Alan Pardew

[Stu]

Mick's post pretty much sums it up for me. I don't believe that he's a good manager particularly, and don't think he will improve. We have some good players, playing the least entertaining football in the Premier League. Not only is it horrible to watch, we are in serious danger of being relegated. With any other owner (one who hadn't given his manager a 8 year contract) he'd have been sacked, as have lots of other managers down at the bottom with us.

 

So why didn't Kenwright sack Moyes in the season they finished 17th?

 

moyes has more or less been forced to operate on scraps since he went there, in his first 2-3 years he had nothing like the backing and quality players pardew has had in his time here imo...even young rooney was sold before he had much chance of an impact

 

£8.5m in his first full season

£5m in his second season

£17.5m in his third season (*sold Rooney)

£9m in his fourth season

£15m in his fifth season

£23m in his sixth season

[Pata]

Most of the other Premier League teams seem to manage to win away games without Ben Arfa. We treat it as if it's the only possible way such a feat can be achieved.

 

Not sure how much effect Simpson had in the standard away defeats at Swansea, Wigan and Spurs. Looked pretty much the same without him as it has been with him - losing.

 

Injuries are a lame excuse but we have been hit really hard this season. We've been shite and Pardew has been at fault but the injuries have really played a massive part too.

[mrmojorisin75]

£8.5m in his first full season

£5m in his second season

£17.5m in his third season (*sold Rooney)

£9m in his fourth season

£15m in his fifth season

£23m in his sixth season

 

so as i said, not a lot then really in PL terms....if memory serves they weren't doing too great when he took over either and he didn't have the greatest squad to start with

 

later spending has seen them further up the league challenging for europe every season no?

[Pata]

You could argue that Pardew didn't have the greatest squad either when he took over.

[mrmojorisin75]

You could argue that Pardew didn't have the greatest squad either when he took over.

 

you certainly could

[Stu]

Most of the other Premier League teams seem to manage to win away games without Ben Arfa. We treat it as if it's the only possible way such a feat can be achieved.

 

Not sure how much effect Simpson had in the standard away defeats at Swansea, Wigan and Spurs. Looked pretty much the same without him as it has been with him - losing.

 

The Simpson point was to highlight how the 'depth' of January was no longer present by March. It wasn't to blame him.

 

Going back to that Chelsea game and the 'momentum' we'd generated, lets take that as our 'first choice starting XI' for the rest of the season:

 

vs Chelsea: Krul; Debuchy, Santon, Colocinni, Taylor; PerchTiote, Cabaye; Jonas, Gouffran, Sissoko; Cisse

 

Subbing Tiote for Perch (as I think most people, including Pardew, would do similar if both available), these are the first XI players unavailable:

 

L vs Spurs: n/a

W vs Southampton: Krul

L vs Swansea: Krul, Colocinni

W vs Stoke: Krul, Colocinni

L vs Wigan: Krul, Colocinni, Cabaye, Debuchy*

L vs Man City: Krul, Colocinni, Debuchy, Santon, Tiote

 

Missing the best two defensive players is going to affect any team, particularly one where the manager has spent the last two years getting those two players to carry out his defensive instructions on the field. They're pretty big blows to deal with.

 

Yes, we have had 'international' players to fill in for them, but they've hardly had a settled run in the team, let alone the league/country to suddenly gel with the new players.

 

I think if we lose Krul or Colo, then we suffer but can cope with having Eliott or MYM step in to replace but not both at the same time and the results/performances would suggest similar. The types of goals we've conceded are scruffy, disorganised goals rather than clear cut chances - perhaps suggesting that our general defensive play isn't too bad, but we're failing to communicate very well or individuals aren't doing the basics throughout the match; something that occurs when a back-five isn't settled.

 

To contrast that to the beginning of 2011/12 when we kept things tight, we were playing the same back five (or seven if you include the centre-mids) almost week in, week out. This gave us the platform for our attacking players to get a goal and the away wins.

