Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Danh1]

1 hour ago, The Prophet said:

It was pretty straightforward why Bruce wasn't wanted. Nothing to do with Sunderland, it's because he was a shit, uninspiring appointment. That's all there is to it really. 

My mates brother used to play for NUFC and was in China with the first team when Bruce was announced. He said that all of the players were laughing at the appointment. Says it all. 

[Geordie Ahmed]

4 hours ago, magvicar said:

At first I agree and arguments can be had about whether Bruce was incompetent or he really did have to alter Rafa's set up.

 

 

Nope, there is no argument to be had, Bruce was shite

 

Only an absolute doylem would suggest otherwise 

[magvicar]

5 hours ago, Chicken Dancer said:

3. he was a fucking shit manager who deserved to be nowhere near the Premier League, let alone Newcastle

He certainly wasn't anywhere near the best as a manager but he wasn't shit, otherwise he would never have managed at the levels he did.

When he came to Newcastle he came with mixed emotions among the Newcastle fan base. 

If Bruce was shit then he has to be lumped into 90% of all managers into that category and it just isn't the case.

 

He was a mixed bag for us and his tenure at the club was simply getting worse and worse and he did end up looking way below the standards he came in with, in my opinion.

 

 

[Chicken Dancer]

Just now, magvicar said:

but he wasn't shit, otherwise he would never have managed at the levels he did.

 

Come on mate, I think others have tried to reason with you and I completely respect your right to a different opinion, but he is and always was shit. I'm starting to think you might be baiting here, and fair play if so.

 

Hull? Wigan? Maybe a season at Sunderland? That's where he's done OK  in recent memory. Let's not pretend there was a queue to get him from Sheff Wed when he came here.

 

As for mixed-opinions? If by mixed you mean you against everyone else then fair enough. He was pretty much universally seen as a shit, cheap, rank appointment symbolic of our owner at the time. 

 

I'd guess 95% of the people I know support NUFC - 0% of them were in favour of the appointment. It was a shocking decision, but I don't begrudge him taking the job.

[magvicar]

5 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 

I don't agree with a lot of that but it's all just opinions.  It's interesting hearing the debate from the other side.  

 

I was left very bitter with Bruce due to:

 

- his mates media support (I'm sure he's a nice guy 1-1 and that has worked for him)

- false Geordie claims

- being very poor when anyone questions him

- complete disregard to tactics and preparation of the team for a particular opponent

- and mostly being completely unprofessional and leaving our squad unfit for a season.  It really did look like he was looking for his 8 million.  Low salary high pay off absolutely stank of Ashley.

 

 

edit: to the point that I have more respect for Pardew and I absolutely hated him at the time.

 

 

 

 

 

I can well understand your bitterness with him.

I wasn't exactly happy with the way things were going later on in his managerial time with us and you're right, his post match comments made me cringe as well.

I was never a fan of him coming but I always back a manager and any player that comes into do a job, until I have something to pick at, which Bruce did eventually give plenty but so did many a manager of Newcastle.

 

Up to now Eddie Howe is up there with the best I've seen at Newcastle and long may it continue.

 

[Kid Icarus]

Holding both the opinion that Rafa's football was tedious and Bruce wasn't shit. Name a better combo.

[magvicar]

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

Bruce was barely professional by the end.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

Maybe it's his weight so he's lower energy and more tired than he used to be - aka lazy - but I know amateurs whose professionalism is way way way over and above Bruce and his clan. The sheer amount of time off, even damning indictments of his own players that they were kind of told to get on with it ('lets play') and very non-detailed suggested he was really complacent and just couldn't give a toss.

That's definitely how it appeared.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

Pardew was slimy and lowered expectations etc but he was still professional.

I thought he did a decent job. He was a bit smug and all that but overall he did a decent job playing decent football with a decent squad of players he assembled on top of what he came into.

I had no issue with him to be fair.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. They knew it was a serious club and treated it as such. Even Souness who was horrid for us, you didn't question his effort, you just questioned his ability and temperament.

We can go right down the rabbit hole with managers and who was this or that or the other.

Even Alan Shearer as a manager for 9 games.

Some fans will simply follow the majority rule on who to hate and others will have their own take on each manager which will differ.

 

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

Bruce had neither the ability, nor the temperament... but worst of all, he didn't even have the effort, which surely is the bare minimum. 

In the end, yes. At the start, he had a lot going for him.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

Then you have his sheer cringiness of his interviews, and his seemingly invincibility in the media and management meant it just killed the spirit completely.

Yep he was cringe-worthy at times and more so towards his last season. Many professionals will have a better insight into Bruce the person than we as fans will.

