Wullie Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Quick caveat - I hope we always aiming to get as high up the table as possible. But, for those people who think that finishing 8th isn't good enough - what is our 'average' placing in all our years in the top division? I would be surprised if we have actually finished in the top 8 as many times as you would think. I can't, however, be bothered to trawl through every league table to find out. Wikipedia tells me that in the all time Premiership table, we are 8th. Isn't the point of sport to try and do better than 'average'? Yep - I would agree. Hence why I said I hope we are always aiming to do better than 8th. I suppose what I am getting at is that we don't really have a history of being a consistent top 8 club and therefore any expectation that we should be doing better than that is possibly unrealistic. No more unrealistic than Swansea or Wigan being in the Premier League at all but I doubt they'd keep their manager if he suddenly took them down two divisions and tried to claim that's where they're meant to be. Spurs have been a mid-table side nearly my entire life but they've seen the big time once and now won't accept that again. We on the other hand continue to treat fifth place like some sort of magical achievement that we can never aspire to again. It's ludicrous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 8th is unacceptable IMO. Guess that makes me a pessimist. Wish I was one of those optimists that aims for mid table. its ok for me tbh, If we arnt getting champions league, Id rather give EL a miss and try for a domestic cup- imagine that- winning a cup. So would I but that won't happen. I'm still foaming about the Brighton game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Quick caveat - I hope we always aiming to get as high up the table as possible. But, for those people who think that finishing 8th isn't good enough - what is our 'average' placing in all our years in the top division? I would be surprised if we have actually finished in the top 8 as many times as you would think. I can't, however, be bothered to trawl through every league table to find out. Wikipedia tells me that in the all time Premiership table, we are 8th. Isn't the point of sport to try and do better than 'average'? Yep - I would agree. Hence why I said I hope we are always aiming to do better than 8th. I suppose what I am getting at is that we don't really have a history of being a consistent top 8 club and therefore any expectation that we should be doing better than that is possibly unrealistic. No more unrealistic than Swansea or Wigan being in the Premier League at all but I doubt they'd keep their manager if he suddenly took them down two divisions and tried to claim that's where they're meant to be. Spurs have been a mid-table side nearly my entire life but they've seen the big time once and now won't accept that again. We on the other hand continue to treat fifth place like some sort of magical achievement that we can never aspire to again. It's ludicrous. I don't think anyone is treating 5th place as something we can never aspire to again. I just don't know whether it is something that we can expect to achieve on a regular basis. I think above 5th place would be a magical achievement though... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varadi Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 If you accept that Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea are on another level thanks to finances, and Arsenal and Spurs are way ahead of us in the “building sensibly” stakes then I would say our natural level currently is competing with Everton and Liverpool for the 6th-8th slots, which makes 7th about par. So he’s had last season where he finished better than par and this season disastrously below it – think it’s almost certain he’ll be given next season to see which was the fluke… That’s assuming we don’t get relegated and/or go winless until the end of the season in which case he might well get the bullet regardless. And rightly so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 If you accept that Man City, Man Utd and Chelsea are on another level thanks to finances, and Arsenal and Spurs are way ahead of us in the “building sensibly” stakes then I would say our natural level currently is competing with Everton and Liverpool for the 6th-8th slots, which makes 7th about par. So he’s had last season where he finished better than par and this season disastrously below it – think it’s almost certain he’ll be given next season to see which was the fluke… That’s assuming we don’t get relegated and/or go winless until the end of the season in which case he might well get the bullet regardless. And rightly so. That's how I see it as well really. Every club should be reviewing their ambition regularly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 All this talk of 6th/8th 12th is meaningless. We might be happy with it, Ashley might be happy with it, but no player of any ambition is going to want to be with a club that is drifting in the premier. Players like Cabaye and Ben Arfa wouldn't even look at other clubs when they first arrived, but can anyone see them hanging around if we look like going nowhere playing this desperate brand of football? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I still think people are too quick to dismiss talk of him being sacked. It might not be likely right now but if Ashley's proved anything it's that he's unpredictable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I still think people are too quick to dismiss talk of him being sacked. It might not be likely right now but if Ashley's proved anything it's that he's unpredictable. my memory is bad but did many predict the sacking of houghton? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Ray Houghton? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I'm not sure why people are so sure he'll be here next year, most of the points for it can be put down to PR from Ashley and Llambias and discounted by them being ruthless business people with an obsession with value for money. I think he might well get sacked. There's as many value for money arguments to keep him as there are to sack him. No there aren't, this is another misconception that often gets thrown around. The price of sacking one manager and hiring another is pennies compared to the price of failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 What would the price actually be overall if we sack Pardew and bring in a new man, compen, contracts etc? I'm guessing it would safely be under £5m? