Manchester United

[simonsays]

1 hour ago, Froggy said:

 

Because Ten Hag wants versatile, attacking full backs. AWB wasn't versatile and he couldn't attack. 

 

Still really liked him mind.

The two you are using currently seemingly can't defend

[Froggy]

46 minutes ago, Abacus said:

 

Ace posts thread here we come.

 

Please don't encourage him.

[Pixelphish]

I genuinely love Kaka. The forum would be lesser without him.

[Abacus]

3 hours ago, Pixelphish said:

I genuinely love Kaka. The forum would be lesser without him.

 

Agreed. Adds so much.

 

Edit - so many players I know nothing about that he's prepared to champion, never afraid to express an opinion either. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2024 by Abacus

[Froggy]

A lot of you probably won't care, but I'm going to do a serious post this morning. This is the Manchester United thread and I want to vomit some words on the game because I'm still annoyed about it.

 

I see a lot of people claiming that Casemiro's play is a result of the system, and that the defeat is down to the manager. I know some of these comments are just banter and people are enjoying when we lose, but a lot of people genuinely believe that, and I'm a bit shocked by it. They also don't believe that Ugarte will solve this problem despite Ugarte being a midfield destroyer who plays the simple pass, i.e. exactly what we need.

 

Before Liverpool had scored, Casemiro had already given the ball away more than any player on the pitch. Just not acceptable for your defensive midfielder. At that point we had more possession, more shots, more shots on target, more passes, more tackles won etc. Casemiro was continuing to give the ball away and Liverpool were growing more and more into the game.

 

I've watched this game back quite a bit. A lot of will find this funny, but I genuinely don't think we played that bad, despite a horrific result. We've played much, much worse in the last 12 months and come away with victories. We created a lot of good chances, and our mistakes were punished badly by some ridiculously clinical finishing. Not the biggest fan of xG, and I use it tongue in cheek most days, but the game xG was: Man Utd (1.52) 0-3 (1.50) Liverpool. A more eye opening xG was Joshua Zirkzee (1.08) 0-2 (0.31) Luis Diaz.

 

Anyway, on to Casemiro. I've seen opposition fans make excuses for him. But there were no excuses. He was under little to no pressure for the vast majority of his errors, and 9 times out of 10 he passed it directly to them. 

 

Took some screenshots from a replay I watched. See below:

 

Under slight pressure here, but passes it directly to directly to Robertson, and Liverpool counter.

 

Under zero pressure here, passes it directly to Van Dijk when Martinez, Dalot, Rashford and even Bruno are in acres of space. I've seen criticism aimed at Ten Hag because of how attacking the full backs are and that they're not available for the pass. That's not true. They step inside and are almost always available, especially Dalot

 

Under some pressure here, but nothing he shouldn't be able to deal with. He lets the ball get away from him, and clatters into Mac Allister, giving away a free kick.

 

Under a bit of pressure here, but passes straight to Van Dijk and Liverpool counter. 

 

Under no real pressure and instead of going long here or looking for a pass, he inexplicably holds on to the ball allowed the opposition to close, and he tries to turn the Liverpool player and inevitably loses it. Liverpool counter.

 

It's still 0-0 at this point by the way.

 

Receives the ball in this position under a bit of pressure, and isn't aware of the Liverpool player behind him. Loses the ball, but De Ligt recovers it

 

Under no pressure whatsoever, passes to directly to Gravenberch, Liverpool counter and score.

 

Receives the ball here under pressure, Zirkzee has his hands out calling for it but Casemiro hangs on to it, loses it, Liverpool counter and score.

 

And his last action of the half, is to receive a throw in and pass it directly out of play instead of back to Mazraouri who is completely free.

/spoiler]

 

Casemiro second half highlights:

[Froggy]

Also guys, I'm happy at this point to admit that Isak was a better signing than Casemiro.

[Guest]

Ah the daily Froggy aneurysm

[RodneyCisse]

It’s only Wednesday Froggy and you’ve got Southampton next to put it all right.

[Cronky]

Man U still seem stuck in a pattern of impatience, where they make signings who aren't significantly better than the players they've already got. Our club has been criticised, from inside and outside our ranks, for not bringing in more players, but the more I think about it, the more I feel Eddie is right to hold his nerve.