[mrmojorisin75]

so that's it then Stu, he just gets a pass when the good players are injured?  i see your point but you're steadfastly ignoring the fact that it's his job to work around these things

[Wullie]

If we can only avoid defeat when we have less than two first team injuries, that's a fairly sure fire sign that we will continue to struggle.

 

That simply doesn't happen very often in the modern game. If your confidence that we should win every game apart from Man City was based on us having zero injuries, I can only assume you live on a cloud somewhere, or up a magic beanstalk.

[Zero]

I find it hilarious when people said "with the back of Ashley / with such a talented squad" when the truth is we only have this "tremendous squad" for just 2 months. We are fucking lack of quality covers and we have been fuming at Ashley for not spending his penny and just target for profits. So just 2.5 months after January everybody now said Pardew are wasting the resources.

 

Please.

[merlin]

There is no need of the stray opinions of some posters. Its obvious there is a Pardew "out" is not good enough and a Pardew "In" because he has a good an bad season group.

 

Pardew himself will show you in time who is the fool, couple of crucial games might cut his Pro group out cold or a very Good Season Next will change the Anti fans into Pardew supports.

 

Just hold your hands up when you are the fool. Opinions normally defer but there is always a right and wrong group.

 

The thing is, nobody is right or wrong.  It will not change how bad this season has been if we do well next season and last season will not become worse than it was because of this season.

 

Is he a good manager or a one season wonder?  Some think he's a good manager based on one season while others think he's a poor manager based on what he’s done here and most of his managerial career which has been more lows than highs.  Personally, I've seen very little during his time here to think he can do anything more than stagnate and fluke the odd decent result/league finish.

 

We simply haven’t progressed as a team under him other than our league position last year which was more often than not based on some negative football and tactics.  I know this has been done to death but it shouldn’t be forgotten.  He spends 4 out of 5 days coaching the team to defend and we’re about as bad as it gets in this division, even if somebody on here tries to disregard some goals conceded.  Our defence includes an international keeper, an international left back, an international right back and two international centre backs if fit and played together.  Our midfield can contain 5 international players and our main forward plays for his country.

 

I see no reason to believe that a team which can contain 11 internationals aren’t better than what we’ve seen this season and I’ve seen nothing to make me believe that our manager is playing the type of football that best suits our players.  I don’t think we have a single player who thrives with us sitting back as often as we do and I can only put that down to Pardew. 

 

I would guess that our lowest international player count this season doesn’t go below 50% yet teams who would struggle to field that many on a good day are doing better than we are.

 

I’m sick of the excuses that he and others come out with on his behalf.  We aren’t a team that should be looking to scrape enough points to stay in the division with 7 games remaining and it’s a massive waste of the players in our squad.

 

What is our playing style?  Do we have anything as a team that anybody could call a strength?  I’d fail to answer either of those questions and he’s been here for something like 2 ½ seasons and that’s p*ss poor. 

 

I don’t see anything to suggest that he’s going to change, he’s got a personal comfort zone and he’ll stick to it because it’s all that he knows and that’s a problem because his idea of how football should be played doesn’t match what our players are good at or comfortable with.  He’ll dabble from time to time and it will fail more often than not because the players aren’t used to it under him as we don’t seem to work on it.

 

If we’re going to do well on a constant basis then he’s going to have to change and I’m not sure that he’s capable or comfortable enough to see it through.  If he’s going to change then it will have to be what we work on at the start of the season and we would have to stick with it.  Again, I can’t see any evidence of that being likely to happen and for that reason I will see next season as more than likely being another wasted season if he's still at the club.

 

The excuses used this season by Mr Negativity just don’t add up.  The reasons he uses for excuses aren’t enough for a 5th placed team to become a 15th placed team yet some are falling for it.  If people want to fall for the s*** he comes out with then so be it, ignorance can be bliss but it will not change where we are and how poorly we’ve played.

