Hatem Ben Arfa

[Parky]

Ben Arfa is a must in the side, I could understand if we had a Nobby Solano in the squad BUT the alternatives at this moment are poor

 

Everyone must track back forever!! /Pards

 

 

I don't think I;ve ever seen Krul track back.

 

Out!! Out! with heeeeeeem.

[madras]

Ben Arfa is a must in the side, I could understand if we had a Nobby Solano in the squad BUT the alternatives at this moment are poor

 

Everyone must track back forever!! /Pards

 

 

I don't think I;ve ever seen Krul track back.

 

Out!! Out! with heeeeeeem.

if krul tracked back he'd break simpsons toes.

[alpal78]

We're hardly playing consistantly crap football ffs  Pardew makes do with what he has available.

 

We've scored some lovely goals this season

 

 

Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player.

 

I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of

 

He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times.

 

Out of curiosity, what is his problem with team work? He is not a team player? you must have missed his assist and chances that he created? Or are his potential replacements better at "teamwork" whatever that means? I do agree though that he has to find the balance between dribbling and making simple passes. He does not need to go for the killer move all the time, football is also a game of patience and control

[alpal78]

We're hardly playing consistantly crap football ffs  Pardew makes do with what he has available.

 

We've scored some lovely goals this season

 

 

Exactly, it's getting silly now and a lot seems to be based solely on the defence of one player.

 

I like Ben Arfa a hell of a lot, he can be an absolute genius and has the natural ability far beyond a player we could (normally) realistically attract but it's also not difficult to see why he would cause a manager concern at times. It is a genuine shame that the issue is stopping some from enjoying a fantastic season. You can guarantee the same group will moan before every game that he won't start, moan if he doesn't start (usually with a comment like "well that's cost us the game!") or if he does start moan that others on the pitch didn't give him enough chances to show what he can do. He has the attention Barton could only dream of

 

He has done brilliantly in the limited chances he has been given but there have also been clear signs why a manager who has based our eye opening success this season on team work has had to hold him back at times.

 

I don't understand these obvious concerns a manager in Pardew's position would have about playing Ben Arfa. Care to enlighten me?

 

As brilliant as he is he gives the ball away a fair bit when we seem to be in control and have players pushing forward, leaving us exposed to a counter attack. We have got lucky a few times.

 

Personally I would have the lad in the side every week but it's not hard to see why he would give a manager something to think about.

 

He does, but contrary to what some people on here would have you believe, he also works very hard to get it back. I remember at least two incidents this season where this happened and we scored from him winning back possession, lastly this past weekend our first goal vs Blackburn. As for the other players moving forward, this is a matter of tactics. When a player goes on a run the striker(s) and wingers should move forward, along with maybe one of the central midfielders, not both. If everybody pushes forward and we are caught out on the break that is not so much a problem with the person losing the ball (which is always a possibility), but also how the other players react to it.

 

Another thing is we lose a lot of possession in other ways, be it by long punts that bounce off our forwards or go straight to the opposition or by wayward passes from the back or midfield. I would argue we lose the ball a lot more in these ways than we do by Ben Arfa losing it when he's trying to make something happen in the opposition half. The problem is, it's very noticeable when it happens when you're on the edge of your seat waiting for something exciting to happen, because he is that type of player, whereas when it's Krul or the defence kicking it long you almost expect us to lose the ball most of the time and it's a pleasant surprise if one of the strikers actually manages to make it stick. Percentage wise I don't think Ben Arfa loses more possession than many other players, but it gets noticed a lot more. The flip side is that whenever he does not lose the ball, he is much more likely to make something positive happen. For that reason it is imperative that we stick with him.

 

Top post 

[oldtype]

He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away.

 

These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent.

 

Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions?

 

Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass)

Won the penalty at Man Utd

Set up Ba vs WBA

Scored the opener at Bolton

Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn

Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on)

Ditto for Simpson at Brighton

Scored at Fulham

 

but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man.

 

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game.