 

Having said that, I think Ugarte will prove to be a good signing. He'll be a round peg in a round hole.

[Zero]

You really shouldn’t have that much expectation on Ugarte. I know you want to illustrate the system is fine and it’s just Casemiro who made it look problematic. But then if one of the best DM in the world still unable to perform well in such a system, questions should be asked.

 

I also find it funny that people tried to make Casemiro / ETH as the scrap goat, intentionally left Mainoo out of the conversation. To me Mainoo was equally bad. 

[Bimpy474]

 

8 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Also guys, I'm happy at this point to admit that Isak was a better signing than Casemiro.

 

At this point 

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, Zero said:

You really shouldn’t have that much expectation on Ugarte. I know you want to illustrate the system is fine and it’s just Casemiro who made it look problematic. But then if one of the best DM in the world still unable to perform well in such a system, questions should be asked.

 

I also find it funny that people tried to make Casemiro / ETH as the scrap goat, intentionally left Mainoo out of the conversation. To me Mainoo was equally bad. 

 

Oh the system has issues, it requires everything to be perfect. I'm not in any way saying the system doesn't carry blame for the play over the last 12 months, but it's looked a lot more compact early this season, and it's been individual mistakes that have cost us the games.

 

Mainoo was fully at fault for the third goal as well, but I'm not going to start tearing apart a 19 year old in his first full season. He's clearly an excellent player, but he shouldn't be starting every week and being relied on as much as he is. 

[Froggy]

12 minutes ago, OCK said:

Ah the daily Froggy aneurysm

 

Hope you had a good birthday yesterday Chris!

[Zero]

I do agree that Man Utd wasn’t that bad before the first goal. Liverpool's pressing was insane and Man Utd successfully broke through it and created several chances. With a bit of luck Man Utd might be able to score first and prevented such a heavy loss. It was not that one-sided

 

the problem, however, is that this is exactly what Liverpool wanted to happen. They know their attackers are more clinical and as the new bald explained, they studied Man Utd’s build up pattern and hence able to exploit it. So that means even if the game was rematches, Liverpool 99% will still get the 3 points.

 

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by Zero

[Groundhog63]

All that needs to happen now is Ugarte to pull a hammie this week. *

 

 

 

 

 

 

* FAO fate/karma gods, I don't really mean it

[KaKa]

43 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

Oh the system has issues, it requires everything to be perfect. I'm not in any way saying the system doesn't carry blame for the play over the last 12 months, but it's looked a lot more compact early this season, and it's been individual mistakes that have cost us the games.

 

Mainoo was fully at fault for the third goal as well, but I'm not going to start tearing apart a 19 year old in his first full season. He's clearly an excellent player, but he shouldn't be starting every week and being relied on as much as he is. 

 

I don't understand why Casemiro is the one taking the responsibility of progressing the ball from the back.

 

Should Mainoo not be the one tasked with doing this between the two? Why is that still not clear up till now, despite all the mistakes Casemiro has made and still keeps making?

 

There just doesn't seem to be a clear plan or pattern of play there.

 

On top of that, I'm not even sure if Mainoo is fully up to that level of responsibility. He seems to have been handed the keys a bit too soon.

 

Bringing in another centre mid that could distribute from midfield would have been the way to go to take pressure off him. Eriksen is there still I guess, but he doesn't have the legs for midfield and is not great defensively.

 

Think the midfield is hurting you defensively as they get run by easily and they hurt you going forward as the build up from the back is unconvincing.

 

Ugarte will help defensively. Will be interesting to see if things will improve going forward too. He'll naturally play it to Mainoo more and it will then be up to him to initiate things.

[Froggy]

9 minutes ago, KaKa said:

I don't understand why Casemiro is the one taking the responsibility of progressing the ball from the back.

 

This is where the line is drawn as to whether it's a coaching issue or not. I don't think Casemiro is being tasked with that, but I think he's taking it upon himself. It's common sense that Casemiro should be giving the ball to Mainoo or Fernandes, but that's not happening. I just can't see that being Ten Hag's instruction.

