Rafael Benitez

[joeyt]

Not that relevant as we're in the division below but found it interesting that there's only one player in the Premier League who has made more than 5 starts this season and is under 20 (Rashford)

[triggs]

You're forgetting the likes of Shane Ferguson, Jak Alnwick, Sammy Ameobi, Bigirimana and there'll be more. All given a chance but just weren't good enough.

 

It's one of the things I'm most interested with Rafa, seeing if there is a change in how we bring kids through.

Alnwick was given a chance because we had no other goalkeepers and yes he was shit but tbf loads of keepers look shit when they first come through. Bigirimana was fucked around by Pardew by playing him out of position. Sammy wasn't good enough aye. Can't really remember what happened with Ferguson. Getting back to the original point I was making, none of these guys showed anywhere near as much potential as Armstrong anyway

[relámpago blanco]

I can't remember any player we have had for a very long time that has so done so well as Armstrong to be fair at his age.

 

[Tiotes Witch Doctor]

I still don't think Bigi was that bad, at times he was performing a lot better than those around him but was seemingly frozen out.

[mrmojorisin75]

is all this because i said i'd keep armstrong as 3rd choice behind gayle and a gayle improvement if we played a 1 striker system?

 

it's the next stage in progression to get into the/a PL squad and try to force himself in from a backup spot, that's when we'll know how good he actually is and if he's going to make it

[xLiaaamx]

3rd choice is too high. It's certainly not the next stage. He needs to show he can actually score consistently at this level first.

[triggs]

3rd choice is too high. It's certainly not the next stage. He needs to show he can actually score consistently at this level first.

If he could score consistently at this level he'd be way too good for third choice

 

[joeyt]

I can't remember any player we have had for a very long time that has so done so well as Armstrong to be fair at his age.

Chopra did well in the football league didn't he at a similar age?

 

[mrmojorisin75]

3rd choice is too high. It's certainly not the next stage. He needs to show he can actually score consistently at this level first.

If he could score consistently at this level he'd be way too good for third choice

 

 

adam armstrong, newcastle united's latest own yossarian

[newsted]

Niche.

[Figures 1-0 Football]

 

Anyone know anything about this guy or the reason he visited? Just seems a bit random.

[Yorkie]

Potential Cathro replacement?

 

Not sure of 'head of methodology' sounds like too big of a deal to move to Newcastle for.

[Paully]

http://www.true-faith.co.uk/match-preview-podcast-newcastle-united-v-birmingham-city-st-james-park-10dec16-ko-3pm/

 

 

I’ll start by admitting that true faith was once again invited by Newcastle United to spend time with Rafa Benitez on Wednesday afternoon.  I was lucky enough for the second time this season to spend 3+ hours with the man talking football and Newcastle United.  I have to thank you, the people who read, subscribe and listen to everything true faith produces for continuing to do so as it’s the platform you provide us which interests the club.  Not that I’ve got a specific message for you from the club or Rafa.  We know most of what Rafa is thinking as he speaks to the press regularly and speaks the truth.  He’s delighted with how the season has gone.  We’ve lost five games yet are top of the league, effectively seven points clear of third place. That will change this weekend as Leeds play Brighton at the Amex and one of them has to close the gap on us.  Given the inconsistency of the chasing pack (for example Reading last weekend) I’d rather Leeds closed our automatic promotion gap than Brighton picked up points.  Leeds will have a rocky month, a bad spell etc.  Brighton are relentless and it’s testament to how well we’ve done this season that we remain above them in the league despite being the victims of disgraceful refereeing decisions in more than one game.  A draw will do for me.

 

Rafa is a pragmatist.  People whose hysteria bemoan the number of defeats, or lack of this or that – it’s irrelevant to Rafa rafa24who just wants to get promoted.  He wants to improve the football club.  Improving the football club doesn’t mean breaking Reading’s points total or not losing games to keep people who don’t go to games happy (but are very angry on twitter). It means buying good young players who have the ability to get better as footballers while at the club, improving the academy so that we don’t just produce players that are fit for loans and then careers in the football league but can represent Newcastle United in the Premier League.  Rafa had a coaching delegation over from Sevilla FC yesterday.  Their academy has notably produced Alberto Moreno, Sergio Ramos, Alvaro Negredo, Jesus Navas and many, many more.  That lot represented Sevilla with distinction before bringing in around £130m+ for their services.  Rafa has the credibility and the pull to bring people like this in to help our club.  The absolute aim is promotion.  If we lose ten games and still win the league it doesn’t matter.  The Blackburn game was disappointing but like most defeats, the manager learnt a lot about certain players in defeat than it’s possible to in victory.  Making Newcastle United into one of the biggest clubs in the country again won’t take 6 months, or twelve or maybe even eighteen.  If we continue to pull together in the right direction then it’s more than likely other clubs won’t.  They’ll make bad appointments, sign bad players, make bad decisions.  With Rafa at the helm we’ll make progress as a club and a first team and with hopefully transplant many of the clubs currently above us in the Premier League.

 

[themanupstairs]

Fuck the haters and the pessimists 

[Darth Crooks]

Don't be a twat Mike.

[The College Dropout]

 

 

I don't think Southampton have ever given a young kid a go as a striker though have they?

 

It's an incredibly important position to just give someone a chance, especially when we've got Gayle scoring regularly and Mitrovic not doing terribly

 

Er - they once played a 17 year old against Arsenal and he scored a hat-trick....his name was Shearer I believe...

You know what he's getting at, he means recently (I'd guess since Bale) and I'd guess a bigger reason could be the quality of the kids we are talking about, the coaching they've received etc to get them to that stage, theirs were good enough. It's hardly like we've had floods of kids leave our academy and make it at premiership level even with other clubs.

Not many kids make it without getting lots of games when they're 19/20/21

 

 

They also have to be good enough to get the games.

Are kids in Southampton just naturally better than kids in other parts of England then?

Possibly a better scouting system and better coached or are you saying that we would have had players like they've produced purely by chucking kids in ?

Well we'll never know but it is all about the culture of the club. If kids see guys from the academy getting a chance they'll become more motivated because they'll begin to think that it's possible if they work hard that they'll get a chance too

They'll get that chance if they are good enough.

