Canuck Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I still think there is more to it than this player is better so must start. The manager and coaching staff will see these players in training pretty much every day and see what is better as a group for the team and what type of football we can play as a team. Ben Arfa could possibly move to a better side who can afford to have that sort of player and be a massive success but that doesn't mean he will fit in any side. Obertan might not be the best player at any one part of the game but his pace and even his lack of willingness to take a gamble might be an advantage in respect of the set up the manager and staff think will get the best results. Raylor obviously plays a more significant role by the fact he is more defensive and will play it simple. I agree with this perspective. The manager sets up to get points, which is what is happening this season. He will assess the players every training session against the criteria that he and his staff have decided upon. I do not believe that the staff (manager included) have an agenda, for or against, any individual because that would cost them points, money and job security. Lose, lose, lose... The manager has to fit all of the pieces of the jigsaw together and if the fans have an agenda favouring one player over another that is unfortunate because they do not have the same exposure to the player's or tactics; nor do they risk losing their job over it. I get that their are supporters that are keen to see HBA do great things - and I hope he does. I do not understand ripping on the manager over some made up agenda over flair players, or saying that the manager can't handle HBA and favours other players over him. That just does not ring true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I still think there is more to it than this player is better so must start. The manager and coaching staff will see these players in training pretty much every day and see what is better as a group for the team and what type of football we can play as a team. Ben Arfa could possibly move to a better side who can afford to have that sort of player and be a massive success but that doesn't mean he will fit in any side. Obertan might not be the best player at any one part of the game but his pace and even his lack of willingness to take a gamble might be an advantage in respect of the set up the manager and staff think will get the best results. Raylor obviously plays a more significant role by the fact he is more defensive and will play it simple. I'm yet to see a valid reason for either Taylor or Obertan playing on the wing in place of Ben Arfa. Taylor did very well for Ba's goal against Villa but I doubt he'd do that again if he played for the rest of the season. Taylor's assist to Ba was voluntary or was he trying to shoot at goal ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Trying to shoot, no doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I think the main concern is HBA tries to do too much, rather than work rate. When talking about HBA I have seen a few comment about how Robert wasn't exactly hard working but from memory I don't remember him trying to take on 6 players and lose the ball, Robert' was more about trying to score every time he got the ball in he oppositions half and rightly or wrongly I fucking loved him taking a crack whenever he got the chance. Ben Arfa is a very offensive player which I have no problem with, I have said many times if it was up to me I would start him but as said his trying to take on the world as it were seems to be the main problem. As we have seen against Blackburn it can lead to something sublime but it can also lead to us losing the ball when the rest of the team have pushed forward leaving a mainly slow defence on the back foot against a counter attack (high line etc..). Some also say a long ball is just as bad but I can see why a manager would be a lot more concerned about losing a the ball 10 yards into their half with 3 players still behind itl rather than punting up field and your attacker losing the ball with 9-10 of your players still behind the ball. Percentage football does come into it and that sort of stuff bores some people but when it is getting the results it currently is then it's hard to argue for something more attractive, for me anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 But taking risks is part of Ben arfa's play. It's mainly when you take "risk"/gamble in a game that you're likely to score more goals than the other side... For example, if he didn't take that risk again Blackburn in the Cup, you wouldn't maybe/probably have qualified after... The games against Blackburn highlight the stupidity of how Ben Arfa is being judged, in the cup he scored a wonder goal and was rightly bigged up for it. In the league he tried something very similar which didn’t work out because he slightly over hit a ball while running towards goal, it went out of play and he’s dropped. If that had gone in he wouldn't have been dropped but nobody who has replaced him could do what he did. Obertan would have beaten the first man then done a few step overs until he had somebody between him and the goal, he would have then hit somebody between him and the goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 That stats are pretty much worthless over a small sample. How many games has HBA play compared to Raylor for example? and that's not even taking into account how many of those