England

[jack j]

The cup final was my first visit to Wembley. In no rush of going back. The whole experience was shite

[tgarve]

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZGJTq3Toc/
 

some player

[Astroblack]

Southgate has made some lunatic decisions but if he had gone on form and things like that, you’d probably see Ramsdale in at goal and not Pickford so I’ll give him credit there. I can sort of understand Maguire and  Phillips, who tbf does play well for England when chosen. I saw Ward Prowse in a few games last year and even though he scored twice in the game I saw, when it came to his actual midfield duties, he looked at a different standard to the rest of the team.
 

Rashford was infuriating today and I can see why Man Utd fans are so hot and cold with him. Greedy, selfish and likes to go on walkabouts. Counted numerous times Bellingham closed down the players Marcus was supposed to be marking and would actually successfully dispossess the opposition player and create something. Rashford has to be an impact player. As a starter, he slows the game down, doesn’t press and doesn’t pass. 
 

Colwill at left back in the future if the natural ones are unfit? Tripps cannot play there. You can’t have two right footed players as your entire left wing. I suppose Foden will go back there when Saka is fit but Gordon should be taken into consideration. U21 POTT ffs. 

[Yorkie]

Which are the 'lunatic' decisions?

[Yorkie]

On the Phillips thing; the viable alternatives (unless im missing someone) are Henderson, Ward-Prowse and Gallagher; after that you're looking at the likes of Longstaff and Curtis Jones. The reality is, imo, that we're not particularly blessed in that position after Rice, who's excellent. All the options are much of a muchness; it might as well be Philips seeing as he's performed so well there for England historically. 

 

You could count Bellingham as an option, enabling the likes of Eze, Maddison and Mount to come in at number 10 - but he's clearly so blessed that we need to build the team around him in a place where he's most influential, which is precisely there. 

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

There's no need for Rice and Phillips, imo. Bellingham is easily box to box enough, and has the ability, to support Rice when needed. Phillips' place would be much better suited to a more creative centre midfielder. Or another up and down midfielder (a la wor Sean). Time for him to get creative in CM now Henderson is done. Gallagher isnt cutting it and Mount the same. 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Super Duper Branko Strupar

[LFEE]

30 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

On the Phillips thing; the viable alternatives (unless im missing someone) are Henderson, Ward-Prowse and Gallagher; after that you're looking at the likes of Longstaff and Curtis Jones. The reality is, imo, that we're not particularly blessed in that position after Rice, who's excellent. All the options are much of a muchness; it might as well be Philips seeing as he's performed so well there for England historically. 

 

You could count Bellingham as an option, enabling the likes of Eze, Maddison and Mount to come in at number 10 - but he's clearly so blessed that we need to build the team around him in a place where he's most influential, which is precisely there. 

I’ve never seen Phillips play well for England so not sure there’s much historical support for his selection. These last two games have only highlighted further the problem of playing someone getting next to no game time for the last 18 months approximately. He’s looked a yard or two off the pace. Tonight alone he could’ve got a Red first minute and bare minimum should’ve had 3 yellow/orange cards.

[Yorkie]

9 minutes ago, LFEE said:

I’ve never seen Phillips play well for England so not sure there’s much historical support for his selection. These last two games have only highlighted further the problem of playing someone getting next to no game time for the last 18 months approximately. He’s looked a yard or two off the pace. Tonight alone he could’ve got a Red first minute and bare minimum should’ve had 3 yellow/orange cards.

 

Well that's mad because he was arguably our player of the tournament during the Euros.

 

I wouldn't be against seeing someone else in there (not Henderson), I just don't think it's the crime of the century selecting him, given the other options. 

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

16 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

Well that's mad because he was arguably our player of the tournament during the Euros.

 

True.

[MorganBarasi]

3-1 vs Italy - great result, qualification. 

 

But if you strip it back - Southgate's flaws are still there. Shite first 30mins, Phillips way off, Maguire not defending front post for goal - just crap all round for their goal. 

 

Rashford needs to play LW - goal threat.  James Maddison, Jack Grealish - amazing players, but always want the ball to feet and play a pass. Rashford wants the ball forward, and wants to score a goal.

