

There's something in this, position does make you greedy and objectively it would look ridiculous to almost all fans of other teams to see people in here saying they're not happy but that's what being a fan of your own club is about: Inspecting and analysing everything minutely and I think the scrutiny is worthy and has been for a while. You're right about us being greedy for good football but this team can play so much better than it has, confidence will help us but so will positive tactics and Pardew telling his players to go out there and really go hard at the opposition rather than waiting for counters, moving the ball slowly up the field and hoping that we can ping in an ok cross. We have the speed, skill and ball-players to move it around, get in behind people and really hurt defences.

 

Fair point, I do think there is potential for us to be better, mostly in terms of attacking intent and style of football.

 

I can just see why Pardew was reluctant to move away from an approach that had gained him so many points. Don't forget that he has gone most of the season with HBA injured and Ba his only decent striker. During that time he managed to collect a very encouraging number of points by making us hard to beat.

 

Hopefully now he has a fit HBA and Cisse he will try to develop the style of the team. But I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a bit of time and we don't actually see the change until next season fully. I do believe that Pardew and the staff would ideally like to play better football - all our signings suggest that.

[madras]

totally disagree with hawk's second ball theory, if only we had gone after the second ball, instead the middle 2 remained far too deep in order to stop the opposition in possession rather than pick up the second ball.

[Guest Dontooner]

If we were 16th he would be getting panned, now we're 6th he deserves credit.

 

It's only because we've achieved such a brilliant league position that we've suddenly raised our expectations about the style of football we want to see.

 

There's something in this, position does make you greedy and objectively it would look ridiculous to almost all fans of other teams to see people in here saying they're not happy but that's what being a fan of your own club is about: Inspecting and analysing everything minutely and I think the scrutiny is worthy and has been for a while. You're right about us being greedy for good football but this team can play so much better than it has, confidence will help us but so will positive tactics and Pardew telling his players to go out there and really go hard at the opposition rather than waiting for counters, moving the ball slowly up the field and hoping that we can ping in an ok cross. We have the speed, skill and ball-players to move it around, get in behind people and really hurt defences.

 

Fair point, I do think there is potential for us to be better, mostly in terms of attacking intent and style of football.

 

I can just see why Pardew was reluctant to move away from an approach that had gained him so many points. Don't forget that he has gone most of the season with HBA injured and Ba his only decent striker. During that time he managed to collect a very encouraging number of points by making us hard to beat.

 

Hopefully now he has a fit HBA and Cisse he will try to develop the style of the team. But I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a bit of time and we don't actually see the change until next season fully. I do believe that Pardew and the staff would ideally like to play better football - all our signings suggest that.

I think the point is how much better? or has Pardew peaked as a manager? or is he the one to lead us to be more consistent performances or results.

Another season will tell us perfectly what we want to know, lets just hope we finish with European qualification.

[oldtype]

The question we should be asking isn't necessarily "how much better would we be with someone else" but rather "would we even be in this position with someone else?"

 

Pardew isn't perfect but he has his strengths and most importantly, he's the right fit for the club. Sometimes fit is more important than ability.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Kevin Keegan is a tactically superior manager, but he was the wrong fit. Look how that turned out.

[Guest Dontooner]

We cant really assume how much better or worst if we had another manager since its an imaginary variable. However, we can start to have expectations of future performances and prepare for the next season. Basically, improving the performances on the pitch and the quality of the players in the summer.

 

I do however agree a good fit of a manager is very important, since he has hit it off with many of our fans and the management it seems. However, football is played on the pitch, base on the arguement, that most top european teams which ply their trade in the top 4-6 places in thier respective leagues, do currently play much better and measured football than us. I do hope we can look to improve the performances going into the future seasons.

[Hughesy]

What would people expect from Pardew next season if we get 6th place this season?

[HawK]

totally disagree with hawk's second ball theory, if only we had gone after the second ball, instead the middle 2 remained far too deep in order to stop the opposition in possession rather than pick up the second ball.

 

What? That's exactly what I said lol.

[High Five o]

What would people expect from Pardew next season if we get 6th place this season?

 

1st!

 

Seriously, if we get 6th this year, i hope we end up around the same place next year.

What i want to see next season is a positive development regarding our play.

If we get 6th, and we can dominate more games, play better football i am happy.

then we can build on that in the future.