games Raylor has played in defence. We all know as an out and out attacking player then HBA is the best of the three but this isn't 5-a-side football. By your reckoning I could flick a coin once and claim that it would always fall the same way. The time played is based over hundreds of minutes and not one or two. It is 21 starts for Ryan Taylor, 16 starts for Obertan and 5 starts for Ben Arfa. Sorry I don't see this as a fair comparison, ignoring Obertan for a second you are comparing the attacking stats of Ryan Taylor who has started 21 games (and the vast majority must have been in defence) with Ben Arfa who has started 5 games with all of them being in a very attacking position Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Taylor's assist to Ba was voluntary or was he trying to shoot at goal ? To be fair to Taylor, whatever he was doing ended up with a goal and he put himself in where it hurts. I'm not too sure Ben Arfa would have gone in to that position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
binnsy Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I still think there is more to it than this player is better so must start. The manager and coaching staff will see these players in training pretty much every day and see what is better as a group for the team and what type of football we can play as a team. Ben Arfa could possibly move to a better side who can afford to have that sort of player and be a massive success but that doesn't mean he will fit in any side. Obertan might not be the best player at any one part of the game but his pace and even his lack of willingness to take a gamble might be an advantage in respect of the set up the manager and staff think will get the best results. Raylor obviously plays a more significant role by the fact he is more defensive and will play it simple. I'm yet to see a valid reason for either Taylor or Obertan playing on the wing in place of Ben Arfa. Taylor did very well for Ba's goal against Villa but I doubt he'd do that again if he played for the rest of the season. The only reason i can think of is our team has been built on solid organisation and a hardwork ethic, while HBA is undoubtedly a better player then the other two i think Pardew knows he can trust obertan and raylor to work the the "team unit". In Pardews eyes the "unit" comes before a players individuality and until Pardew feels he can trust Ben Arfa without the ball then he may lean towards the others. I don't think Raylor has let us down at all this season wherever he has been asked to play and for all Obertans faults in the 17 games he's started we've avoided defeat in 13 of them! That may well be bollocks but he's not been left out on abilty so i'm sticking with that lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
binnsy Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 But taking risks is part of Ben arfa's play. It's mainly when you take "risk"/gamble in a game that you're likely to score more goals than the other side... For example, if he didn't take that risk again Blackburn in the Cup, you wouldn't maybe/probably have qualified after... The games against Blackburn highlight the stupidity of how Ben Arfa is being judged, in the cup he scored a wonder goal and was rightly bigged up for it. In the league he tried something very similar which didn’t work out because he slightly over hit a ball while running towards goal, it went out of play and he’s dropped. If that had gone in he wouldn't have been dropped but nobody who has replaced him could do what he did. Obertan would have beaten the first man then done a few step overs until he had somebody between him and the goal, he would have then hit somebody between him and the goal. Mick i don't think he was dropped for trying to dribble and overrunning the ball, he was abysmal for the whole half he played, seemed to have been struck down with Sholaitis as it looked like he was playing with his boots on the wrong feet. Maybe one bad game didn't deserve to see him dropped but you can't say he was dropped for over running a dribble. After a okish start he offered absolutely nothing to the team either offensively or defensively from the time we scored till he got the hook at HT and it was full marks to Pardew for making the halftime sub and replacing him with Perch and making us more solid in the 2nd half. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Sorry I don't see this as a fair comparison, ignoring Obertan for a second you are comparing the attacking stats of Ryan Taylor who has started 21 games (and the vast majority must have been in defence) with Ben Arfa who has started 5 games with all of them being in a very attacking position 4 of the games Ryan Taylor started weren't in defence, that's 1 less than Ben Arfa has started in total. Ryan Taylor has been the free kick taker for 21 of his 21 starts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Still don't see it as a fair comparison. If we compared players over 4 games then Ba would be deemed worse than Best after the first 4 (or even 7) games of the season. To look over someones stats after 5 starts and compare them as an attacking player to someone with 21 starts (17 of them in defence) doesn't make sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I hope he'll play some part tomorrow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 But taking risks is part of Ben arfa's play. It's mainly when you take "risk"/gamble in a game that you're likely to score