 

This is bs.

 

The lack of chances given to young English players in the PL is one of the prime reasons there's a dearth of English players.

 

At our club is generally a lack of talent and/or coaching. We haven't developed any significant player with any skill or technique in yonks. I don't think Carroll would've been given the same chance had we not gotten relegated. Subsequently, there's no way he goes for £35m

[triggs]

 

 

I don't think Southampton have ever given a young kid a go as a striker though have they?

 

It's an incredibly important position to just give someone a chance, especially when we've got Gayle scoring regularly and Mitrovic not doing terribly

 

Er - they once played a 17 year old against Arsenal and he scored a hat-trick....his name was Shearer I believe...

You know what he's getting at, he means recently (I'd guess since Bale) and I'd guess a bigger reason could be the quality of the kids we are talking about, the coaching they've received etc to get them to that stage, theirs were good enough. It's hardly like we've had floods of kids leave our academy and make it at premiership level even with other clubs.

Not many kids make it without getting lots of games when they're 19/20/21

 

 

They also have to be good enough to get the games.

Are kids in Southampton just naturally better than kids in other parts of England then?

Possibly a better scouting system and better coached or are you saying that we would have had players like they've produced purely by chucking kids in ?

Well we'll never know but it is all about the culture of the club. If kids see guys from the academy getting a chance they'll become more motivated because they'll begin to think that it's possible if they work hard that they'll get a chance too

They'll get that chance if they are good enough.

 

This is bs.

 

The lack of chances given to young English players in the PL is one of the prime reasons there's a dearth of English players.

 

At our club is generally a lack of talent and/or coaching. We haven't developed any significant player with any skill or technique in yonks. I don't think Carroll would've been given the same chance had we not gotten relegated. Subsequently, there's no way he goes for £35m

Aye, just so happened to read this article on F365 which sums it up for me.

 

“It is frustrating but I’m not angry that I’m not playing because I understand it’s difficult,” said Marcus Rashford in September, in response to questions over his lack of Manchester United playing opportunities under Jose Mourinho. “We have a lot of big players and a lot of players in my situation as well who are not getting the minutes they probably thought they deserved to get.”

 

Given those frustrations, Rashford may be surprised to learn that he is one of a kind in the Premier League: a teenager playing regular football.

 

A list of players currently aged under 20 with five or more league appearances in Europe’s top five leagues contains 57 names. Ligue Un is (perhaps predictably) the largest provider, with 22. Next comes the Bundesliga with 15, then Serie A with 12 and La Liga with seven. That makes 56; Rashford is the sole Premier League representative.

 

Earlier this week, the CIES Football Observatory produced a report that extended that statistic across Europe, with similar results. It revealed that 87 teenage footballers had played 60% of their side’s league minutes by the end of November. Rashford (placed in 78th with 62%) is once more the only Premier League player who qualifies.

 

The lack of minutes afforded to young English players is a well-documented but important argument, inevitably framed in the context of our national team’s failures. Yet these latest statistics go beyond patriotic concerns. It is not just domestic teenagers who are unable to gain a foothold in the Premier League, but teenagers of any nationality. That suggests that the issue lies with the league rather than the players.

 

Young Premier League players are left waiting for an exceptional circumstance. Ifs and buts aren’t candy and nuts, but if Anthony Martial had not got injured in the warm-up against FC Midtjylland, Rashford would not have started the game in February. It’s hardly a huge leap to suggest that his chance of regular starts may never have come under Louis van Gaal. Would Jose Mourinho’s arrival have really changed that? His record with young players suggests not.

 

The obvious reaction is to suggest that the use of teenagers correlates with the standard of team or league, thus explaining Ligue Un’s high figure. Firstly, that does not account for the relatively high figures in Serie A and Bundesliga, but also the theory of ‘worse teams use more teenagers’ does not stand up to scrutiny. Nine of Germany’s current top ten are represented in that original list of 57, and three of Serie A’s top six. 

 

The supposition that English clubs loan out their teenagers rather than play them partly accounts for the shortfall. Chelsea have loaned two teenagers to clubs in Europe’s top five leagues (Jeremie Boga and Victorien Angban, both at Granada) but only Boga makes the list of 57. No other Premier League club is represented.

 

Instead, the Eredivisie (now Europe’s 13th-ranked league) has become the temporary home for many. Marlos Moreno, Oleksandr Zinchenko and Enes Unal are merely the Manchester City players currently at risk of a condition we can call Lucas Piazonitis. Signed in March 2011 at the age of 17, Piazon is still a Chelsea player, now on loan at Fulham after spells with Malaga, Vitesse, Eintracht Frankfurt and Reading. It’s too sweeping to say “well if he was good enough, he’d have made it by now”. At a club where Piazon could have been cherished and played, he may have become a better player. Vital years have been spent as a footballing nomad.

 

Nor are the Premier League academies filled with Europe’s best young talent, neither loaned out nor given first-team opportunities. Chelsea are the only top-flight representative to make waves in the UEFA Youth Champions League, with no other English club reaching the semi-finals since the tournament began in 2013/14. This season, both Arsenal and Tottenham were knocked out in the group stages.

 

The simple explanation is that the Premier League’s transfer activity is increasingly focused on developed (or at least developing) players, the enlarged broadcasting deal persuading clubs to pay the premium for finished products. This is the result of a division engorged by rich clubs. Deloitte’s latest money league (for the 2014/15 season) had 15 current Premier League clubs and two Championship clubs in Europe’s top 30 by revenue. If you were given £500 to buy a cake, you wouldn’t be pondering brands of flour, butter and eggs, but whether your delicious treat will have one or two tiers.

 

The Premier League’s chronic short-termism also doesn’t help, where one or two mistakes become back-page proof of your ineptitude. Managers are asked for continuous improvement, to bolt pieces together while running at full speed. Criticism of Bob Bradley this week accused him of an inability to recruit players intelligently before he’s even been given an opportunity to do so. Buying players, not improving or educating them, becomes the prized skill. Young players understandably get overlooked.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Another CIES report on the average age of squads in Europe’s top five leagues had Tottenham as the Premier League’s only representative in the top 15 (in 15th), with Liverpool also in the top 20. Both clubs are coached by managers with an established and commendable commitment to offering young players a chance, but in both cases that philosophy will be tested when the performance of the team comes under scrutiny.