 

If people think he’s the right manager for us, why?  What makes him right for us?  Don’t use the shitty argument that we can’t do better than him because that’s bollocks.  The argument that he’s going to suddenly have us playing free flowing attacking football is pie in the sky and baseless.

 

 

This is a great post Mick - sums up everything I feel about Pardew as a manager.

I just cannot believe that some people think he's suddenly going to turn into SAF because he had one successful season...and as you say, the football was often awful and we rode our luck spectacularly...we also got lucky with Cisse who almost single-handedly got us into the EL with his goals.

 

As I have said before, I was prepared to give him a chance when he arrived at SJP but I had major reservations about his past record, and I know that former senior members of the club were warned that he would perform exactly as he has, by some of his former employers.

He has shown absolutely NOTHING in either the team tactics and now, frighteningly, in his player motivation, to give anyone confidence that he will improve things, even with a much better squad than we had last season. The number of silly statements he comes out with merely make matters worse and Benfica rammed some of those right back down his throat.

 

As for people quoting Moyes, Kenwright had to stick with him because Everton were much poorer as a club then than we are now - Moyes NEVER had millions thrown at him in his second full season as Pardew has here.

Moyes also had a decent record at PNE before he joined Everton and was a younger manager - there is no comparison in the 2 situations.

[merlin]

 

 

agree- the ones wanting him sacked now will start again with the next manager after 3 or 4 defeats.

 

That would depend on who he was replaced with but carry on being daft in an attempt to justify Pardew by making it look as if people only want shot of him because of 3 or 4 defeats.

 

Nobody - certainly not me - wanted KK out when he came back in 2008 and we struggled in his first 8 games.

We could see what he was trying to get the players to do, and it eventually came good...Pardew has been here for more than 2 years - can anyone see a similar effective and attractive style of play emerging under him...?? If a new manager was showing steady improvement NOBODY would want him out in his first season even if results weren't too great and this squad is capable of MUCH better football than we are seeing now.

Too many players under-achieveing under this regime.

[Stu]

If we can only avoid defeat when we have less than two first team injuries, that's a fairly sure fire sign that we will continue to struggle.

 

That simply doesn't happen very often in the modern game. If your confidence that we should win every game apart from Man City was based on us having zero injuries, I can only assume you live on a cloud somewhere, or up a magic beanstalk.

 

Again, that's twice you've gone putting words into my mouth...I've already corrected you once. I said that we could go on a good run towards the end of the season and that I viewed all of the games (with the exception of Citeh) as winnable games; given the state of the squad after the Chelsea game.

 

We don't just have two first team injuries....we've actually had:

 

L vs Spurs: Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Gouffran*

W vs Southampton: Krul, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Harper (Tiote ill prior to the game)

L vs Swansea: Krul, Colocinni, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Harper (Cisse and Cabaye were both ill prior to the game)

W vs Stoke: Krul, Colocinni, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Ameobi

L vs Wigan: Krul, Colocinni, Cabaye, Debuchy*, Haidaira*, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic

L vs Man City: Krul, Colocinni, Debuchy, Santon, Tiote, Haidaira, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic

 

Injuries are by no means the sole reason for the poor results this season, but they go someway towards putting the season into context and explaining how the same guy (with arguably an improved squad on paper) has gone from a Champions League-chasing side to a 'squeaky bum' side.

[Stu]

so that's it then Stu, he just gets a pass when the good players are injured?  i see your point but you're steadfastly ignoring the fact that it's his job to work around these things

 

Injuries and squad management are part of the game. I would argue that Pardew has been hamstrung somewhat by the latter due to the severity of the former; nevertheless, some of his rotation decisions have been puzzling (to say the least), although I've formerly attributed that to his previous desire to try and keep his 'best striker' at the club.

[mrmojorisin75]

so that's it then Stu, he just gets a pass when the good players are injured?  i see your point but you're steadfastly ignoring the fact that it's his job to work around these things

 

Injuries and squad management are part of the game. I would argue that Pardew has been hamstrung somewhat by the latter due to the severity of the former; nevertheless, some of his rotation decisions have been puzzling (to say the least), although I've formerly attributed that to his previous desire to try and keep his 'best striker' at the club.

