Matt Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 What will be "blown open" by player trading ? Aren't the player trading bits just a segment of the overall accounts, ie the club could make massive overall profit but massive losses on player trading alone ? Clubs always quote it seperately, though. Dekka was at pains to say how we made a small loss last year- but this was the operating loss and won't take account of the fact the club booked over £30m for a player who was probably on the books for a million tops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest michaelfoster Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 how much is the debt we owe Ashley these days, £111m or something? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 i wonder how much those poor, little far east asians have been rewarded for their hard work? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Mag Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 how much is the debt we owe Ashley these days, £111m or something? and 99p to be precise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 how much is the debt we owe Ashley these days, £111m or something? and 99p to be precise. Really wish we hadn't bought that Sports Direct mug off him... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 I thought operating profits/losses were everything together for that year? Player trading was just a part of it, maybe I'm wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 What will be "blown open" by player trading ? Aren't the player trading bits just a segment of the overall accounts, ie the club could make massive overall profit but massive losses on player trading alone ? Clubs always quote it seperately, though. Dekka was at pains to say how we made a small loss last year- but this was the operating loss and won't take account of the fact the club booked over £30m for a player who was probably on the books for a million tops. Carroll was on the books at zero i wonder how much those poor, little far east asians have been rewarded for their hard work? Sports direct don't make anything, so probably nothing :'( I thought operating profits/losses were everything together for that year? Player trading was just a part of it, maybe I'm wrong. Different things, Operating profit is everything excluding player purchases (shown as the ammortisation value over a period of years) and sales, and probably interest. All clubs show accounts this way, infact all companies show operating and non operating income. Think of it as day to day costs and income vs events that are one off in nature (in general of course) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes for purely accounting purposes but surely they need to be put together to Give an indication of available funds etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes for purely accounting purposes but surely they need to be put together to Give an indication of available funds etc. Depends, If you want to know how much money you have to spend then yes, but if you want to see how the club funds itself then no. You don't really want a club to show a small profit only because they sold a player for £35 million, it masks the fact that next year you have a big £30 million plus hole to fund by selling more players Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes for purely accounting purposes but surely they need to be put together to Give an indication of available funds etc. Depends, If you want to know how much money you have to spend then yes, but if you want to see how the club funds itself then no. You don't really want a club to show a small profit only because they sold a player for £35 million, it masks the fact that next year you have a big £30 million plus hole to fund by selling more players kind of what i was getting at, amortisation skewes the whole picture so pure cash flow is a better guide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes for purely accounting purposes but surely they need to be put together to Give an indication of available funds etc. Depends, If you want to know how much money you have to spend then yes, but if you want to see how the club funds itself then no. You don't really want a club to show a small profit only because they sold a player for £35 million, it masks the fact that next year you have a big £30 million plus hole to fund by selling more players kind of what i was getting at, amortisation skewes the whole picture so pure cash flow is a better guide. hmm, in my view you really need to look at both together, and in a medium term they will say the same story anyway. Op Profit is important for the reasons I outlined above - you need to know how well the club can sustain itself day to day. But total profit/loss is also important as it shows how well the club uses these op profits to build a better squad. Ammortisation is important to seeing how the club is run so I wouldn't be relying on cashflow to show this - you really need to look at everything in the accounts to get a true(ish) picture of things Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes for purely accounting purposes but surely they need to be put together to Give an indication of available funds etc. Depends, If you want to know how much money you have to spend then yes, but if you want to see how the club funds itself then no. You don't really want a club to show a small profit only because they sold a player for £35 million, it masks the fact that next year you have a big £30 million plus hole to fund by selling more players kind of what i was getting at, amortisation skewes the whole picture so pure cash flow is a better guide. hmm, in my view you really need to look at both together, and in a medium term they will say the same