Shak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The last two and a half games have seen us playing with some form of 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation. The results have been... mixed, at best. After a very good season so far it would seem a strange move to drastically change our system at this point, especially now when it appears we finally have a worthy strike partner for Ba at the head of a 4-4-2. But long term I do think it might be Pardew's vision for the team, and looking at how the squad is shaping up I have to say it has the potential to be pretty tasty. With everyone fit I think we have 9 players who I'd feel very comfortable starting in it. Krul Santon Colo Taylor Tiote Cabaye Ben Arfa Ba Cisse Tiote and Cabaye would both really benefit from being part of a 3 man midfield. They're a great little engine room but at times the gap between the midfield is much too big, hence a lot of our long ball assaults this year. Tiote's problems tend to arise from trying to do too much when in possession. Put him in a pure "destroyer" role with two others who are expected to do the creative work in there with him and we'd mask his weaknesses and accentuate his strengths. Cabaye's game seems to be more built around being the guy who drops deep to start attacks than it is being the player who picks out the final ball around the opposition penalty area. Even when playing alongside Tiote he seems unwilling to get into advanced positions and hurt teams in the final third. I think he'll benefit from having a another midfielder more advanced than him that he can link up with. The issue obviously is finding someone to fill the most advanced of the three midfield spots. Ideally we'd be looking at a tidy player with an eye for a final ball who'll also get beyond the striker and nick a few goals himself. Looking at our squad, the only player who I could see fulfilling this role is Vuckic. I like Jonas, but he's not a good long term option in the middle of the park IMO. Yes he runs a lot and his energy levels are great, but a lot of his movement isn't particularly intelligent and he's no real threat to score or produce a piece of quality in the final third. Guthrie could potentially do a job in this spot, but long term I'd see him more as a quality backup for Cabaye than a starter in this system. The problem obviously is that we don't know if Vuckic is ready yet, or if he ever will be for that matter. I admit I do have reservations about moving Ba out wide given how lethal he's been this year. However, some of his best play has come playing as the more withdrawn of the two strikers when he can find space between midfield and defense to work in. He's not going to be playing as an orthodox winger in any case, rather he'll try to find the ball in space out wide and cut infield. The same goes for Ben Arfa, who is absolutely made for this formation. Another nice thing about Ba is that in the event that Cisse misses some games then we can move Ba to the striker role and bring in Jonas/Obertan/a new signing to play the wide role rather than having to witness Shola or Best trying to lead the line. Cisse will play on the shoulder of the defense, giving Cabaye an option over the top if teams play a high line against us. Obviously, a potential issue from playing with two wide men like this is that unless you've got two full backs with both the energy and quality to consistently get up and down the field and contribute to the attacking play then often you're going to get caught playing too narrow. Your full backs need to provide an outlet if teams give you nothing in the middle, and having a dedicated holding player like Tiote and a player like Cabaye who sits relatively deep too gives both your full backs plenty of license to get forward without too much worry of leaving you exposed on the break. From what I've seen of Santon, he looks good enough. He absolutely needs to be on the right though. You want your full backs getting to the byline and whipping in crosses, not arsing about trying to get the ball on their stronger side. We need a left back, obviously. The links to Cissokho make a lot of sense, from what I know of him he can get up and down the flank all day. If not him then someone else who's good going forward. Ferguson actually makes some sense from what we already have, but honestly he seems more like good backup than a good starter, at least for a few years until he proves otherwise. In the summer I'd look for us to move on Shola/Best (ideally/realistically), Lovenkrands, Smith and Perch. Main target is a top quality left back. After that we need to find another CM. I'm not sure who this would be honestly, I'd trust Carr to find someone though. Then add another wide man (Hoilett would be great if he's going cheap) and a reserve CB. Possibly a reserve GK too if they think Elliot is no good. First team squad then looks like this: GK: Krul, Elliot/New GK RB: Santon, Simpson, R Taylor LB: New Signing, Ferguson, R Taylor CB: Colo, S Taylor, New Signing, Williamson CM: Tiote, Cabaye, New Signing (First Choice Trio) Guthrie, Vuckic, Gosling, Abeid Wingers: Ben Arfa, Ba, New Signing, Jonas, Obertan, Sammy Strikers: Cisse, Ba, Best/Shola Or maybe we should just stick with the 4-4-2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Shit thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well, you never know but i think Ba might be more effective being a little more central than that. As a suggestion: Back 5 ......................Cabaye...........Tiote........................ Ben Afa.........................Ba......................Jonas/Vuckic ...................................Cisse................................... A 4-2-3-1. All others points you've made seem logical to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Think Pardew's long term vision is just 4-4-2 with Ba floating a bit tbh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conjo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 4-4-2 with Ba floating is fine and dandy with me as long as there is room for Ben Arfa on the right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Well, you never know but i think Ba might be more effective being a little more central than that. As a suggestion: Back 5 ......................Cabaye...........Tiote........................ Ben Afa.........................Ba......................Jonas/Vuckic ...................................Cisse................................... A 4-2-3-1. All others points you've made seem logical to me. I'm not sure, it's still a midfield role afterall and I think it'd be a little too deep for Demba for my liking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Maybe he does want to go 4-4-2 long term Seems strange that he'd try and use this formation now if so though, he's basically playing two players out of position (Jonas and Best) to try it when a 4-4-2 with the same personnel made much more sense. Also, we have a lot of central midfielders for just two roles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 The game passed Jonas by last weekend in the more central role. It's like he was getting in the way of everyone else and not really knowing what to do with himself. Get him to hug the touchline and it's a role he doesn't have to think about, stick him in the middle and he's all at sea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Certainly agree with the Tiote/Cabaye stuff. Cabaye excelled in a 3-man midfield at Lille and Tiote should simply protect the back 4. A great midfield would include a destroyer, a playmaker and an energetic Gerrard-in-his-pomp type. If Graham Carr can find us that third one (and a left back), we can be something special. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I would like to see the system being changed into a 4-3-3/4-5-1 permanently. We certainly now have the personnel to make it really work (tbh Simpson being the long-term option for RB is questionable). It can also give us the option to switch to a 4-4-2 during a game (if necessary). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnes23 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Definitely think 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is the most attractive option when all our players are fit. Wonder if Benjamin Corgnet is lined up as the third midfielder in a potential 4-3-3 for next season? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest je85 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 What I think is important is we now have the type of players that shouldn't be limited to either a formation with 1, 2 or 3 forwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I will say that I think it's mad that we've started doing this when Tiote, Cisse and Ba are away, three of the most important players in our squad for making this work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AY Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I would line the attack almost like in the OP Cisse Ba Hatem Jonas Cabaye Tiote With very attacking minded fullbacks providing the width. Then when defending the formation could be 442 Ba Cisse Jonas Tiote Cabaye Hatem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roger Kint Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 We need another CM to sit in front of Cabaye/Tiote in the long term if we do that formation. Jonas central is nt the answer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 If we could still maintain some genuine width then I'd go with it, my worry with how we're playing at the moment is that teams might be able to neutralise it by just packing the middle of the park and we just try to blindly play through them. All of our wide players like/need to cut inside a lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Either I've been watching a different team or an astonishing amount of people don't recognise the existence of 4-2-3-1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sima Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Shocking lack of Shola in these formations tbh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think Ba does very well in the role where he drops deep to defend and pass but then join the attack. Youtube videos of cisse show he also likes to come deep to pass before attacking the box. On that basis Ba should be number 10, but when attacking 10 and 9 could swap, to unsettle defences. Ben Arfa on the right, Jonas on the left, Marveaux and Obertan backup and Tiote Cabaye deep. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crayola Kid Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 i think the gap has been behind the midfield two in recent weeks, not ahead of them. both guthrie and cabaye are spending too much time just a little further up the pitch than they should, given the advanced positions of the wide men in the 3 of the 4 2 3 1. for me, this system relies on the central two finding defensive positions more quickly when we lose the ball in the oppos half. this is surely why our defence has suddenly looked more vulnerable to fast breaking sides lately? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think it's a good formation if we use it when we have the players who can exploit it. Obviously if you stick Cisse and Ba into last week's team it would look a lot better and no doubt we'd still be in the cup. You pick the formation which suits the players you've got on the pitch as far as I'm concerned and if you have Shola and Best on the pitch then play them up front and whack it towards their heads. Fuck the formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Gosling could potentially excel in the third midfield slot alongside Tiote and Cabaye. As much as I like Guthrie, I do tend to think he's a bit too similar to Cabaye. We'd need someone capable of breaking beyond the forwards and adding another goal threat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingcrofty Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Gosling could potentially excel in the third midfield slot alongside Tiote and Cabaye. As much as I like Guthrie, I do tend to think he's a bit too similar to Cabaye. We'd need someone capable of breaking beyond the forwards and adding another goal threat. Move HBA inside and bring in Obertan! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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