Pardew Out?

[Guest icemanblue]

Wow.

 

This thread.

 

 

He's earned his chance to correct the slump. I have full faith that he will.

 

"full faith"? I find that very hard to believe.

 

Yeah I do. He's far too dedicated to this 442 and keeping Ba happy, but he's proved that he can get these players performing very well and I don't see any reason why he can't do it again.

 

That being said, if we're still showing no signs of improvement in 7 or 8 games I probably won't feel the same.

 

Yep, exactly.

[Dr Venkman]

 

Pardew's tactics are questionable, but the players are making the basics look impossible. Stuff like movement, we're so static at the moment yet their is space to run into quite often, yet the players seem incapable of doing it. I cant for the life of me think Pardew is advising them this. They are professional footballers, and in my view you can only blame so much on tactics and formations if players are refusing to get the absolute fundamentals right.

 

But we know from watching us last season (and this) that Pardew teams aren't about movement, they're about staying in position (ie the opposite of moving) keeping it tight and hoping for a front man to produce a bit of magic. We've seen it with our own eyes and we've heard it from coaching staff and players as well, you shouldn't blame the players for following the managers instructions.

 

I don't mean deviating from position, free roles etc. I'm talking about pockets of space between opponents that all players look for and get into before getting the ball. 4 or 5 yards. Not exactly going against the managers words that, its just natural.

 

The only players doing this yesterday were Santon and Anita. Everyone else just stood still.

 

If it's natural for players to do it (and it is) then the absence of movement tells me that they're being told not to move, surely? You only have to have watched us play for the last two years to see that's the way Pardew wants it.

[Stuy_O]

Well its either that what you say, or the players are so low on confidence and are scared to express themselves on the field.

 

I'm still struggling to get my head round the fact that staff instructions are making us THIS rubbish. If so then we're in a bit of bother.

[Neil]

The Moyes/Pardew comparison has one major flaw - if Moyes played a pretty direct style for a while it's because those were the type of players he was working with. Pardew is trying to play direct football with a squad of flair players. There's a worrying lack of understanding as to how to get the best out of some very decent players, far more than Everton had, and IMO we still have a squad which is equal to, if not better than Everton's.

 

Can't be arsed with the individual player comparisons but it's safe to say the squads are of a very similar quality, on paper. Both lack real strength in depth, as well. (As a brief aside, I wouldn't go overboard on us. We've won once in the last 7 games, dropping points game after game against relegation candidates - so we've got a lot of work to do to be considered genuine top 4 contenders, as people would have us made out as.)

 

The bit in bold though rings particularly true. When you're working with the likes of Pistone, Naysmith, Kilbane, Weir, Stubbs, Gravesen, Carsley, Marcus Bent, Big Dunc and other such footballing artists, you're probably going to get scrappy, direct football. And up to a point I'm in full support of that. Moyes has been given the chance to change the style over numerous years, taking us from regular relegation candidates to regular European contenders, and around 2007ish, I felt we were really improving as a football team. Indeed most of the media and lazy pundits would consistently have you believe we were nothing more than a hard working side up until even last year, when in fact we've generally played some good stuff for a number of years now. That's only come about because one man has been able to imprint his own philosophy on the club and has fostered a very good team spirit, coming about because of the momentum we've built over the seasons. Momentum has come from stability.

 

But back to the point; when you have talented footballers like Cabaye, Ben Arfa and so on and insist on playing long balls, it makes no sense. Perhaps Pardew in some way thought that consolidating last year's efforts meant becoming more direct, more defensive, more "safe". This of course is a ludicrous mentality to have and very damaging to boot, it regresses progress. You don't move forward as a club by standing still. Standing still is, essentially, like regression. Other teams improve, and you get left behind.

 

Last year was not a fluke. You didn't finish above 15 other teams just by being lucky. You do it because you develop a system suited to the players, and in particular a system that brings the best out of your best players i.e. Ba/Cisse, Ben Arfa, Cabaye. It's baffling he isn't having a go with the same 4-3-3 that brought you so much joy last year. Is it all just so Ba can play up top? It makes little to no sense. I don't, fwiw, think 4-4-2 is as shit a formation as the footballing world seems to make out. It can still work very well, if you have 2 genuine wingers on each side. I wouldn't call Jonas or Ben Arfa traditional wingers however - especially as sticking Ben Arfa solely out wide takes away so much from his game. So everything points to a 4-3-3, with Ba, Cisse and Ben Arfa up front with - I assume - Cabaye, Tiote and Anita in some combination in midfield? Or a 4-2-3-1 with a very similar set up.