story anyway. Op Profit is important for the reasons I outlined above - you need to know how well the club can sustain itself day to day. But total profit/loss is also important as it shows how well the club uses these op profits to build a better squad. Ammortisation is important to seeing how the club is run so I wouldn't be relying on cashflow to show this - you really need to look at everything in the accounts to get a true(ish) picture of things again kind of what i was getting at. the original thing i took umption at was the idea that player trading would "blow apart" something which i can't really see. re amortisation, with the club, i presume doing all it's business upfront, does amortisation come into it as much especially with it being much more a haphazard and subjective variable than in the normal business world (ie for accounting for the buying of plant machinery) ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Yes for purely accounting purposes but surely they need to be put together to Give an indication of available funds etc. Depends, If you want to know how much money you have to spend then yes, but if you want to see how the club funds itself then no. You don't really want a club to show a small profit only because they sold a player for £35 million, it masks the fact that next year you have a big £30 million plus hole to fund by selling more players kind of what i was getting at, amortisation skewes the whole picture so pure cash flow is a better guide. hmm, in my view you really need to look at both together, and in a medium term they will say the same story anyway. Op Profit is important for the reasons I outlined above - you need to know how well the club can sustain itself day to day. But total profit/loss is also important as it shows how well the club uses these op profits to build a better squad. Ammortisation is important to seeing how the club is run so I wouldn't be relying on cashflow to show this - you really need to look at everything in the accounts to get a true(ish) picture of things again kind of what i was getting at. the original thing i took umption at was the idea that player trading would "blow apart" something which i can't really see. re amortisation, with the club, i presume doing all it's business upfront, does amortisation come into it as much especially with it being much more a haphazard and subjective variable than in the normal business world (ie for accounting for the buying of plant machinery) ? Agreed, wouldn't blow apart, but may mask underlying issues! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 again kind of what i was getting at. the original thing i took umption at was the idea that player trading would "blow apart" something which i can't really see. Well, I'm guessing player trading for the year will be massively positive, so what I was getting at was the final financials would certainly put a very different spin on the financial performance of the club that had been previously alluded to by our illustrious MD. Apologies if the choice of words was hyerbole. Amortisation will be exactly the same whether the club pays up front or not, how we pay will only impact the cash flow statement. It should also be fairly standard- all fees are capitalised then accounted for in equal chunks over the lift of the contract, down to zero (if you extend the contract you spread out what was left over the new term). It is cash flow that will drive any reduction in the intercompany loan. It's a tricky one to predict, theory would say there's no point leaving cash sitting idle, but equally I don't suspect Ashley is particularly short right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 again kind of what i was getting at. the original thing i took umption at was the idea that player trading would "blow apart" something which i can't really see. Well, I'm guessing player trading for the year will be massively positive, so what I was getting at was the final financials would certainly put a very different spin on the financial performance of the club that had been previously alluded to by our illustrious MD. Apologies if the choice of words was hyerbole. Amortisation will be exactly the same whether the club pays up front or not, how we pay will only impact the cash flow statement. It should also be fairly standard- all fees are capitalised then accounted for in equal chunks over the lift of the contract, down to zero (if you extend the contract you spread out what was left over the new term). It is cash flow that will drive any reduction in the intercompany loan. It's a tricky one to predict, theory would say there's no point leaving cash sitting idle, but equally I don't suspect Ashley is particularly short right now. what i meant about amortisation is that it's purely for accounting purposes, for example tiotes amortisation would be very low now but his true value would be massive, for football clubs cash flow is the real way to find out whats happening. things like amortisation are little more than accountancy tools. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 A THOUGHT THAT NEVER CHANGES BECOMES A STUPID LIE http://www.true-faith.co.uk/tf/editorials.nsf/LookupUNID/267F83DE06E2C0B6802579BE006B1EC2? Whilst we spent the earlier part of last week outraged at the smears and lies Martin O’Neill attempted to spread about the coaching and management team of Newcastle United, post-derby, that playground spat wasn’t the most important development of the last eight days. No, the release of the club’s financial results shone an altogether different light onto where we are right now. No-one with Newcastle United’s best interests at heart won’t be pleased at the direction the club is taking on the financial front and when the Managing Director suggests he and Mike Ashley are deserving of a bit credit, then he is correct. Ashley has made £140m’s worth of interest fee loans to Newcastle United Football Club. This represents the single biggest act of generosity towards our club in its entire history. Bar none. Have a word with a supporter of Rangers, Portsmouth or Leeds United to understand what that kind of investment means to a football club. When Derek Llambias suggests without that money we’d be a Pompey-shaped basket case he is absolutely 100% correct. When the club’s annual losses have been cut to under £4m p.a. from a head-spinning £20m p.a. when Mike Ashley took the club over, then you know something has happened at United to bring sanity to the running of what is after all, a business like any other. An emotional, very special business but a business nevertheless! As we stand in the upper echelons of the PL with a squad with an altogether greater level of value than the one he inherited in 2007, it is time to give credit where it’s due. It is time to give credit to Mike Ashley for not taking any money out of the club. He could not be more different in this regard to Sir John Hall and Freddie Shepherd who along with their mammoth incompetence had a colossal greed which put us on the brink of a financial implosion the like of which is currently being played out at Ibrox Stadium. I am certainly not missing the ludicrous manoeuvring in the transfer market that was undertaken on Shepherd’s watch with sickening frequency but I do celebrate the investment that is going into our youth development, coaching and scouting infra-structure. Talk to anyone who is involved behind the scenes at United, on and off the record and they will attest to a progressive and professional set up, the like of which we have never seen before at our club. Hall talked the talk on this score but Mike Ashley is getting on with business and saying little, as ever. Those of you who have been with true faith over many years will know how we railed at the ticket pricing at United and how it acted to disenfranchise a whole generation of supporters. There are those who may choose to overlook the bonds, platinum club, season ticket hikes and worthless shares sold by Hall-Shepherd but I’m not one of them. That pair of charlatans took our eyes out for years and grew very rich, right to the end of their disastrous ownership of Newcastle United. I’m not suggesting Ashley has made Newcastle United affordable to everybody in the NE. He clearly hasn’t but he has developed a range of offers that have made going to St James’ Park more affordable than it has ever been. Offers have been made to draw in commitment and I’m full of admiration for a family enclosure of just over 7000. Credit where it’s due! Mike Ashley is doing a better job of running Newcastle United now than at any point in my 40 years of following the club. That’s not to say the almost five years Ashley has been at United have been plain sailing. They most certainly have not and there have been times when we’ve prayed to be delivered from his ownership of our club. For a large part it has been gut-wrenching and head banging frustration. His first two years at the club were marked by one bad decision after another, starting from his decision to buy United without completing due diligence (God knows if he’d have decided to jump in had he actually seen the books, mind) and resulting in that gut-wrenching relegation on a scorching day at Villa Park on 24/May/09. Over the last five years we’ve been variously staggered, appalled, bewildered and angered by some of the stunts Ashley has pulled but here we are, the clouds are starting to clear and the outlook is looking better than it has at any time in the last fifteen years. Credit should definitely be given even if it means swallowing hard on some of the stuff many of us have said and written over the last five years. That’s not to say everything in the garden is rosy. I am one of many supporters who will never accept our grand old stadium being referred to as anything other than St. James’ Park. It was this fanzine that wrote to every member of Newcastle City Council and backed the move for a full council meeting to agree never to refer to St James’ Park in any council/official capacity by any other name. I don’t mind how much money the club might make from rebranding St James’ Park. Some things matter far more than money and that is history, tradition and soul. It was this fanzine that wrote to every Northern MP and encouraged the laying down of an Early Day Motion in the House of Commons to articulate parliamentary opposition to the re-branding. It was this fanzine which has started an online petition to the BBC to persuade them to continue our stadium by the SJP name and encouraged supporters to write to the BBC on Barrack Road to press them to do likewise. Those campaigns are working because few media outlets refer to our stadium by anything other than St James’ Park. The fact that the hardly cerebral Sunderland supporting fraternity see referring to SJP by the name of Ashley’s company as some kind of childish point-scoring tells you everything you need to know about the re-branding. I read a wise Mag a few weeks ago who opined that no-one that matters will ever refer to SJP by any other name. He was absolutely spot on! The re-branding saga is currently the only blot on Mike Ashley’s stewardship of Newcastle United I’m convinced the whole episode is an attempt to promote Sports Direct and until there is a sponsor to prove me wrong, I’ll remain of that view. However, just suppose I’m wrong, I don’t think against such strong local sentiment and political opposition anyone would touch the rebranding. That’s not to say an accommodation couldn’t be reached which would give the club