Feeder teams

[Beren]

http://football365.com/news/21554/7443530/AVB-Wants-B-Teams-To-Play-In-Football-League

 

The idea of possible feeder clubs has already been suggested by the likes of predecessor Carlo Ancelotti and former Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez.

 

Villas-Boas admits England should look to Spanish football, where top-flight clubs field 'B' teams in the lower divisions, with some featuring in the second tier.

 

The Portuguese tactician believes non-competitive action is hampering some of England's best young talent.

 

The idea of feeder clubs has long been dismissed by the Football League, and any suggestion has never carried any favour with supporters either.

 

But Villas-Boas feels that having feeder clubs in the same country is an idea that warrants investigation.

 

"The youth development system in England is not right, in my belief. There is plenty of effort and talks to get it right but in my opinion it is not," said the Chelsea boss.

 

"The reserve team league is not competitive. The youth levels are not competitive enough. The FA Youth Cup: does it favour talent or competition?

 

"In my opinion there is a missing link between age groups in all competitions. There should be national championships played between teams from around the country.

 

"The older ones should play nationally. The younger ones should play regionally. You promote more talent and competitiveness and it is that which generates talent and willingness to drive."

 

It was put to him that at Barcelona, Pep Guardiola has given first-team debuts to 25 players who have been promoted from the club's feeder team since he took over as manager in 2008.

 

"Why has Chelsea failed to bring any significant player through from the youth team since John Terry's emergence more than 10 years ago?

 

"Because the gap between the reserve team and the first team is immense here.

 

"Barcelona 'B' play in the equivalent of the Championship. If the European model is applied in England, it could be tested.

 

"The reserve team serves the first team, but it doesn't serve the progression of talent coming through.

 

"It [buying a feeder club] could be a solution. There is more of a cultural identity [with the parent club] if it's called a 'B' team. It's the same name, the same environment. If it's a feeder club, I couldn't call a player up to my team until the transfer window opens.

 

"What happens in Barcelona 'B' is a good model in terms of competitions. If the talent is playing in [a feeder club] in a competitive league you can call up players, there is immediate identification by the players with the process you're trying to implement in your first team.

 

"And it could be a great benefit because you don't have to work with a 26-man squad, but a 19-man squad and just recall the best young guys.

 

"If Ryan [bertrand, who has had seven loan periods] and Josh [McEachran] could make the jump from Championship to Premiership every week, their involvement would be better.

 

"[in Spain] the older ones play nationally and the younger ones regionally. If the kids weren't able to win when they were young, they won't make it when they face the massive challenge."

 

Everton manager David Moyes has revealed his attempts to get a Toffees 'B' team into the Conference were scuppered by red tape. "Four or five years ago I would have liked to have put an Everton reserve team into the Conference because it would have been better football for them," he said. "But we would have had to have gone into Division Nine of the North-West Outer Counties or whatever you want to call it and it would have taken 10 or 11 years to get through. I would have been happy just to be in the Conference - no promotion, not involved in cups or anything."

 

Bit of a vogue topic, thought I'd bung it into a thread. Initial thoughts are it would be harsh/unfair on lower league sides, and it'd only serve to put more distance between Premier League fat cats and the rest.

[Village Idiot]

In Spain it works since our third flight (which has the majority of "B" teams from La Liga clubs) has 80 clubs in it, which means that there is still space for all the strong regional sides which the division is meant for. Since your divisions only have 20-24 clubs, I can see you second-third flights being monopolized by Premier League B squads.

 

But indeed, it does help a lot to give the lads a taste of regular competitive football at a critical age.

 

 

[Geordie Ahmed]

Don't like it, it serves to benefit the bigger clubs and they have enough advantages as it is

[ponsaelius]

NO.

 

Pisses all over the credibility of historic lower league teams (some older and with more pedigree than those currently occupying the top flight) and just serves to play into the hands of big clubs monopolising players.

