Demba Ba (now retired)

[Ikon]

No wonder manager got blamed for everything.

 

Regarding Ba or who? If so, who else? Tea lady?

[Ronaldo]

You know fine well I agree with basically all apart from the last line. You simply can't apportion all blame to Pardew - especially when you don't know what's been communicated between the pair of them.

 

Pardew is the manager, how can anybody else be to blame for Pardew (the manager) picking Ba in a formation that doesn't suit us as a team?  I understand that we don't know what is said between the manager and player and don't really need to as we can judge the situation on what we actually see. 

 

I can understand why he wants to keep Ba happy but not at the expense of the team and that is what is actually happening.  Either Ba doesn't want to play left of a front 3 or Pardew doesn't want him to.  Only 1 person picks the team and only 1 person is to blame for it unless Pardew is being told what to do by somebody above him which we have no proof of so I'll stick to what we do know.

 

We don't know a thing about what the managers are told and haven't since the club was bought by that dreadful b******.

 

What we do know is what's happened in the past. Big players - our most important player, even - have been sold with Championship crap like Ameobi and Lovenkrands expected to fill the void like folded-up dirty napkins under a table leg. You can understand the manager wanting to try to do everything he possibly can to keep the likes of Ba happy on a personal level, especially when the striking options beyond the starting Xl are laughably even more limited after a 5th place finish than when we'd just been promoted.

 

Let's say Ba is refusing to play out wide, Pardew puts him out there and he demands to be sold in Jan. January comes and he leaves the club, leaving us with an out of form Cisse as the only proven goalscorer in the entire sodding squad. We'd sink like a stone and you'd be there demanding Pardew gets sacked with every predictable, non-scoring defeat.

 

Pardew's made mistakes this season and personally I'm not at all sure he's cable of rectifying them in the long-term, but one thing is for sure: he just can't win with people like you. Disguise it all you want, but you're comfortable pointing all the blame in his direction when it's blatantly obvious he's only a symptom of a bigger problem, struggling against his master to make something out of nothing, much like Hughton was.

[Ikon]

To make something out of nothing?  I think we all agree that he hasn't been backed this summer with new arrivals, but that's only one of the problems.

 

We've been shit all season, even before all the injuries, so i wouldn't say he's had to make "something out of nothing"

[Ronaldo]

What's Pardew's net spend since taking over a recently promoted club sitting 12th in the league? His tactics may be dreadful, but they don't tell half the story.

[Ikon]

Around £0 i would guess, probably more income than outlays i'd think.

[Jack Flash]

There are other formations than 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 though. One of our strikers doesn't have to be on the wing to win games, despite what we all read constantly on here.

 

Can't believe we're in a situation where having TWO 20 goal a season strikers is a burden ffs. Absolutely insane that this is considered a valid excuse to defend the manager. I'd love to know what an attack minded manager would do with them.

[Mick]

 

 

We don't know a thing about what the managers are told and haven't since the club was bought by that dreadful b******.

 

What we do know is what's happened in the past. Big players - our most important player, even - have been sold with Championship crap like Ameobi and Lovenkrands expected to fill the void like folded-up dirty napkins under a table leg. You can understand the manager wanting to try to do everything he possibly can to keep the likes of Ba happy on a personal level, especially when the striking options beyond the starting Xl are laughably even more limited after a 5th place finish than when we'd just been promoted.

 

Let's say Ba is refusing to play out wide, Pardew puts him out there and he demands to be sold in Jan. January comes and he leaves the club, leaving us with an out of form Cisse as the only proven goalscorer in the entire sodding squad. We'd sink like a stone and you'd be there demanding Pardew gets sacked with every predictable, non-scoring defeat.

 

Pardew's made mistakes this season and personally I'm not at all sure he's cable of rectifying them in the long-term, but one thing is for sure: he just can't win with people like you. Disguise it all you want, but you're comfortable pointing all the blame in his direction when it's blatantly obvious he's only a symptom of a bigger problem, struggling against his master to make something out of nothing, much like Hughton was.