more goals than the other side... For example, if he didn't take that risk again Blackburn in the Cup, you wouldn't maybe/probably have qualified after... The games against Blackburn highlight the stupidity of how Ben Arfa is being judged, in the cup he scored a wonder goal and was rightly bigged up for it. In the league he tried something very similar which didn’t work out because he slightly over hit a ball while running towards goal, it went out of play and he’s dropped. If that had gone in he wouldn't have been dropped but nobody who has replaced him could do what he did. Obertan would have beaten the first man then done a few step overs until he had somebody between him and the goal, he would have then hit somebody between him and the goal. Mick i don't think he was dropped for trying to dribble and overrunning the ball, he was abysmal for the whole half he played, seemed to have been struck down with Sholaitis as it looked like he was playing with his boots on the wrong feet. Maybe one bad game didn't deserve to see him dropped but you can't say he was dropped for over running a dribble. After a okish start he offered absolutely nothing to the team either offensively or defensively from the time we scored till he got the hook at HT and it was full marks to Pardew for making the halftime sub and replacing him with Perch and making us more solid in the 2nd half. I didn't say that he was dropped for one bad dribble, I said that happened and he was dropped. I clarified what I meant when I said that if he'd scored it then he wouldn't have been dropped which is different. Also, most of the team were poor up until half time against Blackburn, only one came off at that time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I hope he'll play some part tomorrow. So do I, I don't see him starting as we will be wary of Spurs midfield (and rightly so) but to replace one of the front two or if we are comfortable a winger it would be a boost. My main concern is nothing to do with Ben Arfa but more than Shola will start over Cisse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Still don't see it as a fair comparison. If we compared players over 4 games then Ba would be deemed worse than Best after the first 4 (or even 7) games of the season. To look over someones stats after 5 starts and compare them as an attacking player to someone with 21 starts (17 of them in defence) doesn't make sense. Ryan Taylor was mentioned in the post that I replied to and that's why I mentioned him along with Obertan who was also mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Pards spoke on this already didnt he? He pretty much clarified that his issue with Ben Arfa is that we need to look solid defensively to play him. You can see the best and worst of him atm in the fulham game. Scored a class goal, then tried to do to much another time and they instantly scored after dispossessing him. As much as people have a go at Obertan, he doesnt get tackled or give the ball away much...he just perhaps doesnt make as much from a situation as he could at times. We normally always end up with a corner, throw in, freekick or it goes back to simpson somehow though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Still don't see it as a fair comparison. If we compared players over 4 games then Ba would be deemed worse than Best after the first 4 (or even 7) games of the season. To look over someones stats after 5 starts and compare them as an attacking player to someone with 21 starts (17 of them in defence) doesn't make sense. The problem is that you refuse to compare their respective attacking game but at the same time you compare willingly their defensive contribution to justify the presence of Taylor in place of Ben Arfa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Pards spoke on this already didnt he? He pretty much clarified that his issue with Ben Arfa is that we need to look solid defensively to play him. You can see the best and worst of him atm in the fulham game. Scored a class goal, then tried to do to much another time and they instantly scored after dispossessing him. As much as people have a go at Obertan, he doesnt get tackled or give the ball away much...he just perhaps doesnt make as much from a situation as he could at times. We normally always end up with a corner, throw in, freekick or it goes back to simpson somehow though. Obertan tried to clear a ball just outside our box in our last game which ended up closer to our goal after his attempt at it, anything could have happened from that but he was lucky. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I hope he'll play some part tomorrow. So do I, I don't see him starting as we will be wary of Spurs midfield (and rightly so) but to replace one of the front two or if we are comfortable a winger it would be a boost. My main concern is nothing to do with Ben Arfa but more than Shola will start over Cisse. Personally i think its more likely we will start with Perch-Guthrie-Gosling than Ba-Shola, with Pardew i wouldnt be surprised at the same time tho. