Papiss Cissé

[Cajun]

It's like a merry-go-round in here

 

Wonder who's next up to take on Cajun and Unbelievable? Tag me back in, tag me back in!!

 

We won't be defeated! We are the ones in the right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[/NE5]

[Rich]

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions.

 

To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

[Jagten]

Erm, Everton away first half, which was our worst performance of the season by a mile coincidentally.. 

It wasn't our worst performance of the season "by a mile", and it really had little to do with Cisse.

 

He was also central in a 3 against Spurs in the second half. That seemed to work out OK. Probably our best result of the season.

[themanupstairs]

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions.

 

To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

 

I reckon Obertan and Jonas will play either side of Ba with Cisse dropping to the bench. Should be Marveaux in place of Jonas tbh but that's for another thread.

[Rich]

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions.

 

To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

 

I reckon Obertan and Jonas will play either side of Ba with Cisse dropping to the bench. Should be Marveaux in place of Jonas tbh but that's for another thread.

 

Who comes into the centre? Bigi? I can't see it.

[Cajun]

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions.

 

To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

 

I honestly don't know either It's always fucking me though!!

 

Can't help myself.

[Guest Tyson]

With the current emphasis on pumping early balls into the forward line (against positionally set centrehalves) Cisse will be ineffective through the middle. Not slating him (because i think he is very good at what he does) but his game revolves around avoiding contact, relying on movement (sneaking across the face of the centrehalves, with angled weighted balls/crossed fed in). I just don't think he is cut out for the task of getting battered around battling for speculative balls , they're 50/50s at best.

Ba is the better athlete, offers greater physical presence , and provides mpore nuisance value against 6ft+ centrebacks, so he is ultimately better suited to Pardew's 'Wimbledon' like philosophy of attack.

 

Cisse wrestling with, and getting bullied around like a rag-doll has eaten into his confidence and flow-on effect is obvious -  namelyon his finishing. He's snapping at his chances, has the look of a rushed finisher (hearing footsteps) who has lost his awareness of space around him & where closing-in defenders are.

 

The guy who must be scratching his head atm is Carr. He scouted and followed this bloke's progress for a few seasons. It took an unlikely set of circumstances to get this a polished/finished articlehere, within Ashley's spending parameters at a knock-down price,and it's taken less than six months of battering-ram football (more suited to Allardyce's Carroll, and K.jones) to destroy him.

 

Unless there's a seismic shift in Pardew's approach, there's no point in him being here. Lost opportunity this is turning (turned) into.

[Rich]

FWIW I think it would actually be the right move to drop Cisse rather than stick him out on the right again in this one. Save him for later in the game if we're still in with a sniff and gamble that coming on fresh might see him make an impact.

[Revolution]

With the current emphasis on pumping early balls into the forward line (against positionally set centrehalves) Cisse will be ineffective through the middle. Not slating him (because i think he is very good at what he does) but his game revolves around avoiding contact, relying on movement (sneaking across the face of the centrehalves, with angled weighted balls/crossed fed in). I just don't think he is cut out for the task of getting battered around battling for speculative balls , they're 50/50s at best.

Ba is the better athlete, offers greater physical presence , and provides mpore nuisance value against 6ft+ centrebacks, so he is the better suited to Pardew's 'Wimbledon' like philosophy of attack.

 

Cisse wrestling with, and getting bullied around like a rag-doll has eaten into his confidence and flow-on effect is obvious -  namelyon his finishing. He's snapping at his chances, has the look of a rushed finisher (hearing footsteps) who has lost his awareness of space around him & where closing-in defenders are.

 

The guy who must be scratching his head atm is Carr. He scouted and followed this bloke's progress for a few seasons. It took an unlikely set of circumstances to get this a polished/finished articlehere, within Ashley's spending parameters at a knock-down price,and it's taken less than six months of battering-ram football (more suited to Allardyce's Carroll, and K.jones) to destroy him.

 

Unless there's a seismic shift in Pardew's approach, there's no point in him being here. Lost opportunity this is turning (turned) into.

 

Yep, completely.

[Rich]

I was personally impressed with Cisse last season in terms of his ability to "compete" with central defenders. He was far better at receiving the ball with a defender at his back and holding it than I was expecting him to be. It was all very basic stuff (i.e. receive it, engineer space if required and play a simple ball), but he did it well enough. You can see it's not the best facet to his game at all, as Tyson suggests, but he can certainly do it - you don't tend to excel as a lone striker otherwise, I suppose.

[Tooj]

I was personally impressed with Cisse last season in terms of his ability to "compete" with central defenders. He was far better at receiving the ball with a defender at his back and holding it than I was expecting him to be. It was all very basic stuff (i.e. receive it, engineer space if required and play a simple ball), but he did it well enough. You can see it's not the best facet to his game at all, as Tyson suggests, but he can certainly do it - you don't tend to excel as a lone striker otherwise, I suppose.

 

I felt exactly the same. Some of his touches as well were what surprised me to, he's excellent at trapping the ball as well as bringing it down with his feet when it's in the air too. Like you say though obviously it's not his game.

[Dave]

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions.

 

To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

 

Krul

Simpson Williamson Coloccini Santon

Obertan Anita Perch Gutierrez

Ameobi Ba

[Tiresias]

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions.

 

To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

 

Krul

Simpson Williamson Coloccini Santon

Obertan Anita Perch Gutierrez

Ameobi Ba

 

I think that's what we'll see, I'd prefer Bigi instead of Jonas (yeah defensive 4-3-3 but we're going to have to play on counter) and prolly Ba dropped instead of Shola, but that's 6 and 2 3s

[Rich]

Exactly what I was just gonna post in the pre-match thread Dave

[Interpolic]

I really don't want to see us starting with a 442 again.

[Rich]

I really don't want to see us starting with a 442 again.

 

Suppose an alternative is to bring Marveaux and Obertan in for Cisse and Tiote and got to a 4-4-1-1 again with Marveaux in behind Ba, like we did there last season (but with Ben Arfa obviously).

[Jagten]

Not after our 4-4-2 against Man Utd at home, where we managed about 10% of possession and were 2-0 down after the first 15 minutes.

[Mick]

The thought of Shola starting. 

[Cronky]

The thought of Shola starting. 

 

You can't say he didn't earn it.

 

I'd start with the team that finished the QPR game. It looks the most effective unit we can muster at the moment.

 

Bring Sammy on as a sub.

[Mick]

The thought of Shola starting. 

 

You can't say he didn't earn it.

 

I'd start with the team that finished the QPR game. It looks the most effective unit we can muster at the moment.

 

Bring Sammy on as a sub.

 

He didn't earn it.

[Mick]

Shola has proved too many times that his cameo performances don't convert to his starting performances. He should never be starting against Man Utd.

 

I would still think about starting him against the mackems because he's always motivated for that one.

[Parky]

Why are you being so pretentious? "Excuses", what excuses? He's had a clear dip in form and people are trying to come up with reasons why, they aren't excuses.

 

It's not like there has been any reports of him not pulling his weight in training, or he isn't applying himself on the pitch, there are clearly other reasons for his dip in form. I don't necessarily think it's all Pardew's fault, that would be harsh, but at the moment it is as he's playing him on the f***ing wing.

 

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong..

 

As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me.

 

As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba?

 

Beggars f***ing belief this like.

 

I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself.

 

The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season.

 

If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season.

 

We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results?

 

Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here.

 

The service has been worse this season. Guti for one rarely gets a ball into the box, if Hatem isn't playing there is rarely a final pass on the ground to be had etc...Just a lot of strange ball from anywhere in their general direction (the strikers) or hoofed kicks down the middle (neither are dominant in the air against big hefty PL CD's). Psychologically this year as well after the deflated summer window a lot of the buzz has gone out of the side...Reality has hit home.

 

It came out as part of the Ba singing saga that and the way the deal was skewed that Ba was only really thinking of playing for us as a shop window...Our side and deffo not his side imagined he wouldn't be snapped up (Lord knows his release clause was publicised up and down the land and trumpeted by angels - but alas no takers).   So, this year he's been a bit Diva about things and now asking for silly money, moaning on french telly, niggling about his starting postion, taking free kicks he's clearly crap at. All this jazz needs to be reigned in and the team spirit returned. That for me is the fundamental first step and then 2/3 first team players is the second vital step...Or this winter is going to be dire.

There's nothing wrong with Cisse a bit of decent service won't cure. He gets one chance and one half chance a game at the moment.

[Kanj]

Shola has proved too many times that his cameo performances don't convert to his starting performances. He should never be starting against Man Utd.

 

I would still think about starting him against the mackems because he's always motivated for that one.

 

He deserves his cameo for sure, he 100% does after that shift & goal he put in the other day. Don't think starting him is going to do us any favors on getting Cisse back on track

[Skirge]

I am sure as part of the club pulling from Nigerians ACON squad he will be starting games.

[JH]

By the sounds of it, it's him saying no btw. Not the club (I don't even think we can?)