 

Are our forwards really weaker?  That’s debatable considering Best hasn’t played a competitive game since he left us because unsurprisingly, he’s injured.  We do need more up front but losing Best isn’t the end of the world and with hindsight, was a good move even though we should have replaced him.  Pardew isn’t faultless with that though as he was quite happy going into the season with what we’ve got and claiming that we were good enough to challenge for the Champions League, or words to that effect.

 

You're using a hypothetical scenario against an actual situation.  The manager shouldn’t do everything possible to keep Ba happy if it’s to the detriment of the team.  Ba is refusing to sign a new contract so could be away in January anyway, what are we then left with?  I’ll tell you what we’ll be left with.  We’ll be left with a team that is struggling around the bottom of the league and that will be partly due to allowing a player to dictate where he does or doesn’t play, or because the manager doesn't want to play him in that position.

 

People like me have been supporting the club for decades, and I’ve been through 4 relegations, the first one I can remember was the season after we’d finished 5th and we were relegated because we gave the wrong manager too long to try and put something right that he was incapable of doing.

 

I’ve been quite happy to apportion some of the blame away from Pardew but you can’t get away from him being the manager of a team which is massively underperforming.  If you want to blame others for that then fine, you’re wrong.

 

Our manager is a part of the recruitment process which has partially failed us.  Our manager is responsible for training the players.  Our manager is responsible for motivating the players.  Our manager is responsible for picking the team.  Our manager is responsible for choosing the tactics for each and every game.  Our manager is responsible for choosing the formation for each game.

 

Have I missed anything out or failed to mention who else is responsible for anything mentioned above?

[Mick]

There are other formations than 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 though. One of our strikers doesn't have to be on the wing to win games, despite what we all read constantly on here.

 

Can't believe we're in a situation where having TWO 20 goal a season strikers is a burden ffs. Absolutely insane that this is considered a valid excuse to defend the manager. I'd love to know what an attack minded manager would do with them.

 

You know what that type of manager would do, he'd attack and get the most out of his assets.

[Ronaldo]

You failed to mention how you'd react as a fan to the hypothetical scenario I presented you with. Nor have you said what you'd do in Pardew's position should our worst fears about Ba's self-preserving stipulations be a reality - which they are in all likelyhood.

 

[Ronaldo]

There are other formations than 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 though. One of our strikers doesn't have to be on the wing to win games, despite what we all read constantly on here.

 

Can't believe we're in a situation where having TWO 20 goal a season strikers is a burden ffs. Absolutely insane that this is considered a valid excuse to defend the manager. I'd love to know what an attack minded manager would do with them.

 

You know what that type of manager would do, he'd attack and get the most out of his assets.

 

Which Pardew did last season, by the way.

[Zero]

i sincerely suggest u to support another team, Mick. I can't see any manager can work out well enough for you under Ashley, and I can't see Ashley selling the club in the short term. Probably what you should do is to restart the Ashley out campaign and start riot outside the stadium. Thata probably helps to get what u want,more likely then hoping Ashley to get the Right man.

[Ikon]

Facepalm!

[Mick]

You failed to mention how you'd react as a fan to the hypothetical scenario I presented you with. Nor have you said what you'd do in Pardew's position should our worst fears about Ba's self-preserving stipulations be a reality - which they are in all likelyhood.

 

 

As a fan I'm convinced that Ba would be happy playing left of centre as long as he was getting goals and hogging the limelight.  He loves being the star player and loves getting goals and I don't have a problem with that because most forwards are the same in that respect.

 

Goals bring him confidence and I don’t think for one minute that it would bother him where he was getting them from, as long as he was getting them, something which didn't happen last season after he was moved.

 

As for what I would do in Pardew’s position, I wouldn’t let a player dictate to me where he did or didn’t play, if that is what’s happening.  I’ve managed people for many years and don’t let people tell me what they are or aren’t going to do because if one person can do it then they all can.