much needed revenue but which retains the heritage, tradition and identity of the club and the city. For years, Boro had a stadium sponsor … the Cellnet Riverside Stadium being well established. If a new sponsor was to be, say Microsoft then I think we could live with Microsoft St James’ Park. That would give the club what it wants and leave us with the name of our stadium. But that’s just my opinion. What I do know is this … it is a crying shame we can’t put past problems behind us all, recognise the good things that are happening and unite under a Black & White flag. * I have to take issue with those who tore down the Sports Direct signage at SJP at the Reserve Derby on Thursday night. That was out of order and the manner in which the vandalised hoardings were indiscriminately thrown around was potentially dangerous and should not have happened. Similarly the vandalism to the Sports Direct shop door in Eldon Square may have been something and nothing but again it is not right. Why have these incidents not happened before? There have been plenty matches played at SJP and plenty opportunities for this kind of stuff to happen. It’s my contention the vandalism (such as it was) like the pitch invasion at Darlington in pre-season was undertaken by a group of young supporters, usually around the 17 /18 years old mark who don’t usually get to matches home or away for a variety of reasons and seek to prove their Mag credentials in the wrong way when they get to matches. They are having the impact of making United think carefully about playing pre-season games in the NE region against clubs that desperately need the money as well as convincing the powers that be at United to conclude opening SJP for Reserve games isn’t worth the time, money or effort. Basically, everybody suffers for the actions of the daft lads. The irony of course is that without a big dollop of the fortune Mike Ashley made from Sports Direct going into Newcastle United, we’d be fucked. After everything that has been said and done over the last few years it is galling in many ways to accept that but given where we are in the league, the attendances at SJP on match-day, the developing infrastructure and the excellent work of the manager, it would simply be stupid to ignore the evidence of what is in front of our own eyes. Newcastle United is probably the best run club in the Premier League. Keep On, Keepin’ On … If you haven’t made an official complaint to the BBC about their policy to call our grand old home after a shop, then you should. Go to: https://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/forms/?id=TLGNISE6JC275VGFB93LALUP5C#anchor Likewise, sign the petition to record your unhappiness at the BBC’s daft position in the North East. Go to: http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/st-james-park-forever/4027 Hell, you can even by a t-shirt (with all proceeds going to the Sir Bobby Robson Foundation). Details at: http://www.cultzeros.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=T You can now subscribe to true faith via the online facility. Simply go to the link below to get all of the details: http://www.themagonline.co.uk/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SUB0003 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Good read that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Tough reading for some on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Good read that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Tough reading for some on here. Grammatically it wasn't great and it pissed me off that he kept starting paragraphs with 'that's not to say' but I got through it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Tough reading for some on here. Grammatically it wasn't great and it pissed me off that he kept starting paragraphs with 'that's not to say' but I got through it I was more concerned by the title. Dramatically nonsensical? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Tough reading for some on here. Grammatically it wasn't great and it pissed me off that he kept starting paragraphs with 'that's not to say' but I got through it I was more concerned by the title. Dramatically nonsensical? Yeah, the title bears no relation to the article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pi_D Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Good read that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scum Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Don't ever leave us Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I've said for a long time that financially he's made a number of very good decisions and the stability brought to the club. Take a look at Liverpool and the way they've thrown money away and for what? It's such an empty way to build a football club, just spending and spending. Chelsea have spent a horrific amount of money and are just a mess so it's really not the way to build a club up. We have built something here which is going to continue to get stronger and more stable, we have a structure in place where we can bring in better players year on year without spending silly amounts of money. For this Mike Ashley is starting to get credit and he can have the credit he deserves for these decisions. But he's lost a great number of supporters for life and no decision he makes will win them back. There's building sustainability and then there's destroying things which are just as important if not more. For me, I can't forgive him for a number of his decisions and will never like him even though I know his stewardship is good for the club. I want him to remain here for the long term but in much the same way someone may know something is good for them but still dislike it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts