Papiss Cissé

[HawK]

Not disagreeing, but remember there's more to it than just numbers... a lot of chances he had when he first came over (and was relatively unknown) were in a team that created space for him to thrive and he a had more time to compose himself per chance than now.. perhaps a bit of 2nd season syndrome but we can't deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before. His link-up play was fine when he had players ahead of him in 2011/2012 also, so we were not really down a player - he just doesn't play the role of 1 up front well enough, he needs a striker more advanced than him I think.

 

Pardew tried it with Ba with Cisse, but neither striker can play as effective target-men or be able to hold the ball well enough when pumped long. Along the deck and allowing the wings to push on could have seen a whole different 'partnership' - so much of it comes down to tactics. I still shudder at the old Plan A - hoof to Ba/Cisse and don't contest the second ball.

 

That's all good and well (and I would deny he hasn't been afforded the kind of opportunities last season as the one before, see my earlier post, he has just missed many more chances relative to 2011-2012), but with the players out our disposal (i.e. considering Ben Arfa has been injured for large parts of the season, and we have no left winger to speak off), how would you have set us up to play to his strengths?

 

Another issue I have with Cisse being the lone forward, and again I am going over covered ground, is he doesn't relish a physical challenge at all, so unless he finds himself unmarked (and onside), having him just sit in the D as you suggested will not see him magically getting more chances by itself. Many of our problems are indeed tactical, but to deny the effects of injuries, an imbalanced squad and Cisse's own limitations is oversimplifying why Cisse hasn't been as effective this season as he should have been considering his obvious talent.

 

Bold -> Oh come on lol

 

Talking post-January, I wouldn't have lined up with a faux 4-4-2 with Sissoko as the second striker, pushing Cisse up top. I'm saying second striker as without the ball, Sissoko was in line with Cisse when pressing in all the games I managed to see. If it HAS to be 4-4-2 I would have put Gouffran alongside him, dropped Tiote and played Sissoko next to Cabaye. We've had Marveaux for the left and Ben Arfa/-shudder- Obertan on the right.

 

Although I still think a 4-3-3 suits us much better with current personal and we'd be much stronger. Keep the ball on the deck and the team almost picks itself and allows Cisse to drop back with the wider players pushing up.

[Cronky]

Pretty much all the player threads revolve around players not being played to their strengths. How can a PL manager not realize what thousands can.

 

Perhaps the thousands are being a bit naïve. Playing to Cisse’s strengths isn’t that simple a matter.

 

The way I see it, at the top level, there’s a real problem with integrating a specialist finisher whose hold up and linking play isn’t that good. You can –

 

a) Play him with more of a target man, but then you have two players who are both looking for the same advanced, central position, albeit for different reasons.

 

b) Try a), but then ask one or the other to move into a secondary, withdrawn or wider role, but then you’re asking one of them to do something they’re not good at. That was the whole Ba / Cisse issue.

 

c) Ask the finisher to play as an all-round striker, which is what we seem to be doing at the moment, but that isn’t working well.

 

d) Don’t ask the finisher to do anything other than play on the shoulders of the CBs, and get the rest of the team to create chances for him. Trouble is, your system lacks the interchanging of positions that can help to open up a defence, and you can look a bit static. It can also feel like you’re playing with 10 men, particularly if you’re up against good opposition.

 

Apart from all that, to make plan d) worthwhile, your finisher has to put away a high percentage of the chances that come his way, and personally I don’t think Cisse’s conversion rate is good enough for that.

 

 

I think perhaps you're over-thinking it a little. I would say we need people capable of creating space and committing defenders. Ba used to do this for him, and Best did it for Ba pre-Cisse. We have Ben Arfa and Gouffran who can do that. Play Gouffran up ahead of Cisse or have Cisse flanked by both, and he will keep getting the ball around the D where he does what he does best.

 

That sounds like option d), but in practice, the advanced striker has to play some part in the build-up and link with his team-mates, and that's where Cisse's limitations are being exposed. You can't exempt a striker from those tasks and just tell him to wait for chances to come his way. So it's reasonable to consider whether we can get a striker who offers a better package.

 

Who would you suggest who we can afford and might be possibly willing to come?

 

Unlike some of you guys, I’m not well up on possible strikers from abroad, so I’m limited to domestic options.

 

I’d like Benteke or Lukaku, but I think both are outside our range.

 

Best realistic option that I know of is Hoilett. I’d try playing him and Gouffy with Ben Arfa / Marveaux breaking down the centre from a midfield diamond.

 

We could probably get Shane Long, who looks a good all-rounder, but West Brom would take us to the cleaners on the fee.

 

[The College Dropout]

Unbelievable is actually making decent points about him recently, TCD still seems to be comparing him to world class strikers and completely negating the other parts of his game to nothing in the process.

 

 

Unbelievable's been making excellent points and its pretty much the stuff i've been saying for months.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We should definitely have gone for Long when he went to HBA, we needed him even then. For some reason it's one of the transfers I'm most gutted about.

[The College Dropout]

I'd take a big man with a bit of pace. Doesn't have to be particularly prolific. I wouldn't like us returning to 4-4-2 though.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think HBA and Gouf either side of Cisse with Anita/Cabaye/Sissoko behind is so obviously our best bet. The look to get an alternative to Gouf and competition for Cisse.

[The College Dropout]

We should definitely have gone for Long when he went to HBA, we needed him even then. For some reason it's one of the transfers I'm most gutted about.

We where in for him right? I hadn't seen him before hand but he's a very useful player. Reminds me of Bellamy in some ways.

[The College Dropout]

I think HBA and Gouf either side of Cisse with Anita/Cabaye/Sissoko behind is so obviously our best bet. The look to get an alternative to Gouf and competition for Cisse.

I do think we lack size and strength tbh. A Pardew side certainly needs it.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We should definitely have gone for Long when he went to HBA, we needed him even then. For some reason it's one of the transfers I'm most gutted about.

We where in for him right? I hadn't seen him before hand but he's a very useful player. Reminds me of Bellamy in some ways.

 

I don't know if we were, I just thought we should have been. I lived in Reading and used to watch them a fair bit. Also noticed that he runs like a robot.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think HBA and Gouf either side of Cisse with Anita/Cabaye/Sissoko behind is so obviously our best bet. The look to get an alternative to Gouf and competition for Cisse.

I do think we lack size and strength tbh. A Pardew side certainly needs it.

 

Possibly yeah, I would just be worried about adding it up front at the expense of the rest of the team. Not that the rest of the team could get much worse at the moment, I'm just hoping that next season will be better.

[Smal]

I'd take a big man with a bit of pace. Doesn't have to be particularly prolific. I wouldn't like us returning to 4-4-2 though.

 

Wouldn't we then end up with a not so prolific striker playing up front on his own? Where would the goals come from?

[Teasy]

For reference, if his chance conversion rate had been the same as last season, based on number of shots taken, he would have scored 26 in the Premiership alone.

 

Edit: probably more as this doesn't include shots taken in the last 4 games of the season.

 

If his minutes per goal ratio from last season had continued through this season he'd have scored 40 goals in the Premier League alone.  But then nobody on planet earth could have ever kept up the form Cisse had in his first half season here.

 

I don't disagree that he's under performed this season (partly down to the team/pardew and partly down to himself), but I don't think its worth making comparisons with his first half season, because its totally unrealistic.

[madras]

I think HBA and Gouf either side of Cisse with Anita/Cabaye/Sissoko behind is so obviously our best bet. The look to get an alternative to Gouf and competition for Cisse.

with current personnel yes. i was still disappointed with gouffran not getting in the box when playing wide of cisse and why I still think we'll get a remy/aubameyang type to play around cisse and with ben arfa. pre season I had hoped both ben arfa and marveaux would show more for getting in the box when off the ball but am now convinced neither has it in their natural game.

 

i'm not at all sure how cisse would link up with a carroll type if we play carroll like rodgers did as he was quite mobile when here and had a fantastic cross on him from the left.

[Unbelievable]

For reference, if his chance conversion rate had been the same as last season, based on number of shots taken, he would have scored 26 in the Premiership alone.

 

Edit: probably more as this doesn't include shots taken in the last 4 games of the season.

 

If his minutes per goal ratio from last season had continued through this season he'd have scored 40 goals in the Premier League alone.  But then nobody on planet earth could have ever kept up the form Cisse had in his first half season here.

 

I don't disagree that he's under performed this season (partly down to the team/pardew and partly down to himself), but lets not make too many comparisons with his first half season, because its totally unrealistic.

 

That was in response to somebody claiming his chance conversion rate had 't significantly dropped.