 

He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make.

 

Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead

 

If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then?

 

Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?"

 

Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning."

 

Where's the straw man then?

[alpal78]

He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away.

 

These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent.

 

Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions?

 

Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass)

Won the penalty at Man Utd

Set up Ba vs WBA

Scored the opener at Bolton

Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn

Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on)

Ditto for Simpson at Brighton

Scored at Fulham

 

but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man.

 

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game.

 

He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make.

 

Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead

 

If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then?

 

Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?"

 

Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning."

 

Where's the straw man then?

 

We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you?

[mrmojorisin75]

it's becoming painfully clear that it's just not gonna work out for hba here isn't it?

[Taylor Swift]

Painfully clear after not having ten starts. Are you kiddin me?

[mrmojorisin75]

not basing it on stats alone, basing it on pardew and his past history with flair players plus how he's handled hba vs. obertan to this point

 

hope i'm wrong but i don't think pardew will be able to successfully integrate him into his side...pardew does not seem to have much room for flair on a consistent basis imo

[oldtype]

He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away.

 

These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent.

 

Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions?

 

Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass)

Won the penalty at Man Utd

Set up Ba vs WBA

Scored the opener at Bolton

Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn

Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on)

Ditto for Simpson at Brighton

Scored at Fulham

 

but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man.

 

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game.

 

He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make.

 

Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead

 

If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then?

 

Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?"

 

Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning."

 

Where's the straw man then?

 

We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you?

 

We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"?

 

I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with.

 

"You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion.

[eliassenfredrik]

If we're going by that logic, Best and Ameobi certainly wont start, so at least we'll have some quality up front.

which logic is this ?

 

Well it seems people think Ben Arfa isn't starting because of his last two games (I can't see any other reason for it), and by that logic OTHER players who've played unsatisfying should ALSO not start the game. I'm not saying he'll start for certain, but yeah I give up. Pardew obviously has a major issue with players carrying the ball trying to do something with it. (i.e showing some individualism, rocket science I know). And I'm assuming this is because of the potential failure ratio, meaning possession loss. Well, that's an unreasonable state of mind, when you just have to look a bit further up the pitch and behold possession loss and clumsiness beyond comprehension. Doesn't add up. Which is sad.

[simonsays]

Absolutely vital he plays while Cabaye is out in my opinion. Not sure where the creativity will come from otherwise. Unfortunately I can see Raylor and Obertan starting and us relying on long balls and set pieces.

[Cronky]

Two points -

 

Yes, Ben Arfa does help the defence out but not always. He's erratic in his decisions and his team-mates can't rely on him.

 

Yes we lose the ball through inaccurate punts forward and poor control from the strikers, but sometimes Ben Arfa loses it whilst trying to dribble the ball from the midfield. That's dangerous because often several players are in advance of him at the time and the defence is then left exposed with lots of players out of position. It's also unnecessary because, as jpd has pointed out, he'd usually be better off giving a quick pass and then moving forward to try and collect the ball in a more dangerous position.

 

I don't think we should in any way be giving up on him, because he's not a million miles away from being a much better player. What he needs to lose is this impulse to try and win games on his own.

[Dr Venkman]

I've got a feeling these discussions won't be as detailed once we've got some proper strikers for him to pass to. It'll be a case of assists, goals, job done. Again.

 

And I've always said we'll see the best of him next season when he's got a pre season and more comfortable with the league, not that I think he's done badly this season.

[mrmojorisin75]

I've got a feeling these discussions won't be as detailed once we've got some proper strikers for him to pass to. It'll be a case of assists, goals, job done. Again.

 

And I've always said we'll see the best of him next season when he's got a pre season and more comfortable with the league, not that I think he's done badly this season.

 

you think pardew will find a place for him permanently then?  he strikes me more of a meat and drink 2 strikers and 2 hard working wingers type

[Dr Venkman]

I've got a feeling these discussions won't be as detailed once we've got some proper strikers for him to pass to. It'll be a case of assists, goals, job done. Again.