 

Injuries play a part, sure, but they don't account for going from the 5th best team in the league to losing to West Ham and Swansea at home and then Southampton. This whole "well we had a game on Thursday" stuff is infuriating to hear as a fan as well. Don't insult fans' intelligence with crap like that, especially after seeing a performance where it was clear the team just wasn't good enough to win.

 

For all the ifs, buts and speculation though, I firmly think it would be ridiculous to get rid of him so soon. It's not sentimental to say that he deserves a chance to pull things around, and not getting rid at the first sign of trouble. What's to say the grass will be greener on the other side? The main thing, from my POV anyway from watching you play this year, is that Pardew needs to worry a lot less about what the opposition might do, and spend more time getting more out of your own talented players, and give the opposition something to worry about.

[Hanshithispantz]

I'm not sure if I even want him to turn it around tbh, as pathetic as that sounds. I do like the guy and I don't want him to leave on bad terms either, but I look at a team like Fulham who are playing far more expressive and entertaining football than us because they have a manager who isn't scared to do so. If Pardew was at the helm at Craven Cottage you would have Brede Hangeland hoofing the ball up to Dimi and Petric with Brian Ruiz stuck in his own 1/3.

[KaKa]

This 4-3-3 thing is so upsetting. He was practically denying that he ever played 4-3-3 just last week. Why is he so scared of lining up that way?

 

Can this really be down to Ba? It's incredible really.

[Mick]

 

Agree with you there, all the latest info suggests that the players basically love Pardew. Obviously they will be having a tough time at the moment, but I think people are choosing to argue he has lost the dressing room without any evidence.

 

A couple of wins and things will turn around, the question is whether we can grind them out.

 

Losing the dressing room can go in a few ways. 

 

Sometimes managers lose it and players ignore them and start spitting dummies out and going to the press with snide comments. 

 

Other times it's simply that players fail to respond to what the manager is asking of them.  They might still like him but lose respect for them and no longer react to them and that's the way I think Pardew will lose it, if he does.  If they don’t believe in his brand of football then he’s going to struggle to get any positive reaction from them.  Partly because he’s got rid of players who would try and control the dressing room.  Things went well last season so he didn’t need an ego in the dressing room to help him, he could do with one now because he’s a lone voice.

 

I think he's close to being unable to get anything from the players, I think he's close to being unable to lift them and get performances out of them.  In the past a manager could get around that by bringing in one or two fresh faces in to give the players a lift but with transfer windows we'll have to wait until January.

 

We’re seeing very little fight from our players and even somebody who is as good as Krul is dropping bollocks which look lazy.  It’s as if he’s got absolutely no confidence in what he’s doing and he’s the keeper.  The keeper who has a simple role to play in the team looks like he’s shot to pieces so if he’s feeling like that how are the other players feeling and what is going to lift them?

 

It’s easy to say they are paid a fortune so should play better, that’s too simplistic and a load of bollocks.  Players are like all of us and need motivation, ours haven’t got any and that’s down to the way we’re playing.  Shit football isn’t motivating them and neither is Pardew because of the way he’s asking them to go about their jobs and he’s running out of time.

 

I would guess that he’s asking them to do certain things and if he wants a reaction he’s going to have to lose it with them and do a Fergie and start throwing things around the dressing room.  People do things for one of two reasons, they either want to do it, or they have to do it.  The first one isn’t happening so he’s going to have to force them.

 

If that goes wrong he’ll piss them all off and then he’s finished here.  At the minute he’s probably lost some of the players but I’ve seen no signs that he’s lost the dressing room which will be catastrophic for him if he does lose it.

 

[TRon]

The Moyes/Pardew comparison has one major flaw - if Moyes played a pretty direct style for a while it's because those were the type of players he was working with. Pardew is trying to play direct football with a squad of flair players. There's a worrying lack of understanding as to how to get the best out of some very decent players, far more than Everton had, and IMO we still have a squad which is equal to, if not better than Everton's.