Foden/Bellingham - The more these two players play together for England, the better England will be. These two are Gazza talented and are proving it at their clubs.

Geuhi - Kane's goal. Pickford boomed a ball right at him - Maguire doesn't control it and ping a ball onto Kane. Maguire fucked up at near post for their goal, and was robotic and slow in possession. 

Tripps - Class. Makes everything look so simple. Trippier and Walker would be first choice full-backs for me.

 

[Mazzy]

1 hour ago, MorganBarasi said:

3-1 vs Italy - great result, qualification. 

 

But if you strip it back - Southgate's flaws are still there. Shite first 30mins, Phillips way off, Maguire not defending front post for goal - just crap all round for their goal. 

 

Rashford needs to play LW - goal threat.  James Maddison, Jack Grealish - amazing players, but always want the ball to feet and play a pass. Rashford wants the ball forward, and wants to score a goal.

Foden/Bellingham - The more these two players play together for England, the better England will be. These two are Gazza talented and are proving it at their clubs.

Geuhi - Kane's goal. Pickford boomed a ball right at him - Maguire doesn't control it and ping a ball onto Kane. Maguire fucked up at near post for their goal, and was robotic and slow in possession. 

Tripps - Class. Makes everything look so simple. Trippier and Walker would be first choice full-backs for me.

 

 

Maguire isn't at fault for their goal. I'd still have Guehi in ahead of him like but he did a good job.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Mazzy

[MorganBarasi]

1 minute ago, Mazzy said:

 

Maguire isn't at fault for their goal. I'd still have Guehi I'm ahead of him like but he did a good job.

 

Maguire should have screened/blocked the front post-6yard box. It's his responsibility to block any low ball into that 6 yard area - the ball gets through, and John Stones is left looking stupid.

 

Maguire doesn't defend the ball away, he's miles ahead of his near post - he's left Stones in no man's land. 

 

Honestly England could play any Man City U21 alongside John Stones, Kyle Walker and we'd be on our way.

 

The doddery old basket case that is a 35 year old Jordan Henderson will captain England, whilst Cole Palmer, Rico Lewis watch from the bench. 

[Mazzy]

40 minutes ago, MorganBarasi said:

 

Maguire should have screened/blocked the front post-6yard box. It's his responsibility to block any low ball into that 6 yard area - the ball gets through, and John Stones is left looking stupid.

 

Maguire doesn't defend the ball away, he's miles ahead of his near post - he's left Stones in no man's land. 

 

Honestly England could play any Man City U21 alongside John Stones, Kyle Walker and we'd be on our way.

 

The doddery old basket case that is a 35 year old Jordan Henderson will captain England, whilst Cole Palmer, Rico Lewis watch from the bench. 

 

Maguire does defend the front post. He goes with the player (Frattesi I think) who makes the back to front run and attempts to tackle/block him. The problem is Frattesi misses the ball completely and it falls to Scammaca who is left on his own by Stones. 

 

Stones gets dragged out too wide at the very start of this move to close down the Italy counter attack because Foden and Walker got caught high up the pitch and have only just got back. He doesn't get back into position to mark Scammaca quick enough which is ultimately why he scores a tap in.

 

Plenty of players at fault but not Maguire. 

[leffe186]

There’s clearly a problem with how we defend against really good teams. Feels like one issue is that we don’t have one standout CB that runs the show. Another is a proper LB as consistent as Walker. That puts pressure on the midfield to provide extra cover. Then if one of the wide forwards struggles to track back that’s another hole the CMs have to plug.

 

I don’t know how we solve that tbh. We’re so close. If you bring Saka in for Rashford that might go some way. Would love to bring a creative player in instead of Phillips (Maddison? Foden inside?) but I think that’s the step that Southgate is terrified of making.

 

Once again it feels like we are looking at the CBs as the issue.

[MorganBarasi]

6 hours ago, Mazzy said:

 

Maguire does defend the front post. He goes with the player (Frattesi I think) who makes the back to front run and attempts to tackle/block him. The problem is Frattesi misses the ball completely and it falls to Scammaca who is left on his own by Stones. 