 

And I've always said we'll see the best of him next season when he's got a pre season and more comfortable with the league, not that I think he's done badly this season.

 

you think pardew will find a place for him permanently then?  he strikes me more of a meat and drink 2 strikers and 2 hard working wingers type

 

I've seen nothing so far to suggest Ben Arfa doesn't work hard tbh. I also don't think we'll be limited to 4-4-2, Ba looks like he could play in the middle of the 3 in the 4-2-3-1. Two decent full backs opens up all sorts of opportunities as well.

[mrmojorisin75]

sincerely hope you're right and i'm very, very wrong

 

 

[Guest]

I'm confident enough to think Pardew realises that this is effectively first season in the Premier League so will be a bit patient. That doesn't mean he'll start 100% of the games, and I can see him being sub occasionally, come off after 45-60 minutes if he's not doing what he's capable of, etc. I'm sure HBA is clever enough to know this too. I think pre-season is massive for him this time around.

[alpal78]

He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away.

 

These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent.

 

Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions?

 

Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass)

Won the penalty at Man Utd

Set up Ba vs WBA

Scored the opener at Bolton

Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn

Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on)

Ditto for Simpson at Brighton

Scored at Fulham

 

but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man.

 

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game.

 

He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make.

 

Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead

 

If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then?

 

Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?"

 

Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning."

 

Where's the straw man then?

 

We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you?

 

We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"?

 

I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with.

 

"You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion.

 

Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there!

 

The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward.

[pedro111]

He is mint, end of story; this is Colocinni all over again.

[SteveMc]

He is mint, end of story; this is Colocinni all over again.

 

This thisedy this

[mrmojorisin75]

He is mint, end of story; this is Colocinni all over again.

 

interesting comparison that, if it's to stand up then pards is going to have to stick with him through the good and bad at some point

 

to date he seems very unwilling to do that

[Yorkie]

This sounds a bit wishy-washy and a bit of a baseless statement... but i've got confidence that Pardew knows exactly what he's doing with Ben Arfa, and by the time 2012 is finished, Ben Arfa will be the first name on our team sheet and playing as we all know he can.

 

Pardew's not blind to what the lad can bring us, but it's still going to take time for him to get back to his best. He's had the injury, it's still a new club, and most importantly, it's a brand new league and style of football. Plus, in spite of how well we're doing, we haven't had a settled squad or system - what with injuries, suspensions and the ACoN, and the sheer fact that the squad itself is actually very new.

 

It's a general point really; our squad is young and very much in its early days. Hopefully there'll be a maximum of two or three additions to the starting line-up in the summer, and the rest of the money is spent on youth and depth. Because the potential of the first team is astronomical. It just needs 12 months or so to fully integrate and all marry together; Ben Arfa is a key component in that.

[oldtype]

He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away.

 

These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent.

 

Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions?

 

Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass)

Won the penalty at Man Utd

Set up Ba vs WBA

Scored the opener at Bolton

Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn

Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on)

Ditto for Simpson at Brighton

Scored at Fulham

 

but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man.

 

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game.

 

He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make.

 

Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead

 

If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then?

 

Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?"

 

Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning."

 

Where's the straw man then?

 

We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you?

 

We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"?

 

I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with.

 

"You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion.

 

Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there!

 

The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward.

 

Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"?

 

There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ"

 

If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place?

[Parky]

He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away.

 

These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent.

 

Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions?

 

Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass)

Won the penalty at Man Utd

Set up Ba vs WBA

Scored the opener at Bolton

Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn

Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on)

Ditto for Simpson at Brighton

Scored at Fulham

 

but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man.

 

What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game.

 

He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make.

 

Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead

 

If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then?

 

Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?"

 

Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning."

 

Where's the straw man then?

 

We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you?

 

We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"?

 

I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with.

 

"You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion.

 

Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there!

 

The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward.

 

Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"?

 

There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ"

 

If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place?

 

I'm being attacked on the internets!!