[Beren]

I had wondered why it seems to work, and is acceptable, abroad.

 

How much of the current Spain national squad have experience in the B teams, would you say VI?

[Village Idiot]

I had wondered why it seems to work, and is acceptable, abroad.

 

How much of the current Spain national squad have experience in the B teams, would you say VI?

 

Well... practically all of them? Except the ones developed abroad like Piqué and Cesc. Any young player will play for his team's B squad first and then get promoted to the senior squad.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

In Spain it works since our third flight (which has the majority of "B" teams from La Liga clubs) has 80 clubs in it, which means that there is still space for all the strong regional sides which the division is meant for. Since your divisions only have 20-24 clubs, I can see you second-third flights being monopolized by Premier League B squads.

 

But indeed, it does help a lot to give the lads a taste of regular competitive football at a critical age.

 

This is it really.

 

English league system is '27' levels deep (the further down you get the crazy it becomes). There are so many teams in England, compared to say Germany and Spain. To take away a place in the higher leagues (even conference) from one of these teams for a Premiership B-Team is crazy. Imagine a Chelsea B-Team playing in the conference and disrupting/influence of the league for teams who can actually benefit from being promoted to the Football League and beyond. That Chelsea B-Team can never progress further than (lets say for arguments sake) League 2.

 

What happens when that feeder reaches League 2 and isn't allowed to progress further, yet keeps sitting top of the league?

 

If managers didn't have so many fears about loaning younger players out, this wouldn't be an issue.

[Village Idiot]

For what is worth, our B teams started in the 1950s-60s as independent teams that just had agreements with the big Spanish teams so they received a massive amount of loanees, some of them even got promoted to our first division (like Barça's B team in the 50s). It wasn't until later on that they were fully assimilated. Maybe you could use a similar model, just allow the big Premier League sides to "adopt" a struggling lower league team, and relax the loan restrictions so they can send a good amount of youngsters there.

[High Five o]

NO.

 

Pisses all over the credibility of historic lower league teams (some older and with more pedigree that those currently occupying the top flight) and just serves to play into the hands of big clubs monopolising players.

 

Sums it up perfectly! 

[Village Idiot]

In Spain it works since our third flight (which has the majority of "B" teams from La Liga clubs) has 80 clubs in it, which means that there is still space for all the strong regional sides which the division is meant for. Since your divisions only have 20-24 clubs, I can see you second-third flights being monopolized by Premier League B squads.

 

But indeed, it does help a lot to give the lads a taste of regular competitive football at a critical age.

 

This is it really.

 

English league system is '27' levels deep (the further down you get the crazy it becomes). There are so many teams in England, compared to say Germany and Spain. To take away a place in the higher leagues (even conference) from one of these teams for a Premiership B-Team is crazy. Imagine a Chelsea B-Team playing in the conference and disrupting/influence of the league for teams who can actually benefit from being promoted to the Football League and beyond. That Chelsea B-Team can never progress further than (lets say for arguments sake) League 2.

 

What happens when that feeder reaches League 2 and isn't allowed to progress further, yet keeps sitting top of the league?

 

If managers didn't have so many fears about loaning younger players out, this wouldn't be an issue.

 

I personally think that Spanish B teams should be capped at Segunda B. Of course, we are benefitting massively from having Barça B in Liga Adelante, but I feel ours and Villarreal B's spot should be held by a proper team.

[Beren]

For what is worth, our B teams started in the 1950s-60s as independent teams that just had agreements with the big Spanish teams so they received a massive amount of loanees, some of them even got promoted to our first division (like Barça's B team in the 50s). It wasn't until later on that they were fully assimilated. Maybe you could use a similar model, just allow the big Premier League sides to "adopt" a struggling lower league team, and relax the loan restrictions so they can send a good amount of youngsters there.

 

That's interesting. Wonder if they'd be too much pride involved with such a club, or if they'd welcome financial assistance from the adopting club. I suppose the two clubs would have to have strong existing ties already.