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Still don't see it as a fair comparison. If we compared players over 4 games then Ba would be deemed worse than Best after the first 4 (or even 7) games of the season. To look over someones stats after 5 starts and compare them as an attacking player to someone with 21 starts (17 of them in defence) doesn't make sense. The problem is that you refuse to compare their respective attacking game but at the same time you compare willingly their defensive contribution to justify the presence of Taylor in place of Ben Arfa. Absolute nonsense, I have already said HBA is obviously the better attacking player. Just don't think stats like that have any relevance at all. Are you on the forum as a Newcastle fan or a Ben Arfa fan? If it's the latter there probably isn't any need for a 'debate', I care about the team more than individuals. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Still don't see it as a fair comparison. If we compared players over 4 games then Ba would be deemed worse than Best after the first 4 (or even 7) games of the season. To look over someones stats after 5 starts and compare them as an attacking player to someone with 21 starts (17 of them in defence) doesn't make sense. The problem is that you refuse to compare their respective attacking game but at the same time you compare willingly their defensive contribution to justify the presence of Taylor in place of Ben Arfa. Absolute nonsense, I have already said HBA is obviously the better attacking player. Just don't think stats like that have any relevance at all. Those stats are relevant to point out HBA's contribution to the team, to give some reasons why he could start in place of Raylor. You cannot compare the two (binnsy paved the way to that comparison) by pointing out the (defensive) strenghts of Raylor alone Are you on the forum as a Newcastle fan or a Ben Arfa fan? I'm on the forum to discuss and debate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 But you primarily found this forum as a Ben Arfa fan? It would be like discussing the pros and cons of gay marriage with Elton John, may agree with a lot of the points but there wouldn't be any actual sensible debate. No offence Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Pards spoke on this already didnt he? He pretty much clarified that his issue with Ben Arfa is that we need to look solid defensively to play him. You can see the best and worst of him atm in the fulham game. Scored a class goal, then tried to do to much another time and they instantly scored after dispossessing him. As much as people have a go at Obertan, he doesnt get tackled or give the ball away much...he just perhaps doesnt make as much from a situation as he could at times. We normally always end up with a corner, throw in, freekick or it goes back to simpson somehow though. Obertan tried to clear a ball just outside our box in our last game which ended up closer to our goal after his attempt at it, anything could have happened from that but he was lucky. Aye but not a sign of making the wrong decisions is it. Barfa is trying to do to much, everyone said it weeks ago during his first chances & we're still saying it weeks later. The lad almost has to much belief in himself trying flicks & taking on 2/3 players. Hes been out a year & come back to a league hes never played in. He should be keeping it more simple in the majority and progressing gradually in what he tries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Aye but not a sign of making the wrong decisions is it. Barfa is trying to do to much, everyone said it weeks ago during his first chances & we're still saying it weeks later. The lad almost has to much belief in himself trying flicks & taking on 2/3 players. Hes been out a year & come back to a league hes never played in. He should be keeping it more simple in the majority and progressing gradually in what he tries. Ben Arfa is likely to take too many touches while trying to do something to keep him in the team, he hasn't the luxury of being able to do anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 Pards spoke on this already didnt he? He pretty much clarified that his issue with Ben Arfa is that we need to look solid defensively to play him. You can see the best and worst of him atm in the fulham game. Scored a class goal, then tried to do to much another time and they instantly scored after dispossessing him. As much as people have a go at Obertan, he doesnt get tackled or give the ball away much...he just perhaps doesnt make as much from a situation as he could at times. We normally always end up with a corner, throw in, freekick or it goes back to simpson somehow though. Obertan tried to clear a ball just outside our box in our last game which ended up closer to our goal after his attempt at it, anything could have happened from that but he was lucky. Aye but not a sign of making the wrong decisions is it. Barfa is trying to do to much, everyone said it weeks ago during his first chances & we're still saying it weeks later. The lad almost has to much belief in himself trying flicks & taking on 2/3 players. Hes been out a year & come back to a league hes never played in. He should be keeping it more simple in the majority and progressing gradually in what he tries. Don't think it's too much belief, it's more rather he overthinks situations - he actually said in an interview a few weeks back that he asks himself so many questions when he has the ball at his feet (as in "what should I do now? Should I do this? Should I do that?"). It can be said that such a thought process does mean that he is prone to making the wrong decision from time to time (and this results in him losing possession). Needs to learn that playing it simple will work more often than not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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