 

You may be thinking that this is a misplaced worry, that the cream will always find a way to rise to the top. Yet there is a question to be asked: Is a Premier League academy the right place for a talented young player?

 

“The way they showed an interest in me and gave me the feeling they really wanted me convinced me,” said Ousmane Dembele when joining Borussia Dortmund. “Dortmund are the perfect club for young players, the past has shown that.” Renato Sanches’ words mirrored Dembele’s when discussing why he chose Bayern Munich over Manchester United, while Breel Embolo reportedly rejected the same club in favour of Schalke. Jean-Philippe Mateta (Lyon), Oliver Burke (RB Leipzig) and Gabriel Barbosa (Inter) also spurned Premier League offers, citing a desire for regular football.

 

Many others will surely follow suit. In March, the Daily Mail picked their top ten teenagers in the world, which included Embolo, Dembele and Sanches and suggested potential next destinations for all ten. Manchester United and Arsenal were linked with five, Manchester City four, Chelsea three, Liverpool and Tottenham two and Everton, West Brom and West Ham one. Three have since joined Bundesliga clubs and become regulars, one has played in the Champions Legue for Juventus (Moise Kean) while two moved to the Premier League. Keep a look-out for when Tahith Chong (United) and Lorenzo Gonzalez (City) break into the first teams in Manchester.

 

For all the talk of youth development and coaching standards, the biggest test of an academy is not the improvement of players but their progression to the first team. Competitive football (no, not the Checkatrade) is the most vital part of a young player’s development.

 

By that measure, the Premier League is falling further and further behind, suffocated by its own wealth. The highest level of English football is struggling to provide those teenage kicks.

 

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-no-teenage-kicks-in-premier-league

[Scoot]

http://www.true-faith.co.uk/match-preview-podcast-newcastle-united-v-birmingham-city-st-james-park-10dec16-ko-3pm/

 

 

I’ll start by admitting that true faith was once again invited by Newcastle United to spend time with Rafa Benitez on Wednesday afternoon.  I was lucky enough for the second time this season to spend 3+ hours with the man talking football and Newcastle United.  I have to thank you, the people who read, subscribe and listen to everything true faith produces for continuing to do so as it’s the platform you provide us which interests the club.  Not that I’ve got a specific message for you from the club or Rafa.  We know most of what Rafa is thinking as he speaks to the press regularly and speaks the truth.  He’s delighted with how the season has gone.  We’ve lost five games yet are top of the league, effectively seven points clear of third place. That will change this weekend as Leeds play Brighton at the Amex and one of them has to close the gap on us.  Given the inconsistency of the chasing pack (for example Reading last weekend) I’d rather Leeds closed our automatic promotion gap than Brighton picked up points.  Leeds will have a rocky month, a bad spell etc.  Brighton are relentless and it’s testament to how well we’ve done this season that we remain above them in the league despite being the victims of disgraceful refereeing decisions in more than one game.  A draw will do for me.

 

Rafa is a pragmatist.  People whose hysteria bemoan the number of defeats, or lack of this or that – it’s irrelevant to Rafa rafa24who just wants to get promoted.  He wants to improve the football club.  Improving the football club doesn’t mean breaking Reading’s points total or not losing games to keep people who don’t go to games happy (but are very angry on twitter). It means buying good young players who have the ability to get better as footballers while at the club, improving the academy so that we don’t just produce players that are fit for loans and then careers in the football league but can represent Newcastle United in the Premier League.  Rafa had a coaching delegation over from Sevilla FC yesterday.  Their academy has notably produced Alberto Moreno, Sergio Ramos, Alvaro Negredo, Jesus Navas and many, many more.  That lot represented Sevilla with distinction before bringing in around £130m+ for their services.  Rafa has the credibility and the pull to bring people like this in to help our club.  The absolute aim is promotion.  If we lose ten games and still win the league it doesn’t matter.  The Blackburn game was disappointing but like most defeats, the manager learnt a lot about certain players in defeat than it’s possible to in victory.  Making Newcastle United into one of the biggest clubs in the country again won’t take 6 months, or twelve or maybe even eighteen.  If we continue to pull together in the right direction then it’s more than likely other clubs won’t.  They’ll make bad appointments, sign bad players, make bad decisions.  With Rafa at the helm we’ll make progress as a club and a first team and with hopefully transplant many of the clubs currently above us in the Premier League.

 

 

Great to hear again.

[Guest dabe]

triggs, good reading.

[madras]

 

 

I don't think Southampton have ever given a young kid a go as a striker though have they?

 

It's an incredibly important position to just give someone a chance, especially when we've got Gayle scoring regularly and Mitrovic not doing terribly

 

Er - they once played a 17 year old against Arsenal and he scored a hat-trick....his name was Shearer I believe...

You know what he's getting at, he means recently (I'd guess since Bale) and I'd guess a bigger reason could be the quality of the kids we are talking about, the coaching they've received etc to get them to that stage, theirs were good enough. It's hardly like we've had floods of kids leave our academy and make it at premiership level even with other clubs.

Not many kids make it without getting lots of games when they're 19/20/21

 

 

They also have to be good enough to get the games.

Are kids in Southampton just naturally better than kids in other parts of England then?

Possibly a better scouting system and better coached or are you saying that we would have had players like they've produced purely by chucking kids in ?

Well we'll never know but it is all about the culture of the club. If kids see guys from the academy getting a chance they'll become more motivated because they'll begin to think that it's possible if they work hard that they'll get a chance too

They'll get that chance if they are good enough.

 

This is bs.

 

The lack of chances given to young English players in the PL is one of the prime reasons there's a dearth of English players.

 

At our club is generally a lack of talent and/or coaching. We haven't developed any significant player with any skill or technique in yonks. I don't think Carroll would've been given the same chance had we not gotten relegated. Subsequently, there's no way he goes for £35m

Aye, just so happened to read this article on F365 which sums it up for me.