[Ronaldo]

NO.

 

Pisses all over the credibility of historic lower league teams (some older and with more pedigree than those currently occupying the top flight) and just serves to play into the hands of big clubs monopolising players.

 

Most of 'em deserve it, though.

[johnnypd]

no thanks, absolute piss-take to turn the championship into a meaningless division full of Man Utd B, Liverpool B, Chelsea B. Urgh. Unfortunately Spanish football seems to have gone down the route of favouring a handful of big sides, two above all, at the expense of the rest of their league, I wouldn't want to see that happen here. We've got good teams producing talent with strong followings and a rich tradition down in League One - totally different culture and set up so the Spanish way simply can't work here.

 

However I do think it is possible to create some sort of compromise between the integrity of lower division clubs (many of whom, let's remember, end up playing in the premiership) and the Spanish model, which, while abhorrent to me, does benefit young talent.

 

With many lower division clubs struggling they could go into partnership with larger teams - receive help on youth football, coaching and investment in return for receiving 4 or 5 young players sent out in a group each year, that way the youngsters get to play alongside their club mates and develop together as a unit while also experiencing competitive football that is ultimately more beneficial than youth or reserve league stuff. Wouldn't have Championship, and probably not League One teams doing it either, but it would help both us and someone like Gateshead if the two sides built up a relationship like that. Could end up generating even more interest for conference sides as well if there's highly rated youngsters learning the ropes down there.

[Ishmael]

For what is worth, our B teams started in the 1950s-60s as independent teams that just had agreements with the big Spanish teams so they received a massive amount of loanees, some of them even got promoted to our first division (like Barça's B team in the 50s). It wasn't until later on that they were fully assimilated. Maybe you could use a similar model, just allow the big Premier League sides to "adopt" a struggling lower league team, and relax the loan restrictions so they can send a good amount of youngsters there.

 

It would make competition in the lower leagues extremely unfair. 

 

Oh and it would tarnish the history of the 'feeder' team and belittle their standing as an individual outfit, which is what every single football team should be.  In this country at least.

 

B teams are a no for me.  Not in our league system. 

[ponsaelius]

NO.

 

Pisses all over the credibility of historic lower league teams (some older and with more pedigree than those currently occupying the top flight) and just serves to play into the hands of big clubs monopolising players.

 

Most of 'em deserve it, though.

 

They deserve where they are through their own failures (I assume you're referring to the likes of Leeds), they don't deserve to be playing against reserve sides every week - just like Conference, Conference North/South and as far down the pyramid you'd care to go don't deserve it.

 

Not even comparable to Spain tbh. I like Spanish football but our smaller local, lower league clubs have better away following than their top flight clubs ffs. These teams are the hubs of their communities. Our league system has functioned perfectly fine for over a century and we don't need to start messing about with it because the self-serving rich teams want to as it suits them.

[Wullie]

If the "big clubs" (hate that term) weren't so obsessed with snapping up young talent from other clubs before they're out of nappies simply to stop other clubs from doing the same, they wouldn't have such an issue of young players stagnating.

 

Norwich and Swansea have shown that players can indeed come through the divisions to a position where they can play at the top level and we need to get away from a place where players with any talent think they must join a Premier League academy to succeed in the game which has created this gap between the top flight and those below,

[Ameritoon]

I was hoping someone would make this thread. My initial reaction is against it, I see why people think it's a good idea and I'm not one to keep things the same just because that's how they've always been, but it would really ruin the uniqueness of the English system. There does seem to need to be a change in the way things are structured for reserve and youth sides, but I don't think compromising lower leagues is the way to do it.

[Village Idiot]

no thanks, absolute p*ss-take to turn the championship into a meaningless division full of Man Utd B, Liverpool B, Chelsea B. Urgh. Unfortunately Spanish football seems to have gone down the route of favouring a handful of big sides, two above all, at the expense of the rest of their league, I wouldn't want to see that happen here. We've got good teams producing talent with strong followings and a rich tradition down in League One - totally different culture and set up so the Spanish way simply can't work here.