 

If you give one person preferential treatment is usually pisses off others and affects the performance of others.  Is Cisse pissed off because he’s been moved away from a position which he made a success of last season?  My guess is that he probably is and it’s preventing him from performing to the best of his ability. 

 

Keeping one player happy looks to be causing another player to underperform, the other player is just as good at doing his job as Ba is but he doesn’t moan about it.  So in that case keeping Ba happy is being cancelled out by pissing off Cisse.

 

[Zero]

I am not being sarcastic, fyi.  Some people like me accepted the cuurent environment under Ashley and gave Pardew the benefit of the doubt for handling the situation hand-tied. Some people like you refuse to accept because traditionally what you said is right the manager should take responsibility for those decisions. The point is nowadays the manager job is becoming ridiculously hard to do, and nearly all managers failed to keep up the good work (if there is) initially and being sacked 2-3 years later. I can't think of any managers that could guarantee a better result under Ashley given the restrictions, which makes the job even harder to work.

[Mick]

 

 

Which Pardew did last season, by the way.

 

I agree, we're not talking about last season though.  I know we did well last season in finishing 5th and that can never be taken away from Pardew but it's not doing anything for us this season.  Nobody can live forever because of what they've done in the past and while that might not be fair, it's the way it is.

 

We simply can't look back and give people in a competitive sport too long, the costs are too high.

 

I really do hope that he can turn things around because it will be better for all of us but I'm not sure that he can.

[Mick]

i sincerely suggest u to support another team, Mick. I can't see any manager can work out well enough for you under Ashley, and I can't see Ashley selling the club in the short term. Probably what you should do is to restart the Ashley out campaign and start riot outside the stadium. Thata probably helps to get what u want,more likely then hoping Ashley to get the Right man.

 

 

I can't suggest to you what I would like to, so we'll leave it at that.

[Ronaldo]

You failed to mention how you'd react as a fan to the hypothetical scenario I presented you with. Nor have you said what you'd do in Pardew's position should our worst fears about Ba's self-preserving stipulations be a reality - which they are in all likelyhood.

 

 

As a fan I'm convinced that Ba would be happy playing left of centre as long as he was getting goals and hogging the limelight.  He loves being the star player and loves getting goals and I don't have a problem with that because most forwards are the same in that respect.

 

Goals bring him confidence and I don’t think for one minute that it would bother him where he was getting them from, as long as he was getting them, something which didn't happen last season after he was moved.

 

As for what I would do in Pardew’s position, I wouldn’t let a player dictate to me where he did or didn’t play, if that is what’s happening.  I’ve managed people for many years and don’t let people tell me what they are or aren’t going to do because if one person can do it then they all can.

 

If you give one person preferential treatment is usually pisses off others and affects the performance of others.  Is Cisse p*ssed off because he’s been moved away from a position which he made a success of last season?  My guess is that he probably is and it’s preventing him from performing to the best of his ability. 

 

Keeping one player happy looks to be causing another player to underperform, the other player is just as good at doing his job as Ba is but he doesn’t moan about it.  So in that case keeping Ba happy is being cancelled out by pissing off Cisse.

 

 

Once again failing to explicitly say what you'd actually do with the team in Pardew's situation if Ba had made such threats. I'm out.

[Mick]

 

 

Once again failing to explicitly say what you'd actually do with the team in Pardew's situation if Ba had made such threats. I'm out.

 

I thought that I'd made is obvious, I'd play him on the left of a front 3 not that I’d want our front 3 to be too rigid in where they play.  I certainly wouldn’t have him playing in a front 2 and trying to hit balls to him from the back which has been the story of our season so far.

 

If I was going to play a front 2 I’d have made sure that we had wingers capable of getting past defenders and putting balls into the box and giving them something to feed off.

[Hhtoon]

I'm not sure about this whole Ba throwing a strop about playing left of a 4-3-3.