 

“It is frustrating but I’m not angry that I’m not playing because I understand it’s difficult,” said Marcus Rashford in September, in response to questions over his lack of Manchester United playing opportunities under Jose Mourinho. “We have a lot of big players and a lot of players in my situation as well who are not getting the minutes they probably thought they deserved to get.”

 

Given those frustrations, Rashford may be surprised to learn that he is one of a kind in the Premier League: a teenager playing regular football.

 

A list of players currently aged under 20 with five or more league appearances in Europe’s top five leagues contains 57 names. Ligue Un is (perhaps predictably) the largest provider, with 22. Next comes the Bundesliga with 15, then Serie A with 12 and La Liga with seven. That makes 56; Rashford is the sole Premier League representative.

 

Earlier this week, the CIES Football Observatory produced a report that extended that statistic across Europe, with similar results. It revealed that 87 teenage footballers had played 60% of their side’s league minutes by the end of November. Rashford (placed in 78th with 62%) is once more the only Premier League player who qualifies.

 

The lack of minutes afforded to young English players is a well-documented but important argument, inevitably framed in the context of our national team’s failures. Yet these latest statistics go beyond patriotic concerns. It is not just domestic teenagers who are unable to gain a foothold in the Premier League, but teenagers of any nationality. That suggests that the issue lies with the league rather than the players.

 

Young Premier League players are left waiting for an exceptional circumstance. Ifs and buts aren’t candy and nuts, but if Anthony Martial had not got injured in the warm-up against FC Midtjylland, Rashford would not have started the game in February. It’s hardly a huge leap to suggest that his chance of regular starts may never have come under Louis van Gaal. Would Jose Mourinho’s arrival have really changed that? His record with young players suggests not.

 

The obvious reaction is to suggest that the use of teenagers correlates with the standard of team or league, thus explaining Ligue Un’s high figure. Firstly, that does not account for the relatively high figures in Serie A and Bundesliga, but also the theory of ‘worse teams use more teenagers’ does not stand up to scrutiny. Nine of Germany’s current top ten are represented in that original list of 57, and three of Serie A’s top six. 

 

The supposition that English clubs loan out their teenagers rather than play them partly accounts for the shortfall. Chelsea have loaned two teenagers to clubs in Europe’s top five leagues (Jeremie Boga and Victorien Angban, both at Granada) but only Boga makes the list of 57. No other Premier League club is represented.

 

Instead, the Eredivisie (now Europe’s 13th-ranked league) has become the temporary home for many. Marlos Moreno, Oleksandr Zinchenko and Enes Unal are merely the Manchester City players currently at risk of a condition we can call Lucas Piazonitis. Signed in March 2011 at the age of 17, Piazon is still a Chelsea player, now on loan at Fulham after spells with Malaga, Vitesse, Eintracht Frankfurt and Reading. It’s too sweeping to say “well if he was good enough, he’d have made it by now”. At a club where Piazon could have been cherished and played, he may have become a better player. Vital years have been spent as a footballing nomad.

 

Nor are the Premier League academies filled with Europe’s best young talent, neither loaned out nor given first-team opportunities. Chelsea are the only top-flight representative to make waves in the UEFA Youth Champions League, with no other English club reaching the semi-finals since the tournament began in 2013/14. This season, both Arsenal and Tottenham were knocked out in the group stages.

 

The simple explanation is that the Premier League’s transfer activity is increasingly focused on developed (or at least developing) players, the enlarged broadcasting deal persuading clubs to pay the premium for finished products. This is the result of a division engorged by rich clubs. Deloitte’s latest money league (for the 2014/15 season) had 15 current Premier League clubs and two Championship clubs in Europe’s top 30 by revenue. If you were given £500 to buy a cake, you wouldn’t be pondering brands of flour, butter and eggs, but whether your delicious treat will have one or two tiers.

 

The Premier League’s chronic short-termism also doesn’t help, where one or two mistakes become back-page proof of your ineptitude. Managers are asked for continuous improvement, to bolt pieces together while running at full speed. Criticism of Bob Bradley this week accused him of an inability to recruit players intelligently before he’s even been given an opportunity to do so. Buying players, not improving or educating them, becomes the prized skill. Young players understandably get overlooked.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Another CIES report on the average age of squads in Europe’s top five leagues had Tottenham as the Premier League’s only representative in the top 15 (in 15th), with Liverpool also in the top 20. Both clubs are coached by managers with an established and commendable commitment to offering young players a chance, but in both cases that philosophy will be tested when the performance of the team comes under scrutiny.

 

You may be thinking that this is a misplaced worry, that the cream will always find a way to rise to the top. Yet there is a question to be asked: Is a Premier League academy the right place for a talented young player?

 

“The way they showed an interest in me and gave me the feeling they really wanted me convinced me,” said Ousmane Dembele when joining Borussia Dortmund. “Dortmund are the perfect club for young players, the past has shown that.” Renato Sanches’ words mirrored Dembele’s when discussing why he chose Bayern Munich over Manchester United, while Breel Embolo reportedly rejected the same club in favour of Schalke. Jean-Philippe Mateta (Lyon), Oliver Burke (RB Leipzig) and Gabriel Barbosa (Inter) also spurned Premier League offers, citing a desire for regular football.

 

Many others will surely follow suit. In March, the Daily Mail picked their top ten teenagers in the world, which included Embolo, Dembele and Sanches and suggested potential next destinations for all ten. Manchester United and Arsenal were linked with five, Manchester City four, Chelsea three, Liverpool and Tottenham two and Everton, West Brom and West Ham one. Three have since joined Bundesliga clubs and become regulars, one has played in the Champions Legue for Juventus (Moise Kean) while two moved to the Premier League. Keep a look-out for when Tahith Chong (United) and Lorenzo Gonzalez (City) break into the first teams in Manchester.

 

For all the talk of youth development and coaching standards, the biggest test of an academy is not the improvement of players but their progression to the first team. Competitive football (no, not the Checkatrade) is the most vital part of a young player’s development.