 

Our B sides aren't set up to just help the big Spanish teams though, there are many non-top flight clubs with B sides for their youngsters, playing down in the lowest divisions. I played in my neighborhood team's B side as a kid. It's just part of our footballing tradition too.

[Ishmael]

Our B sides aren't setup to just help the big Spanish teams though, there are many non-top flight clubs with B sides for their youngsters, playing down in the lowest divisions. It's just part of our footballing tradition too.

 

Fair enough, but you can't transplant one system from an entirely different culture and expect it to work.

 

Put simply, B teams would not work in England and the only people who want them are the people who they would benefit the most...

[Village Idiot]

Our B sides aren't setup to just help the big Spanish teams though, there are many non-top flight clubs with B sides for their youngsters, playing down in the lowest divisions. It's just part of our footballing tradition too.

 

Fair enough, but you can't transplant one system from an entirely different culture and expect it to work.

 

Put simply, B teams would not work in England and the only people who want them are the people who they would benefit the most...

 

Was just responding to the claim that our system is set up to help the big Spanish teams. As I said in my first post in this thread, I don't think our system would work in England.

[SEMTEX]

I would prefer that the big clubs were just forced to take on a more limited group of players tbh. It sounds fairly retarded on paper, but why not stop teams taking on more than x amount of players under y age. I'm sure we could work out a more extensive version of this rule.

 

I mean, you could simply make the registered squad size a little larger, but say you have to register EVERY player. Or cap their salary or something.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

I can see the benefit in Spain for a B-Team, as VI said it increases the statue of the league they're in. Do we really need that over here? I don't think so. Teams have a very hardcore support, even down in Non-League regions. Sure B-Teams might boost interested and attendances somewhat (might even attract some TV Coverage), but I think it'd turn people away too.

[Village Idiot]

I fondly remember the "mini-derbies" my neighborhood team played against Barça B when we were in the same division. Biggest games of the year.

 

Also, I'm going to make the opposite case here. I do think that our standard of player improved once we started developing structured and competitive non-league youth competitions. When I was a kid U19 competitions were just an afterthought, more recreational than truly developmental. It was thought that B and C teams were where young players had to be developed, and outside them no much effort was put to have good training and playing structures. I don't think it's by chance that Spain has come to the fore coinciding with the reforms in the late 80s-early 90s to professionalize youth football.

[Hanshithispantz]

I would prefer that the big clubs were just forced to take on a more limited group of players tbh. It sounds fairly retarded on paper, but why not stop teams taking on more than x amount of players under y age. I'm sure we could work out a more extensive version of this rule.

 

I mean, you could simply make the registered squad size a little larger, but say you have to register EVERY player. Or cap their salary or something.

That would be great tbh. Sure Arsenal had something like 80 regestered players last season, you could probably get 3 teams out of that.

[leffe186]

I fondly remember the "mini-derbies" my neighborhood team played against Barça B when we were in the same division. Biggest games of the year.

 

Also, I'm going to make the opposite case here. I do think that our standard of player improved once we started developing structured and competitive non-league youth competitions. When I was a kid U19 competitions were just an afterthought, more recreational than truly developmental. It was thought that B and C teams were where young players had to be developed, and outside them no much effort was put to have good training and playing structures. I don't think it's by chance that Spain has come to the fore coinciding with the reforms in the late 80s-early 90s to professionalize youth football.

 

The thing is, I think many people would agree that the standard of player would probably improve. The problem is that a unique aspect of British football - the vast number of independent local teams being watched by appreciable crowds, all with an opportunity to climb the ladder - would be jeopardized. It's a choice, do we want to see the big clubs get bigger and lose a unique aspect of our game, but possibly see an improvement in the playing level? I think there's far too much to lose.