Don't get me wrong, it is possible/likely and maybe during the summer he said that if he wasn't given chances in the middle he would re-evaluate his position. But surely Pardew, after such a s*** run, could have put his arm round him and said "Dembs, look how s*** we are. Could we just have a few games trying the 4-3-3 from the end of last season? It's not your fault, it's the other players and injuries and I would really appreciate it. Wouldn't you rather be winning games?"

 

Players must have a desire to win or else they wouldn't make it so I fail to believe that Ba wouldn't agree to that. If he did refuse then get rid. More worryingly is that Pards isn't asking.

[The College Dropout]

Cisse has played a fair bit in the middle this year. s***.

 

Yes he has, as part of a 4-4-2, with a right footer on the left wing and a left footer on the right wing so they can't cross properly to him and the rest of the team just hoofing the ball up front. Baffled as to what you think that proves.

 

He needs to play in the middle of a 4-3-3, or in a 4-4-2 with the wingers on the correct wings. Sadly we lack the personnel to do the latter, and the manager lacks the balls to do the former.

 

Honestly, have you ever heard of a striker that can't play in a 4-4-2? Seriously?

 

It's the same formation Ba has scored 10 goals in. Ba could do with some crosses too.

 

Yes the service has been poor for Cisse (and Ba) but he HAS had chances. I just want people to admit Cisse has legitimately been poor and some of the blame lays with the player himself.

 

He has the same amount of goals as Hatem & Cabaye. It's not good enough.

 

Being offside all the time is nobody's fault but his own. The fact he's probably been offside more than any other player shows he's been in goal scoring positions and messed it up.

[SLK]

Cisse has played a fair bit in the middle this year. s***.

 

Yes he has, as part of a 4-4-2, with a right footer on the left wing and a left footer on the right wing so they can't cross properly to him and the rest of the team just hoofing the ball up front. Baffled as to what you think that proves.

 

He needs to play in the middle of a 4-3-3, or in a 4-4-2 with the wingers on the correct wings. Sadly we lack the personnel to do the latter, and the manager lacks the balls to do the former.

 

Honestly, have you ever heard of a striker that can't play in a 4-4-2? Seriously?

 

It's the same formation Ba has scored 10 goals in. Ba could do with some crosses too.

 

Yes the service has been poor for Cisse (and Ba) but he HAS had chances. I just want people to admit Cisse has legitimately been poor and some of the blame lays with the player himself.

 

He has the same amount of goals as Hatem & Cabaye. It's not good enough.

 

Being offside all the time is nobody's fault but his own. The fact he's probably been offside more than any other player shows he's been in goal scoring positions and messed it up.

Not always his fault for being off side. It can also be caused by not anticipating the striker's run quickly and releasing the ball too late where the strike is now in an offside position. This is exactly what happened to Cisse at Stoke when he made a great run but Tiote or whoever he was took seconds longer than they should have before they released the ball which was too late and obviously very frustrating for Cisse.

[Dave]

There are other formations than 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 though. One of our strikers doesn't have to be on the wing to win games, despite what we all read constantly on here.

 

Can't believe we're in a situation where having TWO 20 goal a season strikers is a burden ffs. Absolutely insane that this is considered a valid excuse to defend the manager. I'd love to know what an attack minded manager would do with them.

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

There are other formations than 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 though. One of our strikers doesn't have to be on the wing to win games, despite what we all read constantly on here.

 

Can't believe we're in a situation where having TWO 20 goal a season strikers is a burden ffs. Absolutely insane that this is considered a valid excuse to defend the manager. I'd love to know what an attack minded manager would do with them.

 

 

Very true, but getting the best out of them both is a problem nonetheless. In a 4-4-2 they both seem to occupy exactly the same position, in a 4-3-3 Cisse is useless if wide.

 

Having them is a massive benefit to us, but it's pointless to deny that getting the best out of them is a bit of a dilemma.

[Dave]

The manager's been working with them both for nearly a year, why do they still occupy the same space in his preferred formation?

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

The manager's been working with them both for nearly a year, why do they still occupy the same space in his preferred formation?

 

 

Good question, I don't know. I doubt he's telling them to go for the same ball like.