 

By that measure, the Premier League is falling further and further behind, suffocated by its own wealth. The highest level of English football is struggling to provide those teenage kicks.

 

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-no-teenage-kicks-in-premier-league

As I stated earlier scouting and coaching play a massive part. merely playing them if they aren't ready/good enough does them nor their clubs no favours.

[triggs]

 

 

I don't think Southampton have ever given a young kid a go as a striker though have they?

 

It's an incredibly important position to just give someone a chance, especially when we've got Gayle scoring regularly and Mitrovic not doing terribly

 

Er - they once played a 17 year old against Arsenal and he scored a hat-trick....his name was Shearer I believe...

You know what he's getting at, he means recently (I'd guess since Bale) and I'd guess a bigger reason could be the quality of the kids we are talking about, the coaching they've received etc to get them to that stage, theirs were good enough. It's hardly like we've had floods of kids leave our academy and make it at premiership level even with other clubs.

Not many kids make it without getting lots of games when they're 19/20/21

 

 

They also have to be good enough to get the games.

Are kids in Southampton just naturally better than kids in other parts of England then?

Possibly a better scouting system and better coached or are you saying that we would have had players like they've produced purely by chucking kids in ?

Well we'll never know but it is all about the culture of the club. If kids see guys from the academy getting a chance they'll become more motivated because they'll begin to think that it's possible if they work hard that they'll get a chance too

They'll get that chance if they are good enough.

 

This is bs.

 

The lack of chances given to young English players in the PL is one of the prime reasons there's a dearth of English players.

 

At our club is generally a lack of talent and/or coaching. We haven't developed any significant player with any skill or technique in yonks. I don't think Carroll would've been given the same chance had we not gotten relegated. Subsequently, there's no way he goes for £35m

Aye, just so happened to read this article on F365 which sums it up for me.

 

“It is frustrating but I’m not angry that I’m not playing because I understand it’s difficult,” said Marcus Rashford in September, in response to questions over his lack of Manchester United playing opportunities under Jose Mourinho. “We have a lot of big players and a lot of players in my situation as well who are not getting the minutes they probably thought they deserved to get.”

 

Given those frustrations, Rashford may be surprised to learn that he is one of a kind in the Premier League: a teenager playing regular football.

 

A list of players currently aged under 20 with five or more league appearances in Europe’s top five leagues contains 57 names. Ligue Un is (perhaps predictably) the largest provider, with 22. Next comes the Bundesliga with 15, then Serie A with 12 and La Liga with seven. That makes 56; Rashford is the sole Premier League representative.

 

Earlier this week, the CIES Football Observatory produced a report that extended that statistic across Europe, with similar results. It revealed that 87 teenage footballers had played 60% of their side’s league minutes by the end of November. Rashford (placed in 78th with 62%) is once more the only Premier League player who qualifies.

 

The lack of minutes afforded to young English players is a well-documented but important argument, inevitably framed in the context of our national team’s failures. Yet these latest statistics go beyond patriotic concerns. It is not just domestic teenagers who are unable to gain a foothold in the Premier League, but teenagers of any nationality. That suggests that the issue lies with the league rather than the players.

 

Young Premier League players are left waiting for an exceptional circumstance. Ifs and buts aren’t candy and nuts, but if Anthony Martial had not got injured in the warm-up against FC Midtjylland, Rashford would not have started the game in February. It’s hardly a huge leap to suggest that his chance of regular starts may never have come under Louis van Gaal. Would Jose Mourinho’s arrival have really changed that? His record with young players suggests not.

 

The obvious reaction is to suggest that the use of teenagers correlates with the standard of team or league, thus explaining Ligue Un’s high figure. Firstly, that does not account for the relatively high figures in Serie A and Bundesliga, but also the theory of ‘worse teams use more teenagers’ does not stand up to scrutiny. Nine of Germany’s current top ten are represented in that original list of 57, and three of Serie A’s top six. 

 

The supposition that English clubs loan out their teenagers rather than play them partly accounts for the shortfall. Chelsea have loaned two teenagers to clubs in Europe’s top five leagues (Jeremie Boga and Victorien Angban, both at Granada) but only Boga makes the list of 57. No other Premier League club is represented.

 

Instead, the Eredivisie (now Europe’s 13th-ranked league) has become the temporary home for many. Marlos Moreno, Oleksandr Zinchenko and Enes Unal are merely the Manchester City players currently at risk of a condition we can call Lucas Piazonitis. Signed in March 2011 at the age of 17, Piazon is still a Chelsea player, now on loan at Fulham after spells with Malaga, Vitesse, Eintracht Frankfurt and Reading. It’s too sweeping to say “well if he was good enough, he’d have made it by now”. At a club where Piazon could have been cherished and played, he may have become a better player. Vital years have been spent as a footballing nomad.

 

Nor are the Premier League academies filled with Europe’s best young talent, neither loaned out nor given first-team opportunities. Chelsea are the only top-flight representative to make waves in the UEFA Youth Champions League, with no other English club reaching the semi-finals since the tournament began in 2013/14. This season, both Arsenal and Tottenham were knocked out in the group stages.

 

The simple explanation is that the Premier League’s transfer activity is increasingly focused on developed (or at least developing) players, the enlarged broadcasting deal persuading clubs to pay the premium for finished products. This is the result of a division engorged by rich clubs. Deloitte’s latest money league (for the 2014/15 season) had 15 current Premier League clubs and two Championship clubs in Europe’s top 30 by revenue. If you were given £500 to buy a cake, you wouldn’t be pondering brands of flour, butter and eggs, but whether your delicious treat will have one or two tiers.

 

The Premier League’s chronic short-termism also doesn’t help, where one or two mistakes become back-page proof of your ineptitude. Managers are asked for continuous improvement, to bolt pieces together while running at full speed. Criticism of Bob Bradley this week accused him of an inability to recruit players intelligently before he’s even been given an opportunity to do so. Buying players, not improving or educating them, becomes the prized skill. Young players understandably get overlooked.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Another CIES report on the average age of squads in Europe’s top five leagues had Tottenham as the Premier League’s only representative in the top 15 (in 15th), with Liverpool also in the top 20. Both clubs are coached by managers with an established and commendable commitment to offering young players a chance, but in both cases that philosophy will be tested when the performance of the team comes under scrutiny.