[madras]

For reference, if his chance conversion rate had been the same as last season, based on number of shots taken, he would have scored 26 in the Premiership alone.

 

Edit: probably more as this doesn't include shots taken in the last 4 games of the season.

 

If his minutes per goal ratio from last season had continued through this season he'd have scored 40 goals in the Premier League alone.  But then nobody on planet earth could have ever kept up the form Cisse had in his first half season here.

 

I don't disagree that he's under performed this season (partly down to the team/pardew and partly down to himself), but lets not make too many comparisons with his first half season, because its totally unrealistic.

 

That was in response to somebody claiming his chance conversion rate had 't significantly dropped.

how is the chance conversion thing done, does it take into account the difficuilty of the chance (and it must be said cisse has missed a fair few you'd expect lesser strikers to score over the last season) or is it just a goals to shots ratio ?

[Unbelievable]

For reference, if his chance conversion rate had been the same as last season, based on number of shots taken, he would have scored 26 in the Premiership alone.

 

Edit: probably more as this doesn't include shots taken in the last 4 games of the season.

 

If his minutes per goal ratio from last season had continued through this season he'd have scored 40 goals in the Premier League alone.  But then nobody on planet earth could have ever kept up the form Cisse had in his first half season here.

 

I don't disagree that he's under performed this season (partly down to the team/pardew and partly down to himself), but lets not make too many comparisons with his first half season, because its totally unrealistic.

 

That was in response to somebody claiming his chance conversion rate had 't significantly dropped.

how is the chance conversion thing done, does it take into account the difficuilty of the chance (and it must be said cisse has missed a fair few you'd expect lesser strikers to score over the last season) or is it just a goals to shots ratio ?

 

Both, see previous page

[madras]

i see, while agreeing with it and saying as much myself i'd still like to know which the what is classed as a clear cut chance, wonder if they have a list there.

 

 

on second thoughts i don't think i want to be reminded.

[Cajun]

I think we have two very good strikers in Cisse and Gouffran, however at the moment Gouf is our best option down the left.

 

Get a quality wide player this summer and we will automatically have another option through the centre.

[Hanshithispantz]

Unbelievable is actually making decent points about him recently, TCD still seems to be comparing him to world class strikers and completely negating the other parts of his game to nothing in the process.

 

 

Unbelievable's been making excellent points and its pretty much the stuff i've been saying for months.

You've been saying stuff like "Darren Bent MKII" which is complete and utter shite.

 

[Unbelievable]

Unbelievable is actually making decent points about him recently, TCD still seems to be comparing him to world class strikers and completely negating the other parts of his game to nothing in the process.

 

 

Unbelievable's been making excellent points and its pretty much the stuff i've been saying for months.

You've been saying stuff like "Darren Bent MKII" which is complete and utter s****.

 

 

I said the same thing, and I stand by it..

[Hanshithispantz]

Well you're back to talking shit then, I apologise

[Unbelievable]

Well you're back to talking s*** then, I apologise

 

Felt wrong to see you sort of agreeing with me.. 

[Tiresias]

People seem to be writing him off as a striker good enough for us even if his goals return, if he scores like he did after he joined for a season he'll be brilliant and we'd be very lucky to find an improvement. He was great and I want to give him another chance in front of a midfield that will give him the opportunities

[Unbelievable]

People seem to be writing him off as a striker good enough for us even if his goals return, if he scores like he did after he joined for a season he'll be brilliant and we'd be very lucky to find an improvement. He was great and I want to give him another chance in front of a midfield that will give him the opportunities

 

What?

 

I'm not sure anybody is writing him off like, more saying a big improvement is needed and if somebody is wiling to bid a stupid amount for him it wouldn't be the end of the world to sell him providing we get a replacement in first.

[Skeletor]

People seem to be writing him off as a striker good enough for us even if his goals return, if he scores like he did after he joined for a season he'll be brilliant and we'd be very lucky to find an improvement. He was great and I want to give him another chance in front of a midfield that will give him the opportunities

 

What?

 

I'm not sure anybody is writing him off like, more saying a big improvement is needed and if somebody is wiling to bid a stupid amount for him it wouldn't be the end of the world to sell him providing we get a replacement in first.

 

This is exactly why it would be the end of the world to sell him. We're still waiting to see if this regime will bother to really replace Ba with like for like quality yet.