 

Can't be arsed with the individual player comparisons but it's safe to say the squads are of a very similar quality, on paper. Both lack real strength in depth, as well. (As a brief aside, I wouldn't go overboard on us. We've won once in the last 7 games, dropping points game after game against relegation candidates - so we've got a lot of work to do to be considered genuine top 4 contenders, as people would have us made out as.)

 

The bit in bold though rings particularly true. When you're working with the likes of Pistone, Naysmith, Kilbane, Weir, Stubbs, Gravesen, Carsley, Marcus Bent, Big Dunc and other such footballing artists, you're probably going to get scrappy, direct football. And up to a point I'm in full support of that. Moyes has been given the chance to change the style over numerous years, taking us from regular relegation candidates to regular European contenders, and around 2007ish, I felt we were really improving as a football team. Indeed most of the media and lazy pundits would consistently have you believe we were nothing more than a hard working side up until even last year, when in fact we've generally played some good stuff for a number of years now. That's only come about because one man has been able to imprint his own philosophy on the club and has fostered a very good team spirit, coming about because of the momentum we've built over the seasons. Momentum has come from stability.

 

But back to the point; when you have talented footballers like Cabaye, Ben Arfa and so on and insist on playing long balls, it makes no sense. Perhaps Pardew in some way thought that consolidating last year's efforts meant becoming more direct, more defensive, more "safe". This of course is a ludicrous mentality to have and very damaging to boot, it regresses progress. You don't move forward as a club by standing still. Standing still is, essentially, like regression. Other teams improve, and you get left behind.

 

Last year was not a fluke. You didn't finish above 15 other teams just by being lucky. You do it because you develop a system suited to the players, and in particular a system that brings the best out of your best players i.e. Ba/Cisse, Ben Arfa, Cabaye. It's baffling he isn't having a go with the same 4-3-3 that brought you so much joy last year. Is it all just so Ba can play up top? It makes little to no sense. I don't, fwiw, think 4-4-2 is as shit a formation as the footballing world seems to make out. It can still work very well, if you have 2 genuine wingers on each side. I wouldn't call Jonas or Ben Arfa traditional wingers however - especially as sticking Ben Arfa solely out wide takes away so much from his game. So everything points to a 4-3-3, with Ba, Cisse and Ben Arfa up front with - I assume - Cabaye, Tiote and Anita in some combination in midfield? Or a 4-2-3-1 with a very similar set up.

 

Injuries play a part, sure, but they don't account for going from the 5th best team in the league to losing to West Ham and Swansea at home and then Southampton. This whole "well we had a game on Thursday" stuff is infuriating to hear as a fan as well. Don't insult fans' intelligence with crap like that, especially after seeing a performance where it was clear the team just wasn't good enough to win.

 

For all the ifs, buts and speculation though, I firmly think it would be ridiculous to get rid of him so soon. It's not sentimental to say that he deserves a chance to pull things around, and not getting rid at the first sign of trouble. What's to say the grass will be greener on the other side? The main thing, from my POV anyway from watching you play this year, is that Pardew needs to worry a lot less about what the opposition might do, and spend more time getting more out of your own talented players, and give the opposition something to worry about.

 

Thanks Neil, much as I suspected. When Moyes has struggled some seasons it's because of injuries to a key players in a fairly small squad, otherwise he's used his players fairly intelligently. My beef with Pardew is that he hasn't, and for a manager there's not much of a bigger indictment as that's the main part of his job. Still, I hope he turns it around, I just hope we don't start losing players while trying to justify keeping him here.

[Mick]

And for everyone saying that they complained about our performances last year when we were eking out wins, where was the bitching when we finished fifth? The performances, whether they were fun to watch or not, got us fifth and there wasn't a soul on here who wasn't jerking off about finishing fifth. Lets start winning again and see where it takes us.