 

You may be thinking that this is a misplaced worry, that the cream will always find a way to rise to the top. Yet there is a question to be asked: Is a Premier League academy the right place for a talented young player?

 

“The way they showed an interest in me and gave me the feeling they really wanted me convinced me,” said Ousmane Dembele when joining Borussia Dortmund. “Dortmund are the perfect club for young players, the past has shown that.” Renato Sanches’ words mirrored Dembele’s when discussing why he chose Bayern Munich over Manchester United, while Breel Embolo reportedly rejected the same club in favour of Schalke. Jean-Philippe Mateta (Lyon), Oliver Burke (RB Leipzig) and Gabriel Barbosa (Inter) also spurned Premier League offers, citing a desire for regular football.

 

Many others will surely follow suit. In March, the Daily Mail picked their top ten teenagers in the world, which included Embolo, Dembele and Sanches and suggested potential next destinations for all ten. Manchester United and Arsenal were linked with five, Manchester City four, Chelsea three, Liverpool and Tottenham two and Everton, West Brom and West Ham one. Three have since joined Bundesliga clubs and become regulars, one has played in the Champions Legue for Juventus (Moise Kean) while two moved to the Premier League. Keep a look-out for when Tahith Chong (United) and Lorenzo Gonzalez (City) break into the first teams in Manchester.

 

For all the talk of youth development and coaching standards, the biggest test of an academy is not the improvement of players but their progression to the first team. Competitive football (no, not the Checkatrade) is the most vital part of a young player’s development.

 

By that measure, the Premier League is falling further and further behind, suffocated by its own wealth. The highest level of English football is struggling to provide those teenage kicks.

 

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-no-teenage-kicks-in-premier-league

As I stated earlier scouting and coaching play a massive part. merely playing them if they aren't ready/good enough does them nor their clubs no favours.

So you think there's only one player under twenty in the Premier League who is good enough to have started more than 5 games this season?

 

[joeyt]

Which other players under 20 should have started more than 5 games?

[triggs]

Which other players under 20 should have started more than 5 games?

I don't watch youth teams of Premier League clubs so unfortunately I can't answer that. I'd imagine there's probably more than one though

[madras]

 

 

I don't think Southampton have ever given a young kid a go as a striker though have they?

 

It's an incredibly important position to just give someone a chance, especially when we've got Gayle scoring regularly and Mitrovic not doing terribly

 

Er - they once played a 17 year old against Arsenal and he scored a hat-trick....his name was Shearer I believe...

You know what he's getting at, he means recently (I'd guess since Bale) and I'd guess a bigger reason could be the quality of the kids we are talking about, the coaching they've received etc to get them to that stage, theirs were good enough. It's hardly like we've had floods of kids leave our academy and make it at premiership level even with other clubs.

Not many kids make it without getting lots of games when they're 19/20/21

 

 

They also have to be good enough to get the games.

Are kids in Southampton just naturally better than kids in other parts of England then?

Possibly a better scouting system and better coached or are you saying that we would have had players like they've produced purely by chucking kids in ?

Well we'll never know but it is all about the culture of the club. If kids see guys from the academy getting a chance they'll become more motivated because they'll begin to think that it's possible if they work hard that they'll get a chance too

They'll get that chance if they are good enough.

 

This is bs.

 

The lack of chances given to young English players in the PL is one of the prime reasons there's a dearth of English players.

 

At our club is generally a lack of talent and/or coaching. We haven't developed any significant player with any skill or technique in yonks. I don't think Carroll would've been given the same chance had we not gotten relegated. Subsequently, there's no way he goes for £35m

Aye, just so happened to read this article on F365 which sums it up for me.

 

“It is frustrating but I’m not angry that I’m not playing because I understand it’s difficult,” said Marcus Rashford in September, in response to questions over his lack of Manchester United playing opportunities under Jose Mourinho. “We have a lot of big players and a lot of players in my situation as well who are not getting the minutes they probably thought they deserved to get.”

 

Given those frustrations, Rashford may be surprised to learn that he is one of a kind in the Premier League: a teenager playing regular football.

 

A list of players currently aged under 20 with five or more league appearances in Europe’s top five leagues contains 57 names. Ligue Un is (perhaps predictably) the largest provider, with 22. Next comes the Bundesliga with 15, then Serie A with 12 and La Liga with seven. That makes 56; Rashford is the sole Premier League representative.

 

Earlier this week, the CIES Football Observatory produced a report that extended that statistic across Europe, with similar results. It revealed that 87 teenage footballers had played 60% of their side’s league minutes by the end of November. Rashford (placed in 78th with 62%) is once more the only Premier League player who qualifies.

 

The lack of minutes afforded to young English players is a well-documented but important argument, inevitably framed in the context of our national team’s failures. Yet these latest statistics go beyond patriotic concerns. It is not just domestic teenagers who are unable to gain a foothold in the Premier League, but teenagers of any nationality. That suggests that the issue lies with the league rather than the players.

 

Young Premier League players are left waiting for an exceptional circumstance. Ifs and buts aren’t candy and nuts, but if Anthony Martial had not got injured in the warm-up against FC Midtjylland, Rashford would not have started the game in February. It’s hardly a huge leap to suggest that his chance of regular starts may never have come under Louis van Gaal. Would Jose Mourinho’s arrival have really changed that? His record with young players suggests not.

 

The obvious reaction is to suggest that the use of teenagers correlates with the standard of team or league, thus explaining Ligue Un’s high figure. Firstly, that does not account for the relatively high figures in Serie A and Bundesliga, but also the theory of ‘worse teams use more teenagers’ does not stand up to scrutiny. Nine of Germany’s current top ten are represented in that original list of 57, and three of Serie A’s top six. 

 

The supposition that English clubs loan out their teenagers rather than play them partly accounts for the shortfall. Chelsea have loaned two teenagers to clubs in Europe’s top five leagues (Jeremie Boga and Victorien Angban, both at Granada) but only Boga makes the list of 57. No other Premier League club is represented.