 

Stones gets dragged out too wide at the very start of this move to close down the Italy counter attack because Foden and Walker got caught high up the pitch and have only just got back. He doesn't get back into position to mark Scammaca quick enough which is ultimately why he scores a tap in.

 

Plenty of players at fault but not Maguire. 

 

Aye - watching back your right. It's still a horrible goal to concede, that's shadowed by the fact we won 3-1 and Qualified. Any manager at a top club side is raging at the seams conceding that goal though.

 

I've still zero confidence that this Southgate's England would ever come back from 1-0 down to Italy in a Euro/World Cup Quarter Final though. Kane can score his penalties, and Wembley can blast out Sweet Caroline. When it actually matters, Kane misses - we miss 3 penalties at Wembley.

 

Harry Kane scores a penalty, of course he'll score; but end of the day - when it actually matters - he misses. Anyone who's ever taken penalties from non-league to World Cup, knows hit hard low down the middle in that situation (goalkeeper has to move), especially on the back of already scoring a penalty - Kane missed, over the bar. 

 

9 from 11 of who started last night would be my first choice XI - I'd swap out Tomori for Maguire, and play Trent in midfield. Southgate fannied around playing TAA in the RB/DM role against Aus and cocked it up, and Trent was still stand out player.

 

We could still be playing against Tomori in the San Siro and nothing is getting past him. Walker is still by far England's best RB, Trippier second - Trippier is by far England's best option at LB. 

 

Trent is obvious option for midfield - Southgate/Steve Holland wants to play with 5 defending/5 attacking (circa mid 00's - he's 10 years past it) meaning double pivot. Declan Rice is horrific on the ball in build up - add in Henderson or Phillips alongside is why everyone hates Southgate and makes England horrific to watch. 

 

Any team we are playing drops 10 yards deeper with TAA playing in midfield due to his range of passing. Southgate band waggon'd, and asked TAA to play that RB/DM role, but against Aus Henderson just got in the way. 

 

Tomori at CB, and TAA in midfield with Rice is the best/only option that restores my faith in Southgate [2nd holding midfielder - with huge passing range, can dribble, take ball on half turn, can press (everything 'Hendo' can't do')]

 

If we had to play Italy in Euro's tomorrow I'd play; 

Pickford/Walker-Stones-Tomori-Trippier/Rice-TAA/Bellingham-Foden-Rashford/Kane

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by MorganBarasi

[leffe186]

36 minutes ago, MorganBarasi said:

 

Aye - watching back your right. It's still a horrible goal to concede, that's shadowed by the fact we won 3-1 and Qualified. Any manager at a top club side is raging at the seams conceding that goal though.

 

I've still zero confidence that this Southgate's England would ever come back from 1-0 down to Italy in a Euro/World Cup Quarter Final though. Kane can score his penalties, and Wembley can blast out Sweet Caroline. When it actually matters, Kane misses - we miss 3 penalties at Wembley.

 

Harry Kane scores a penalty, of course he'll score; but end of the day - when it actually matters - he misses. Anyone who's ever taken penalties from non-league to World Cup, knows hit hard low down the middle in that situation (goalkeeper has to move), especially on the back of already scoring a penalty - Kane missed, over the bar. 

 

9 from 11 of who started last night would be my first choice XI - I'd swap out Tomori for Maguire, and play Trent in midfield. Southgate fannied around playing TAA in the RB/DM role against Aus and cocked it up, and Trent was still stand out player.

 

We could still be playing against Tomori in the San Siro and nothing is getting past him. Walker is still by far England's best RB, Trippier second - Trippier is by far England's best option at LB. 

 

Trent is obvious option for midfield - Southgate/Steve Holland wants to play with 5 defending/5 attacking (circa mid 00's - he's 10 years past it) meaning double pivot. Declan Rice is horrific on the ball in build up - add in Henderson or Phillips alongside is why everyone hates Southgate and makes England horrific to watch. 