 

Ten Hag normally stands by players in the team, so Casemiro being hooked at half time is a bit telling.

 

Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything else you've said.

[KaKa]

18 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

This is where the line is drawn as to whether it's a coaching issue or not. I don't think Casemiro is being tasked with that, but I think he's taking it upon himself. It's common sense that Casemiro should be giving the ball to Mainoo or Fernandes, but that's not happening. I just can't see that being Ten Hag's instruction.

 

Ten Hag normally stands by players in the team, so Casemiro being hooked at half time is a bit telling.

 

Other than that, I agree with pretty much everything else you've said.

 

The weird thing is Casemiro has been doing this for a while and so if it's not the instruction and he's doing something he shouldn't be, then he should not be playing and should have been sent packing in the summer.

 

There were some really good solid midfielders in the last year of their deals this summer, that went for relative peanuts in Fofana from Monaco and Thuram from Nice, both moved for around £20 million. I cannot believe you didn't end up with at least one of them.

 

For what it's worth I won't be surprised if you end up signing Rabiot in the next few weeks.

 

I think you need more options in there that can complement both Ugarte and Mainoo.

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2024 by KaKa

[Joey47]

Froggy: “Ten Hag is a good manager, it was all Casemiro’s fault. We actually deserved to win that game, we beat them in XG and didn’t look that bad for 10 minutes in the first half”

[rebelrouser]

[Nobody]

8 hours ago, Joey47 said:

Froggy: “Ten Hag is a good manager, it was all Casemiro’s fault. We actually deserved to win that game, we beat them in XG and didn’t look that bad for 10 minutes in the first half”

Tbf, that was a quality bit of play from Liverpool, who are looking annoyingly good for a side that just lost their talisman manager

[Ben]

Somebody has fucked up their maths here

[Kaizero]

Norway is playing Austria in the Nations League today and Ralf Ragnick, now manager of Austria, was asked how he thought his words when he left Man United had aged:

 

"This club doesn't need cosmetic surgery, it needs open heart surgery."

 

to which he replied: "If you take a look the state that club is in today, even just compared to when I left it, would you say I was incorrect? No, you wouldn't. I was hired in an attempt by the club ownership to paper over the cracks, and I followed a more competent and knowledgeable football manager than the one they hired to follow me." 

 

Love me a bit of snark  

 

 

Edited September 9, 2024 by Kaizero

[Froggy]

3 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

Norway is playing Austria in the Nations League today and Ralf Ragnick, now manager of Austria, was asked how he thought his words when he left Man Uted:

 

"This club doesn't need cosmetic surgery, it needs open heart surgery."

 

to which he replied: "If you take a look the state that club is in today, even just compared to when I left it, would you say I was incorrect? No, you wouldn't. I was hired in an attempt by the club ownership to paper over the cracks, and I followed a more competent and knowledgeable football manager than the one they hired to follow me." 

 

Love me a bit of snark  

 

Obviously still salty than Ten Hag didn't want to work with him. I like that he called Ole a competent and knowledgable football manager though. Ole is my guy.

 

Baffling decision by the club to get Rangnick in to do a job, not listen to him, then get rid of him before he could make an impact.

[Kaizero]

7 minutes ago, Froggy said:

Obviously still salty than Ten Hag didn't want to work with him. I like that he called Ole a competent and knowledgable football manager though. Ole is my guy.

 

Baffling decision by the club to get Rangnick in to do a job, not listen to him, then get rid of him before he could make an impact.

 

Whilst I know that as an NUFC supporter I'm supposed to hate the guy with intense passion due to that tackle, I'm also a Norwegian, which means I can't help defending the fact that OGS isn't a bad manager. He's perhaps not an elite manager capable of managing a massive club in a massive league, but the job he did completely restructuring Molde from the bottom up to take them to their first league title in their history and to perform well in Europe is just something that can't be denied was well done. Especially if you look at how Molde, whilst still one of the "big" teams in Norway, have started to fall apart, season by season, after he left them. 

 

Now, if Molde's decline comes as a result of OGS leaving them or Kjetil Knudsen re-inventing the way a football club is meant to be run up in Bodø is another discussion entirely

 

 

Edited September 9, 2024 by Kaizero