 

Instead, the Eredivisie (now Europe’s 13th-ranked league) has become the temporary home for many. Marlos Moreno, Oleksandr Zinchenko and Enes Unal are merely the Manchester City players currently at risk of a condition we can call Lucas Piazonitis. Signed in March 2011 at the age of 17, Piazon is still a Chelsea player, now on loan at Fulham after spells with Malaga, Vitesse, Eintracht Frankfurt and Reading. It’s too sweeping to say “well if he was good enough, he’d have made it by now”. At a club where Piazon could have been cherished and played, he may have become a better player. Vital years have been spent as a footballing nomad.

 

Nor are the Premier League academies filled with Europe’s best young talent, neither loaned out nor given first-team opportunities. Chelsea are the only top-flight representative to make waves in the UEFA Youth Champions League, with no other English club reaching the semi-finals since the tournament began in 2013/14. This season, both Arsenal and Tottenham were knocked out in the group stages.

 

The simple explanation is that the Premier League’s transfer activity is increasingly focused on developed (or at least developing) players, the enlarged broadcasting deal persuading clubs to pay the premium for finished products. This is the result of a division engorged by rich clubs. Deloitte’s latest money league (for the 2014/15 season) had 15 current Premier League clubs and two Championship clubs in Europe’s top 30 by revenue. If you were given £500 to buy a cake, you wouldn’t be pondering brands of flour, butter and eggs, but whether your delicious treat will have one or two tiers.

 

The Premier League’s chronic short-termism also doesn’t help, where one or two mistakes become back-page proof of your ineptitude. Managers are asked for continuous improvement, to bolt pieces together while running at full speed. Criticism of Bob Bradley this week accused him of an inability to recruit players intelligently before he’s even been given an opportunity to do so. Buying players, not improving or educating them, becomes the prized skill. Young players understandably get overlooked.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Another CIES report on the average age of squads in Europe’s top five leagues had Tottenham as the Premier League’s only representative in the top 15 (in 15th), with Liverpool also in the top 20. Both clubs are coached by managers with an established and commendable commitment to offering young players a chance, but in both cases that philosophy will be tested when the performance of the team comes under scrutiny.

 

You may be thinking that this is a misplaced worry, that the cream will always find a way to rise to the top. Yet there is a question to be asked: Is a Premier League academy the right place for a talented young player?

 

“The way they showed an interest in me and gave me the feeling they really wanted me convinced me,” said Ousmane Dembele when joining Borussia Dortmund. “Dortmund are the perfect club for young players, the past has shown that.” Renato Sanches’ words mirrored Dembele’s when discussing why he chose Bayern Munich over Manchester United, while Breel Embolo reportedly rejected the same club in favour of Schalke. Jean-Philippe Mateta (Lyon), Oliver Burke (RB Leipzig) and Gabriel Barbosa (Inter) also spurned Premier League offers, citing a desire for regular football.

 

Many others will surely follow suit. In March, the Daily Mail picked their top ten teenagers in the world, which included Embolo, Dembele and Sanches and suggested potential next destinations for all ten. Manchester United and Arsenal were linked with five, Manchester City four, Chelsea three, Liverpool and Tottenham two and Everton, West Brom and West Ham one. Three have since joined Bundesliga clubs and become regulars, one has played in the Champions Legue for Juventus (Moise Kean) while two moved to the Premier League. Keep a look-out for when Tahith Chong (United) and Lorenzo Gonzalez (City) break into the first teams in Manchester.

 

For all the talk of youth development and coaching standards, the biggest test of an academy is not the improvement of players but their progression to the first team. Competitive football (no, not the Checkatrade) is the most vital part of a young player’s development.

 

By that measure, the Premier League is falling further and further behind, suffocated by its own wealth. The highest level of English football is struggling to provide those teenage kicks.

 

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-no-teenage-kicks-in-premier-league

As I stated earlier scouting and coaching play a massive part. merely playing them if they aren't ready/good enough does them nor their clubs no favours.

So you think there's only one player under twenty in the Premier League who is good enough to have started more than 5 games this season?

 

Obviously their coaches/managers think so, if not why not play them ?

[triggs]

 

 

I don't think Southampton have ever given a young kid a go as a striker though have they?

 

It's an incredibly important position to just give someone a chance, especially when we've got Gayle scoring regularly and Mitrovic not doing terribly

 

Er - they once played a 17 year old against Arsenal and he scored a hat-trick....his name was Shearer I believe...

You know what he's getting at, he means recently (I'd guess since Bale) and I'd guess a bigger reason could be the quality of the kids we are talking about, the coaching they've received etc to get them to that stage, theirs were good enough. It's hardly like we've had floods of kids leave our academy and make it at premiership level even with other clubs.

Not many kids make it without getting lots of games when they're 19/20/21

 

 

They also have to be good enough to get the games.

Are kids in Southampton just naturally better than kids in other parts of England then?

Possibly a better scouting system and better coached or are you saying that we would have had players like they've produced purely by chucking kids in ?

Well we'll never know but it is all about the culture of the club. If kids see guys from the academy getting a chance they'll become more motivated because they'll begin to think that it's possible if they work hard that they'll get a chance too

They'll get that chance if they are good enough.

 

This is bs.

 

The lack of chances given to young English players in the PL is one of the prime reasons there's a dearth of English players.

 

At our club is generally a lack of talent and/or coaching. We haven't developed any significant player with any skill or technique in yonks. I don't think Carroll would've been given the same chance had we not gotten relegated. Subsequently, there's no way he goes for £35m

Aye, just so happened to read this article on F365 which sums it up for me.

 

“It is frustrating but I’m not angry that I’m not playing because I understand it’s difficult,” said Marcus Rashford in September, in response to questions over his lack of Manchester United playing opportunities under Jose Mourinho. “We have a lot of big players and a lot of players in my situation as well who are not getting the minutes they probably thought they deserved to get.”

 

Given those frustrations, Rashford may be surprised to learn that he is one of a kind in the Premier League: a teenager playing regular football.