 

Can you not be unhappy with one while not unhappy with the other?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I don't think he has lost the dressing room but a good number of our players are cutting frustrated figures and are increasingly losing their discipline if you like as a result. Colo has become a nasty bugger for example and is remonstrating a lot with refs and the opposition which isn't his style. Ba is constantly throwing his arms up in the air and asking for fouls or giving fouls away and Ben Arfa is constantly trying to do things all on his own. The players know they are not performing and that our position in the table isn't good enough but try as hard as they may and they do try hard, things aren't improving. Indeed things are getting worse and that is where the manager comes in. The players are trying their best to help him by working hard and playing to his instructions etc. but Pardew's methods and tactics are killing them. He now needs to help them.

 

He needs to ditch the ubber match preparation bollocks, get them working on pass and move and getting at teams and he needs to find a system or formation that gets the best out of our better players or rather allows our better players to perform to their true abilities. And he needs to stick at this and keep encouraging this. This side doesn't need much tactical coaching at all, it needs freed from the manager's over bearing dominance when it comes to tactics, team shape, system etc.

 

Concentrate on defence Alan, work on the pressing game and team shape off the ball, which he has demonstrated he is quite good at. The attacking side though.... I trust our attacking players more than Pardew when it comes to attacking so let them fucking play basically.

[Zero]

I really can't help but to think Ba is a fucking troublesome player to deal with, due to his clause.  He is undroppable (we all witnessed that) and he demands to play at centre or will be off in the next transfer window. It is a no-win situation for the manager. Well probably dropping Cisse to the bench and play Ba as the lone striker is the only answer, but then it would be Cisse' turn to be pissed off.

 

I am serious, Ba is a trouble maker. He is fucking selfish and always make crazy long shots ignoring the teammates around. I am very disappointed that Pardew is not brave enough to axe him, despite lots of fans would be calling for his head.  If Pardew goes I hope the next manager would do it.  Who cares the 7m clause if the player cause so much troubles to the squad.

[Mick]

 

 

 

He's earned his chance to correct the slump. I have full faith that he will.

 

You probably had full faith in the slump not even happening. 

[KaKa]

I don't think he has lost the dressing room but a good number of our players are cutting frustrated figures and are increasingly losing their discipline if you like as a result. Colo has become a nasty bugger for example and is remonstrating a lot with refs and the opposition which isn't his style. Ba is constantly throwing his arms up in the air and asking for fouls or giving fouls away and Ben Arfa is constantly trying to do things all on his own. The players know they are not performing and that our position in the table isn't good enough but try as hard as they may and they do try hard, things aren't improving. Indeed things are getting worse and that is where the manager comes in. The players are trying their best to help him by working hard and playing to his instructions etc. but Pardew's methods and tactics are killing them. He now needs to help them.

 

He needs to ditch the ubber match preparation bollocks, get them working on pass and move and getting at teams and he needs to find a system or formation that gets the best out of our better players or rather allows our better players to perform to their true abilities. And he needs to stick at this and keep encouraging this. This side doesn't need much tactical coaching at all, it needs freed from the manager's over bearing dominance when it comes to tactics, team shape, system etc.

 

Concentrate on defence Alan, work on the pressing game and team shape off the ball, which he has demonstrated he is quite good at. The attacking side though.... I trust our attacking players more than Pardew when it comes to attacking so let them f***ing play basically.

 

Pardew definitely comes across as an overbearing sort, that would have them thinking too much out there.

 

What you talk about is something Harry Redknapp figured out eons ago, when it comes to attacking, give them the freedom to do so.

 

Everyone hails Harry as some genius, but his true talent is the fact he's just not an uptight control freak.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Super post, Neil.

[Guest ItalianMagpie]

Am I the only one to think that we were playing shitty football last season too? We finished 5th cause everything went the right way, and first Ba then Cissè just couldn't stop scoring, and it looked like every ball they touched ended up in the back of the net. But the overall performance was very poor more often than not, with few exceptions.

It's pretty obvious that if you play like that and create only a couple of chances a game you need to convert them at something near 100% rate, and this is just not happening (while it happened last season).

We need to risk more and create more, but Pardew's never going to do that cause he still believes we are defensively solid, which is clearly a joke, and want to take advantage of that.

After a few games since he came in I've been having bad feeling about us, and despite the wins and the great season last year I can't say I didn't see this coming.