 

hm, i agree with you to an extent but there's no doubt in my mind he's failed to do his job in a lot of circumstances...credit for last season seems to be de rigeur atm so credit to him for managing williamson/simpson last season and getting some of the results he did but there's no excuse for this season imo

[Dr Venkman]

The lack of goals from set plays is a big marker of his shortcomings. How hard is it to sort out some imaginative/effective set pieces?

 

What can Pardew do about that? I mean he does them in training but what can he do if the players simply don't score from them/defend them properly in a match?

 

 

What can he do? How about his job

 

 

I was being sarcastic Just using the ridiculous line of reasoning that Pardews lovers

if they are going to call people Pardew "haters"

use to excuse a whole manner of his failings to show how absurd it is.

 

pardew gets an insane amount of leeway from some people like, 3 points off relegation 7 games to go 

 

At the same time, people have quickly written off the fact he took us to the last game of the season away from a Champions League spot.

 

One great season, one shit season. I'm in the camp where I think he has earned the chance to put it right. If we're still struggling come October or November next season, he deserves to be sacked. If we're back challenging the top 6, we were right to stand by him.

 

agree- the ones wanting him sacked now will start again with the next manager after 3 or 4 defeats.

 

Bollocks.

 

 

 

Tbf I don't think I can blamed for thinking you meant it, given the tone of your recent posts.

 

I'd love to know what is giving people optimism that Pardew's going to change his outlook and start turning us into a team just because it's a new season. He's not going to change, those hoping for a better season next year are just hoping for less injuries imo.

[Optimistic Nut]

He was within a whisker of taking a team who had a strike force of Ameobi, Lovenkrands, Best, Ranger & Kuqi to a top 10 finish (I know Hughton started the good work that season but he had Carroll), and then got us top 6 in his first full season.

 

He's been crap this season, I just think he deserves a bit of a chance to put it right.

[Rebellious]

If we can only avoid defeat when we have less than two first team injuries, that's a fairly sure fire sign that we will continue to struggle.

 

That simply doesn't happen very often in the modern game. If your confidence that we should win every game apart from Man City was based on us having zero injuries, I can only assume you live on a cloud somewhere, or up a magic beanstalk.

 

Again, that's twice you've gone putting words into my mouth...I've already corrected you once. I said that we could go on a good run towards the end of the season and that I viewed all of the games (with the exception of Citeh) as winnable games; given the state of the squad after the Chelsea game.

 

We don't just have two first team injuries....we've actually had:

 

L vs Spurs: Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Gouffran*

W vs Southampton: Krul, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Harper (Tiote ill prior to the game)

L vs Swansea: Krul, Colocinni, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Harper (Cisse and Cabaye were both ill prior to the game)

W vs Stoke: Krul, Colocinni, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Ameobi

L vs Wigan: Krul, Colocinni, Cabaye, Debuchy*, Haidaira*, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic

L vs Man City: Krul, Colocinni, Debuchy, Santon, Tiote, Haidaira, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic

 

Injuries are by no means the sole reason for the poor results this season, but they go someway towards putting the season into context and explaining how the same guy (with arguably an improved squad on paper) has gone from a Champions League-chasing side to a 'squeaky bum' side.

 

If we get a Second actual striker this summer and maybe a third. Combine that with Cisse not taking until April to actually find some form and few a others finding any at all. Add to that no Europe, ie more  than 1 day for coaching and tactics for each match. If this happens and we are still shit and lower than say 12th then he has to go. At the moment he has far too many excuses. He isn`t good enough to work through a crisis but we all knew that when he was appointed, at the same time he has done far better even now than we all expected.

[Cronky]

I've not come across any rumours about the players being unhappy with Pardew or the training, and we're still able to attract players. From the point of view of the future, we can take encouragement from that.