 

A list of players currently aged under 20 with five or more league appearances in Europe’s top five leagues contains 57 names. Ligue Un is (perhaps predictably) the largest provider, with 22. Next comes the Bundesliga with 15, then Serie A with 12 and La Liga with seven. That makes 56; Rashford is the sole Premier League representative.

 

Earlier this week, the CIES Football Observatory produced a report that extended that statistic across Europe, with similar results. It revealed that 87 teenage footballers had played 60% of their side’s league minutes by the end of November. Rashford (placed in 78th with 62%) is once more the only Premier League player who qualifies.

 

The lack of minutes afforded to young English players is a well-documented but important argument, inevitably framed in the context of our national team’s failures. Yet these latest statistics go beyond patriotic concerns. It is not just domestic teenagers who are unable to gain a foothold in the Premier League, but teenagers of any nationality. That suggests that the issue lies with the league rather than the players.

 

Young Premier League players are left waiting for an exceptional circumstance. Ifs and buts aren’t candy and nuts, but if Anthony Martial had not got injured in the warm-up against FC Midtjylland, Rashford would not have started the game in February. It’s hardly a huge leap to suggest that his chance of regular starts may never have come under Louis van Gaal. Would Jose Mourinho’s arrival have really changed that? His record with young players suggests not.

 

The obvious reaction is to suggest that the use of teenagers correlates with the standard of team or league, thus explaining Ligue Un’s high figure. Firstly, that does not account for the relatively high figures in Serie A and Bundesliga, but also the theory of ‘worse teams use more teenagers’ does not stand up to scrutiny. Nine of Germany’s current top ten are represented in that original list of 57, and three of Serie A’s top six. 

 

The supposition that English clubs loan out their teenagers rather than play them partly accounts for the shortfall. Chelsea have loaned two teenagers to clubs in Europe’s top five leagues (Jeremie Boga and Victorien Angban, both at Granada) but only Boga makes the list of 57. No other Premier League club is represented.

 

Instead, the Eredivisie (now Europe’s 13th-ranked league) has become the temporary home for many. Marlos Moreno, Oleksandr Zinchenko and Enes Unal are merely the Manchester City players currently at risk of a condition we can call Lucas Piazonitis. Signed in March 2011 at the age of 17, Piazon is still a Chelsea player, now on loan at Fulham after spells with Malaga, Vitesse, Eintracht Frankfurt and Reading. It’s too sweeping to say “well if he was good enough, he’d have made it by now”. At a club where Piazon could have been cherished and played, he may have become a better player. Vital years have been spent as a footballing nomad.

 

Nor are the Premier League academies filled with Europe’s best young talent, neither loaned out nor given first-team opportunities. Chelsea are the only top-flight representative to make waves in the UEFA Youth Champions League, with no other English club reaching the semi-finals since the tournament began in 2013/14. This season, both Arsenal and Tottenham were knocked out in the group stages.

 

The simple explanation is that the Premier League’s transfer activity is increasingly focused on developed (or at least developing) players, the enlarged broadcasting deal persuading clubs to pay the premium for finished products. This is the result of a division engorged by rich clubs. Deloitte’s latest money league (for the 2014/15 season) had 15 current Premier League clubs and two Championship clubs in Europe’s top 30 by revenue. If you were given £500 to buy a cake, you wouldn’t be pondering brands of flour, butter and eggs, but whether your delicious treat will have one or two tiers.

 

The Premier League’s chronic short-termism also doesn’t help, where one or two mistakes become back-page proof of your ineptitude. Managers are asked for continuous improvement, to bolt pieces together while running at full speed. Criticism of Bob Bradley this week accused him of an inability to recruit players intelligently before he’s even been given an opportunity to do so. Buying players, not improving or educating them, becomes the prized skill. Young players understandably get overlooked.

 

There are exceptions, of course. Another CIES report on the average age of squads in Europe’s top five leagues had Tottenham as the Premier League’s only representative in the top 15 (in 15th), with Liverpool also in the top 20. Both clubs are coached by managers with an established and commendable commitment to offering young players a chance, but in both cases that philosophy will be tested when the performance of the team comes under scrutiny.

 

You may be thinking that this is a misplaced worry, that the cream will always find a way to rise to the top. Yet there is a question to be asked: Is a Premier League academy the right place for a talented young player?

 

“The way they showed an interest in me and gave me the feeling they really wanted me convinced me,” said Ousmane Dembele when joining Borussia Dortmund. “Dortmund are the perfect club for young players, the past has shown that.” Renato Sanches’ words mirrored Dembele’s when discussing why he chose Bayern Munich over Manchester United, while Breel Embolo reportedly rejected the same club in favour of Schalke. Jean-Philippe Mateta (Lyon), Oliver Burke (RB Leipzig) and Gabriel Barbosa (Inter) also spurned Premier League offers, citing a desire for regular football.

 

Many others will surely follow suit. In March, the Daily Mail picked their top ten teenagers in the world, which included Embolo, Dembele and Sanches and suggested potential next destinations for all ten. Manchester United and Arsenal were linked with five, Manchester City four, Chelsea three, Liverpool and Tottenham two and Everton, West Brom and West Ham one. Three have since joined Bundesliga clubs and become regulars, one has played in the Champions Legue for Juventus (Moise Kean) while two moved to the Premier League. Keep a look-out for when Tahith Chong (United) and Lorenzo Gonzalez (City) break into the first teams in Manchester.

 

For all the talk of youth development and coaching standards, the biggest test of an academy is not the improvement of players but their progression to the first team. Competitive football (no, not the Checkatrade) is the most vital part of a young player’s development.

 

By that measure, the Premier League is falling further and further behind, suffocated by its own wealth. The highest level of English football is struggling to provide those teenage kicks.

 

http://www.football365.com/news/f365-says-no-teenage-kicks-in-premier-league

As I stated earlier scouting and coaching play a massive part. merely playing them if they aren't ready/good enough does them nor their clubs no favours.

So you think there's only one player under twenty in the Premier League who is good enough to have started more than 5 games this season?

 

Obviously their coaches/managers think so, if not why not play them ?

Because most managers don't trust young players in England and are risk averse to extreme levels