[Neil]

Am I the only one to think that we were playing shitty football last season too? We finished 5th cause everything went the right way, and first Ba then Cissè just couldn't stop scoring, and it looked like every ball they touched ended up in the back of the net. But the performance was very poor more often than not, with few exceptions.

It's pretty obvious that if you play like that and create only a couple of chances a game you need to convert them with something near 100% rate, and this is just not happening (while it happened last season).

We need to risk more and create more, but Pardew's never going to do that cause he still believes we are defensively solid, which is clearly a joke, and want to take advantage of that.

After a few games since he came in I've been having bad feeling about us, and despite the wins and the great season last year I can't say I didn't see this coming.

 

In individual games it seemed you were "edging out" opponents and not really dominating games (with some notable exceptions). However, the fact you did this on a regular basis tells me there was a clear, workable system in place which allowed your best players to flourish. The manager should take some credit for that. However, it seems that is not present this season and now average performances are being punished. That's not to say you didn't play well last year because that's far from the truth. But if you have a system designed around your players and not the other way round, then it's possible for you perhaps not to play that well but still get good results.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I work in Liverpool a lot and a lot of Everton fans I've spoken to pretty much to a person would have happily swapped Moyes a long long time ago and would not constitute where they have finished every season under him as some kind of stability equals success bollocks. In short for his 8 years or how ever long he has been there, he hasn't really achieved anything. They are still the club they are when he took over and probably always will be. That is largely down to finances of course and the same applies to NUFC. There is a ceiling for clubs like us and that's top 6 and perhaps the odd top 4 finish. I believe we can finish up there regularly though or should be finishing 6th at the least and why not. We did so last season but don't look like doing so this and that's not acceptable or should be on any level.

 

Back to Moyes, he has shown he can change his tactics and philosophies and marry that to what he has available and get results and importantly performances on a consistent basis and that's probably why his tenure has been largely acceptable to many Evertonians even though I guarantee when they were starting last season like they were, many would have gladly swapped him if given the choice and would do so should they tail off massively this season.

 

That's the nature of the beast. Why should anyone put up with mediocrity, especially at big clubs like Newcastle and Everton. Why should we not look at that 6th place in the table and think do you know what, we can grab that every season or should look to just like Arsenal look to finish in the top 4 and Man Utd the top 2.

 

What pisses me off more about this season and our shitty tactics is the team we have, we really do have a team capable of finishing in the top 6 not just the once but regularly and because of where we finished last season we had that small window of opportunity to perhaps kick on even more, towards a CL place but the sheer lack of ambition and our cowardly tactics have put paid to that.

 

We will lose Be Arfa et al in the summer or even before and we will have to start all the way back from scratch again. Back to mid-table mediocrity once more. Again. And that's when football and NUFC becomes almost like a chore and apathy sets in.

[KaKa]

What kind of player was Pardew, a gritty, scrappy midfielder.

 

These sorts always have a complex about flair players, and playing an attractive attacking style of football.

 

He continues to seek affirmation for the type of game he was able to play.

 

He needs to get over it tbh. It's not the worlds fault he had to struggle his whole career wth his limited abilities.

 

You can't convince the world that this functional, hardworking, fighting football is for everyone.

 

Why would anyone hire a manger who played in such a way as a player?

 

What a coincidence that Laudrup's team plays the way they do right?

 

Fed up tbh.

 

 

[Robster]

I'm sure the Blackburn away game (League) will make interesting reading if we go back to it

[ponsaelius]

I don't think there's a distinct correlation between the type of player somebody was and the type of manager they become, tbh.

[Mick]

I'm sure the Blackburn away game (League) will make interesting reading if we go back to it

 

Link?

[piggelbet]

http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,91524.0.html

[Mick]

I don't think there's a distinct correlation between the type of player somebody was and the type of manager they become, tbh.

 

I'm not sure either way, I can understand a manager doing what he knows more about and probably feels safe doing it that way.

[jdckelly]

or just the period between the end of our unbeaten run and the man u 3-0 because we were dogshit then

[KaKa]

I don't think there's a distinct correlation between the type of player somebody was and the type of manager they become, tbh.

 

I'm in a foul mood today, and people keep wanting to talk about football. Just feel like ranting!