 

If I was to point to one significant error that he made this season, it was not sorting out the Ba-Cisse problem before the season started. We wasted a lot of time over that.

[Mick]

You're the one who stated that any other owner would have sacked his manager for being "down at the bottom with us" - the Moyes example is one that contradicts your claim (and has been mentioned recently in the thread).

 

I don't think anyone has argued that we're playing beautiful football this season. Not sure why you're throwing that straw man about.

 

Some of us see a benefit for the club in adopting a culture of giving managers 3+ seasons before deciding if they're going to get a longer spell. It may well turn out that Pardew is as limited as many on here are claiming and that last season was a freak set of results; however, by moving away from the knee-jerk culture of the past decade surely makes us a more attractive position for a bold, up and coming manager who knows he'll need a couple of seasons to get the playing squad playing exactly how he likes it?

 

Chopping and changing didn't do us any favours under Shepherd; it certainly didn't do us any favours under Ashley (2009), so why keep pushing this strategy now?

 

Of course, we wouldn't need to change managers if the people in charge appointed the 'right one' first time around...but then, if it was that easy, every team would be doing it.

 

Chopping and changing wasn't really the problem under Shepherd, other than sacking Bobby Robson, he got the others right.  What Shepherd was shit as was appointing the right manager and that's basically why he had to sack them.  As far as I'm concerned he got one sacking wrong, on the other side of that he got all but one, possibly two at a stretch, of his appointments wrong.

 

Dalglish was rightly sacked and he's since shown that he was finished before we got him with his sacking at Liverpool and Celtic where he was D of F and manager for a time when they sacked the equally hopeless John Barnes.

 

The appointment of Souness was mind boggling and replacing him with Roeder was the work of a lazy bastard taking an easy option.  Allardyce was probably a good appointment to work under the conditions that were present after Souness had been bailed out and allowed to spend £50 million on mainly shit value players.

 

Comparing our position to Everton is crazy, they didn’t have a pot to piss in when they appointed Moyes and they were almost certainly going down when they appointed Moyes who was doing really well as Preston.  His record as a manager was one of success as he’d taken over a struggling Preston and had improved them year after year.  Moyes hadn’t almost relegated West Ham, he hadn’t relegated Charlton and he hadn’t been sacked by third division Southampton who then flourished after binning him.  When Moyes finished 1 place above relegation at Everton it was his first spell in his managerial career where he’d taken a club backwards so for him it was a blip, not the norm.

 

Him spending £8.5 million in first full season was chicken feed at the time, during that same period we spent £23 million on Viana, Bramble, Woodgate and Ambrose so it’s not comparing like for like.  We were signing up and coming players while Moyes was forced to sign players from Netto because of financial restraints.  They were struggling on and off the pitch and Kenwright had just come into the club because of the state they were in financially.

[mrmojorisin75]

now mick, let's not let reality get in the way of a good supporting argument for pardiola

[Mick]

He was within a whisker of taking a team who had a strike force of Ameobi, Lovenkrands, Best, Ranger & Kuqi to a top 10 finish (I know Hughton started the good work that season but he had Carroll), and then got us top 6 in his first full season.

 

He's been crap this season, I just think he deserves a bit of a chance to put it right.

 

We look like we could be closer to relegation with a team that has included Krul, Debuchy, Mbiwa, Santon, Cabaye, Sissoko, Ben Arfa, Coloccini, Anita, Cisse, Goufran, Ba, Marveaux  and Tiote. 

[Ronaldo]

A few of which have looked like players not fit for this league this season. Others have barely played.

[Guest neesy111]

I think quite a few are really overrating out squad tbh.

[Mick]

A few of which have looked like players not fit for this league this season. Others have barely played.

 

So much for his managerial ability, is that supposed to make him look better?

[Mick]

I think quite a few are really overrating out squad tbh.

 

Yes, we're overrating our trophy winning international players.