 

Any team we are playing drops 10 yards deeper with TAA playing in midfield due to his range of passing. Southgate band waggon'd, and asked TAA to play that RB/DM role, but against Aus Henderson just got in the way. 

 

Tomori at CB, and TAA in midfield with Rice is the best/only option that restores my faith in Southgate [2nd holding midfielder - with huge passing range, can dribble, take ball on half turn, can press (everything 'Hendo' can't do')]

 

If we had to play Italy in Euro's tomorrow I'd play; 

Pickford/Walker-Stones-Tomori-Trippier/Rice-TAA/Bellingham-Foden-Rashford/Kane

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with you over Tomori. Not sure Trippier is “by far” the best LB as Shaw is fine and more natural in that position. Trippier probably still the best option with Levi Colwill an intriguing backup.

 

My concern is in midfield. We just saw a mediocre Italy cause us all sorts of problems in the first half down our left. Replacing Phillips with TAA and moving Bellingham out to the right just exacerbates this. Trippier will get taken apart. It also remains to be seen just how good TAA would be under the opposition’s press in CM and frankly whether he himself can press or dribble in that role. Not that we shouldn’t try it in the next two games - it’s certainly an option.

 

You’re also taking the best player out of his best position, although I definitely do see some benefit in bringing Foden inside. Maybe Bellingham would still be dangerous on the right and dovetail with Foden…but how many times did we see Bellingham bail out Rashford and/or Phillips yesterday? He can’t do that from the right, and I don’t see Foden doing as good a job - although again, it’s worth a try.

[MorganBarasi]

31 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

I agree with you over Tomori. Not sure Trippier is “by far” the best LB as Shaw is fine and more natural in that position. Trippier probably still the best option with Levi Colwill an intriguing backup.

 

My concern is in midfield. We just saw a mediocre Italy cause us all sorts of problems in the first half down our left. Replacing Phillips with TAA and moving Bellingham out to the right just exacerbates this. Trippier will get taken apart. It also remains to be seen just how good TAA would be under the opposition’s press in CM and frankly whether he himself can press or dribble in that role. Not that we shouldn’t try it in the next two games - it’s certainly an option.

 

You’re also taking the best player out of his best position, although I definitely do see some benefit in bringing Foden inside. Maybe Bellingham would still be dangerous on the right and dovetail with Foden…but how many times did we see Bellingham bail out Rashford and/or Phillips yesterday? He can’t do that from the right, and I don’t see Foden doing as good a job - although again, it’s worth a try.

 

An in form and fit Luke Shaw would be my LB of choice, natural left footedness provides width and overlap which I love! - but bias aside, Trippier is England's most in form LB. He was quality against Scotland at LB, he was quality against Italy. Yes - he's out of position - but Kyle Walker is England's best RB 

 

Not suggesting Bellingham moves wide. I'm suggesting Southgate steps out of the mid 2010's Double Pivot mindset, and starts playing his most talented players in every game. 

 

Even Sven knew Scholes was too good to leave on the bench. Southgate will leave Phil Foden on the bench, and play Phillips/Henderson alongside Rice as a double-pivot (circa mid 00s-08 tactic).

 

Against AUS Grealish ran more back to his own half and passed inside - TAA moved inside to play as a DM, with Gallagher just then standing in RB position. James Maddison getting passes from Dunk 50 yards away from goal. If we can't open up Australia from CB, and move their press - what hope have we got when likes of Germany/Spain/Argentina/Brazil when it matters. We will fall down to penalties, rather than being more skilled and just better.

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by MorganBarasi

[LFEE]

11 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

Well that's mad because he was arguably our player of the tournament during the Euros.

 

I wouldn't be against seeing someone else in there (not Henderson), I just don't think it's the crime of the century selecting him, given the other options. 

Arguably. I’d argue he wasn’t. Was comfortable in the group stages with hardly any fans in the ground but Denmark and Italy give him the runaround I thought.

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, MorganBarasi said:

 

An in form and fit Luke Shaw would be my LB of choice, natural left footedness provides width and overlap which I love! - but bias aside, Trippier is England's most in form LB. He was quality against Scotland at LB, he was quality against Italy. Yes - he's out of position - but Kyle Walker is England's best RB 

 

Not suggesting Bellingham moves wide. I'm suggesting Southgate steps out of the mid 2010's Double Pivot mindset, and starts playing his most talented players in every game. 

