Guest firetotheworks Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I'm quite confident that there will come a point when it's just accepted that he's the best there has ever been, in the same way as Michael Jordan. He still has a lot to achieve, but tbf he's 24 and has won everything other than the world cup with a team, won everything there is to win on a personal level, and is now breaking a fair few all-time records. Even if he doesn't do absolutely everything to make everyone unanimously agree that he's the best of all-time, I'll still argue that he is because I find it difficult to comprehend a player that is better than perfection. He can do absolutely everything at the ultimate level, but the difference between him and the other brilliant players I've seen is that he does it, without fail, every single week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Yeah, in the same way that players won more Championships than Jordan (Russell, for one), but Jordan redefined the game. I think Messi is currently redefining what we believe is spectacular in football. I don't think anybody has been able to do the things he's doing today every single match. The moments that make you gasp were moments that the greatest of players had but I don't think any of them had those moments so often that you became almost numb and expectant, and that's the realm that Messi is now exclusively in, imo. I watch him and know he's on another plane, and it's so blindingly obvious that it's the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 He is redefining what 'greatness' is. No great player in the past twenty years has been able to perform at his level consistently. I would argue that no one has ever performed at his level consistently. People might speak about peaks and that'd be a different argument. But for consistently brilliant with an amazing peak combined with the ability to dominate the biggest of matches, Messi is the ultimate player. I know people mention his inability to sparkle with Argentina, which is actually quite overrated given how he plays much deeper for them so he won't show up on the goalscoring sheet as often as he usually does (and which leads the casual fan to thinking that Messi underperformed) for Barca, but that's only a small facet of being 'great'. Felipao talked about maximizing the resources available. Well, that is only one facet available. If someone gives you shit and you somehow make something out of it, then bravo. But if someone gives you gold and you turn that into something even more spectacular then you deserve even more credit. Messi has turned an incredible group of players into an invincible, once-in-three-lifetimes team which has swept aside every single challenger that they've had for nigh on 4 years now. It's the greatest run in modern football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Players are faster, stronger and better now than they ever were. This is a fact. To dominate now, then, is harder than ever before. So what Messi is doing is unparalleled. Pele and Maradona can suck his balls because they can only dream of doing what he's doing now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Pele, or the poor mans 'Randy Horton' as he is more commonly known. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Players are faster, stronger and better now than they ever were. This is a fact. To dominate now, then, is harder than ever before. So what Messi is doing is unparalleled. Pele and Maradona can suck his balls because they can only dream of doing what he's doing now. Don't agree that players are better now than they used to be. Fitter and faster, yes, but more ability and intelligence? Not in my book, certainly not over the last 5 years anyway. The game's been going through a defensive slump in my opinion as it's tilted itself towards attacking. Just comparing the top defenders in the world right now, against 10 years ago and there's no competition for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 I think you have to take into consideration how the game is now to how it was in Pele's day and I conclude Messi is indeed the greatest ever footballer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NEEJ Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 It's a pointless argument if you ask me. Messi is far and away the best player of his generation, I think very few can deny that. Whether Pele/Maradona/Player X could perform to the levels they did in their era today is irrelevant. Different players for different eras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/01/21/1226250/052662-lionel-messi-amp-pele.jpg http://media.indiatimes.in/media/content/2011/Dec/diego-maradona1_1322823578_640x640.jpg http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01405/snf1126a---682_1405586a.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 http://www.lvmh.com/uploads/assets/Lvmh-news/Visuels/LVFootballers1.jpg http://static.ibnlive.in.com/ibnlive/pix/sitepix/03_2012/messi_pc_ap_630.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tyson Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Although unlikely, as a point of comparison it would be great to see Messi undertake a career diversion, by taking on a seemingly insurmountable challenge & moving to a football outpost. At league level, that's the big tick in Maradona's column. Maradona: Barcelona to Napoli Messi: Even if's a domestic move, Barcelona to Mallorca or club of similar stature and have them compete at the top-end of the table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Although unlikely, as a point of comparison it would be great to see Messi undertake a career diversion, by taking on a seemingly insurmountable challenge & moving to a football outpost. At league level, that's the big tick in Maradona's column. Maradona: Barcelona to Napoli Messi: Even if's a domestic move, Barcelona to Mallorca or club of similar stature and have them compete at the top-end of the table. My view of Messi remains unchanged. I'd like to see him perform in another team (preferably in another country) besides the mighty Barcelona. To be considered as the best of the best, a player has to lead an otherwise average/good team to excellence. Messi does not get to do that in Barcelona because although he is their main weapon, they are excellent even without him (i.e. their results would not have changed much if they replaced Messi say with another top striker). Anyway this thread is rather pointless. Those who believe that Messi is the best that ever was and will be will continue to believe so ad likewise those who thinks that he still has a bit more to prove. Don't see either side changing their mind myself included. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Just to off topic, i think the general standard of football is declining. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Although unlikely, as a point of comparison it would be great to see Messi undertake a career diversion, by taking on a seemingly insurmountable challenge & moving to a football outpost. At league level, that's the big tick in Maradona's column. Maradona: Barcelona to Napoli Messi: Even if's a domestic move, Barcelona to Mallorca or club of similar stature and have them compete at the top-end of the table. Messi does not get to do that in Barcelona because although he is their main weapon, they are excellent even without him (i.e. their results would not have changed much if they replaced Messi say with another top striker). I don't think that's true at all. Messi is so often the difference between a win and a draw or a loss it's unreal. It's quite often achieved by him doing something that no one else in the world could do as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 i don't think it's possible for one person to carry a team to anything anymore, be it a world cup, a strong domestic league or the champions league all ticks in the column to stop comparing him to people from the past really Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The must win WC is rubbish imo, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Puskas, Eusebio etc etc never won it why does Messi need to? he has already dominated the club scene for nearly half a decade and shows no sign of letting up. Plus Club level is a higher level than WC now imo and has been since the 80s. Also whats this rubbish about having to prove yourself outside your comfort zone? No one ever said Maldini had to leave Milan, Eusebio had to leave Benfica, Di Stefano had to leave Madrid etc etc. He's not there yet as far as iam concerned but he can get there if he keeps dominating at club level the way he has been in the last few years. I for one think its stupid how much hype is around winning a WC,a month long tournament that happens once every 4 years after playing around 50+ game season. European Cup/CL > World Cup, Always has been and always will be. Granted only ever seen footage of Maradona and Pele, as I'm not old enough to have seen them live. But going on raw ability, Messi is out of this world. Still stand by what I said ages ago in this thread though, comparing players over generations is difficult and I'm not that keen on doing it. Still, Messi probably is the best ever. Pele pffft Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The must win WC is rubbish imo, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Puskas, Eusebio etc etc never won it why does Messi need to? he has already dominated the club scene for nearly half a decade and shows no sign of letting up. Plus Club level is a higher level than WC now imo and has been since the 80s. Also whats this rubbish about having to prove yourself outside your comfort zone? No one ever said Maldini had to leave Milan, Eusebio had to leave Benfica, Di Stefano had to leave Madrid etc etc. He's not there yet as far as iam concerned but he can get there if he keeps dominating at club level the way he has been in the last few years. I for one think its stupid how much hype is around winning a WC,a month long tournament that happens once every 4 years after playing around 50+ game season. European Cup/CL > World Cup, Always has been and always will be. Granted only ever seen footage of Maradona and Pele, as I'm not old enough to have seen them live. But going on raw ability, Messi is out of this world. Still stand by what I said ages ago in this thread though, comparing players over generations is difficult and I'm not that keen on doing it. Still, Messi probably is the best ever. Pele pffft The need to win the world cup might be a bit exaggerated but for me the requirement to prove yourself in another league is fundamental to how I view Messi's achievements. You make a fair point about the likes of Maldini, Eusebio not leaving their respective clubs, but nobody is saying that they are the greatest player ever which is the contention for Messi. If it's all about being a great player, then clearly Messi has achieved that long ago and for that he does not need to prove himself outside Barcelona. But to be deemed better than the likes of Pele, Maradonna and even the likes of Zidane to a lesser extent, he needs to prove that he can still excel even without the best midfielders in the world playing behind him (at least Iniesta and Xavi) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Although unlikely, as a point of comparison it would be great to see Messi undertake a career diversion, by taking on a seemingly insurmountable challenge & moving to a football outpost. At league level, that's the big tick in Maradona's column. Maradona: Barcelona to Napoli Messi: Even if's a domestic move, Barcelona to Mallorca or club of similar stature and have them compete at the top-end of the table. Messi does not get to do that in Barcelona because although he is their main weapon, they are excellent even without him (i.e. their results would not have changed much if they replaced Messi say with another top striker). I don't think that's true at all. Messi is so often the difference between a win and a draw or a loss it's unreal. It's quite often achieved by him doing something that no one else in the world could do as well. It couldn't be more wrong. He's just proven again that he doesn't watch him play enough to even have an opinion on the subject. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Messi wont leave Barca so I guess we'll never know about the 'other league' business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 his utter domination of the champions league renders all of that largely irrelevant anyway imo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't buy the "needs to move clubs" stuff. Just watch him play football. He is the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't buy the "needs to move clubs" stuff. Just watch him play football. He is the best. It's rubbish imo, Maradona is the only one who could be argued play for a "lesser" team and even that is massive hyperbole imo.... The Napoli and Argentina sides that Maradona were apart of where miles better than people give them credit for, the way people talk you would think it was the equivalent of Messi going to Wigan and winning the PL and that was simply not the case Napoli and Argentina had some wonderful players outside of Maradona. Also agree with mojorisin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Don't buy the "needs to move clubs" stuff. Just watch him play football. He is the best. It's rubbish imo, Maradona is the only one who could be argued play for a "lesser" team and even that is massive hyperbole imo.... The Napoli and Argentina sides that Maradona were apart of where miles better than people give them credit for, the way people talk you would think it was the equivalent of Messi going to Wigan and winning the PL and that was simply not the case Napoli and Argentina had some wonderful players outside of Maradona. Also agree with mojorisin. Was going to say, I've been looking a bit into the Napoli side Maradona went to. People make them out to be some pub team, it appears they were rather good. I'm sure others could go into more detail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Yeh it was a decent Napoli team he played in - there was another player who was class but I've forgotten his name & can't be arsed to google it. It was the Argies he carried, Napoli to an extent but not so much different from Messi at Barca - if you took his goals away etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 He plays and stars in the Champions League. Meaning he plays against the very best teams across all of Europe. What difference would playing against the average and poor ones make? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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