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 If it was £5m, then at least £4.98m of that would be heading to the new man, cos there is no chance Pardew's payoff is more than a few grand and maybe a six pack of sausage rolls for the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I know it's a different board but Souness should have been sacked as soon as that final whistle went against Chelsea at the end of his first season here. It was obvious he wasn't the right man to take it forward, so instead of that Shepherd decided to back the wrong horse. Where Shepherd failed Ashley needs to succeed and dismiss him after the Arsenal game. As history as shown even if Pardew is backed in the summer window there's no point in doing it if you are backing the wrong horse. January has proved that just because he has been given extra resources at his disposal it doesn't make him a better manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 What would the price actually be overall if we sack Pardew and bring in a new man, compen, contracts etc? I'm guessing it would safely be under £5m? Pardew's pay-off is a year of his contract. So even though the headlines all screamed out about stability due to his eight year deal, in reality it's more like a one year rolling contract. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 What would the price actually be overall if we sack Pardew and bring in a new man, compen, contracts etc? I'm guessing it would safely be under £5m? Pardew's pay-off is a year of his contract. Aye but you have to consider paying off all the backroom staff too no? as Ashley in his infinite wisdom gave Stone, Carver etc etc 8 year contracts too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 TBF Bramble on his day was f***ing excellent. The problem was the other 364 days when he was shit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 TBF Bramble on his day was f***ing excellent. The problem was the other 364 days when he was s***. shocking player. kind of like the pardew of managers on Pardew's day he's quite good. the other 364 days he just imitates a huge turd on the sidelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanSkÃrare Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I know it's a different board but Souness should have been sacked as soon as that final whistle went against Chelsea at the end of his first season here. It was obvious he wasn't the right man to take it forward, so instead of that Shepherd decided to back the wrong horse. Where Shepherd failed Ashley needs to succeed and dismiss him after the Arsenal game. As history as shown even if Pardew is backed in the summer window there's no point in doing it if you are backing the wrong horse. January has proved that just because he has been given extra resources at his disposal it doesn't make him a better manager. That's my worry. Ashley is a novice in these circumstances. Not sure he will recognize what's going on but rather stick with Pardew and hope for better rewards next season. Fully agree in general. It's a breaking point for where we're heading at the moment. There's no way we'll progress under Pardew, it's there for anyone with a bit of understanding about football to see. Unfortunately I'm not convinced Ashley and Llambias possess that understanding yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmk Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 We shouldn't like. If we finished anywhere top half I'd be happy, it just depends if its 10th place 3 seasons in a row. No signs of progression and I'd be displeased. So if we finish 10th this season you'll be happy? Even though we've been atrocious for an entire season and got humiliated by that lot? Exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. This is my whole point, it's not the final league position that matters. As long as the club deliver enough pride, excitement and pleasure over a season I'm not going to worry too much about whether we end up 7th or 10th. The club should be aiming to qualify for Europe though, minimum. Cups look like a far more effective, and more enjoyable route to Europe. See Wigan & Swansea... I'd take a season like Swansea had. I distinctly remember you telling me last season that we shouldn't bother our arse with the cups because we've got no chance! Getting into europe through the cups with Pardew, that's about as likely as scoring a corner. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I still think people are too quick to dismiss talk of him being sacked. It might not be likely right now but if Ashley's proved anything it's that he's unpredictable. I would've said it was virtually impossible a couple of weeks ago but you've got to think at some point they'll figure out that he's not getting the most out of Ashley's investment. Player values will have dropped compared to last season too. You just can't sustain the 'model' under these circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I agreee with tooj, as soon as the final whistle blows on the last game of the season...bin him. be bold and look for someone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I still think people are too quick to dismiss talk of him being sacked. It might not be likely right now but if Ashley's proved anything it's that he's unpredictable. I would've said it was virtually impossible a couple of weeks ago but you've got to think at some point they'll figure out that he's not getting the most out of Ashley's investment. Player values will have dropped compared to last season too. You just can't sustain the 'model' under these circumstances. That's a good point actually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 In hindsight, should've sold Tiote last season when we could've gotten £15-20m for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Maybe £10-15m instead. Regardless, he's certainly worth much less now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Hopefully we won't be saying that after next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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