 

Even Sven knew Scholes was too good to leave on the bench. Southgate will leave Phil Foden on the bench, and play Phillips/Henderson alongside Rice as a double-pivot (circa mid 00s-08 tactic).

 

Against AUS Grealish ran more back to his own half and passed inside - TAA moved inside to play as a DM, with Gallagher just then standing in RB position. James Maddison getting passes from Dunk 50 yards away from goal. If we can't open up Australia from CB, and move their press - what hope have we got when likes of Germany/Spain/Argentina/Brazil when it matters. We will fall down to penalties, rather than being more skilled and just better.

 

 

 

I’m not sure I follow. Don’t get me wrong btw, I think this is interesting. Firstly your line-up:

 

“If we had to play Italy in Euro's tomorrow I'd play; 

Pickford/Walker-Stones-Tomori-Trippier/Rice-TAA/Bellingham-Foden-Rashford/Kane”

 

It looked like you were playing Bellingham on the right and Foden in the middle. If you’re not, and just saying keep the same top four then fair enough, although I’d be tempted to switch Foden and Rashford. You lose the cutting inside, but gain the byline and (I think) a bit of defensive stability.

 

And then, what is it you’re asking TAA to do? It seemed like last night Rice was patrolling the back four. Bellingham was to the left a bit, up and down the pitch and often playing as a 10. Phillips was to the right a bit but mainly just harried people. It sounded like you wanted TAA as more of a DM, but then you pointed out that it didn’t work against Australia. If he’s going to be more advanced then that leaves us even more exposed on the wings.

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by leffe186

[St. Maximin]

23 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

Well that's mad because he was arguably our player of the tournament during the Euros.

 

I wouldn't be against seeing someone else in there (not Henderson), I just don't think it's the crime of the century selecting him, given the other options. 

I think he’s excellent personally and easily England standard, which makes it even more frustrating he’s not playing for his club. As far as England goes, I’m more frustrated with the message it sends by Southgate to pick players who are not playing club football (or at a high standard) and (unsurprisingly) also not performing for England when they get on - both to the players and those in-form who could be selected instead, Newcastle players included. 
 

It seems Southgate doesn’t want to experiment when he has the perfect opportunities to (between tournaments) and sticks with his favourites who “never let him down”. Eventually he’ll need a bit more than simply not being let down, with the fans expecting higher. 

[HawK]

England - Managed by Gareth Southgate

 

GK Pickford

 

LB Shaw

CD Stones

CD Maguire

RB Walker

 

LM Bellingham

CM Henderson

RM Rice

 

LW Foden

CF Kane

RW Saka

 

--vs--

 

England - Managed by Eddie Howe

 

GK Pope

 

LB Burn

CD Dummett

CD Lascelles

RB Trippier

 

LM Willock

CM Hall / Anderson / Miley

RM Longstaff

 

LW Gordon / Barnes

CF Wilson

RW Barnes / Gordon

 

 

K that seemed closer in my head

[andycap]

1 hour ago, HawK said:

England - Managed by Gareth Southgate

 

GK Pickford

 

LB Shaw

CD Stones

CD Maguire

RB Walker

 

LM Bellingham

CM Henderson

RM Rice

 

LW Foden

CF Kane

RW Saka

 

--vs--

 

England - Managed by Eddie Howe

 

GK Pope

 

LB Burn

CD Dummett

CD Lascelles

RB Trippier

 

LM Willock

CM Hall / Anderson / Miley

RM Longstaff

 

LW Gordon / Barnes

CF Wilson

RW Barnes / Gordon

 

 

K that seemed closer in my head

Your missing Murphy lad

[NUFCDoog]

He'd do well to get Dummett in there, think Wales might have an objection or two 

[Stifler]

Eddie Howe could pick up some players from the National League and get us to a World Cup final.

[Interpolic]

Willock, Longstaff and Gordon all deserve call-ups.