We obviously see so much but are generally outside looking in with opinions garnered from all kinds of situations that arise within the club.

5 hours ago, kingxlnc said:

 

He was truly the icon for a club that stopped trying, symptomatic of its malaise and neglect, the representative of a rotting corpse. 

I think that started from the top and basically seeped down.

Trying to run Newcastle United on a budget keeps the club alive among the elites but barely. Wants and control for a manager are or were generally offset by the wants and control of the hierarchy and generally issues do arise to the point of no going back.

 

Bruce was massively under pressure and he simply did make all kinds of excuses until the pressure became too much and you could see the life being drained out of him.

[Chris_R]

[magvicar]

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Come on mate, I think others have tried to reason with you and I completely respect your right to a different opinion, but he is and always was shit. I'm starting to think you might be baiting here, and fair play if so.

No reason to bait. Just my opinion and as simple as that.

You say he was shit but where does shit go in terms of managers?

Top 6 or 8 or 10 in the premier league?

Top 2 or 4 or 6 in the championship?

Top 2 or 4 in league one?

Top 2 in league two?

 

If you're putting Bruce into the premier league top 6 category then yes, most people would assume he was shit.

 

All I'm saying is, he wasn't shit and did fine with some clubs and not so fine with others but a shit manager is a manager that doesn't make it very far at all in the footballing world of professionals.

 

I'm just putting it into context.

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Hull? Wigan? Maybe a season at Sunderland? That's where he's done OK  in recent memory. Let's not pretend there was a queue to get him from Sheff Wed when he came here.

I'm not pretending anything.

I wasn't exactly overwhelmed when he was appointed and I'd guiess most fans weren't. But he was and I simply backed him rather than take the easier way and shoot at fish in a barrel.

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

As for mixed-opinions? If by mixed you mean you against everyone else then fair enough. He was pretty much universally seen as a shit, cheap, rank appointment symbolic of our owner at the time. 

Of course. Bad news travels fast so any time he screws up at whetever club then the fans immediately dislike him and he becomes shit. That happens to most managers to be fair, even those that have actually made a good fist of it at some point.

Football and fans come with fickleness and inability to be patient for too long when things don't go right.

14 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

I'd guess 95% of the people I know support NUFC - 0% of them were in favour of the appointment. It was a shocking decision, but I don't begrudge him taking the job.

I wasn't in favour of it either.

[magvicar]

The topic was " would you have Rafa back."

The majority consensus was no.

It tells a bigger story than just Rafa being some top manager for us, because he simply wasn't.

[TRon]

Bruce was a shit manager, being 20 plus years in the game means nothing, it just means most owners don't really know that much about football. This is getting tedious now, by all means if you want to talk him up do it in the Steve Bruce thread, but to be doing it in a thread about Rafa is basically trolling.

[Chicken Dancer]

@magvicar he had a Villa team with Grealish, Abraham et al lingering mid-table in the Championship. More recently, he took a West Brom team from pushing for the playoffs to bottom half.

 

He's got jobs for 20 years for having a decent playing career and being a relative big name in English football. Nothing to do with tactics, shape, philosophy or identity (none of these exist). He's a charlatan who quite frankly is completely finished at any capacity in football, at least at a decent level. You might see him wheeled out as Huddersfield manager in a year or two or something, but that's if he's lucky.

 

He's probably a decent enough fella to have a pint with (not for me personally) but he's pretty much despised at NUFC, SAFC, Villa & both Sheffield clubs. I'm sure there is more. The only places he's probably held in any sort of regard from his managerial career is Hull and Wigan - places where football isn't even their primary sport. Nowt against them at all but they're small clubs he had them punching above their weight, granted.

 

He should never in a million years - Ashley or not - been given the NUFC job in 2019. He's fucking shit and you know it, you just won't admit it because you've went too far and you will die on this hill now, which is fair enough. 

 

Anyways, I don't want to win this battle. I'm outty. Tell these people something they don't know about me.

[Rod]

6 hours ago, Chicken Dancer said:

 

Exactly this, and I didn't pack in my Season Ticket when Benitez left...I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a short while. A combination of the Trust's scheme and especially Bruce getting the job made me chuck a ticket I had for 16 years and over 150 points.

 

He was literally the most typical appointment of the Ashley era so I don't even know why I was surprised. Obviously I wish I still had the ticket now, but it's hard to regret something when you know at the time it was something you felt you had to do to try and initiate change.

Me and the wife did exactly the same.  30 years as season ticket holders.  When Rafa walked we walked but literally sprinted away when Bruce was appointed.

[Rod]

1 hour ago, magvicar said:

He certainly wasn't anywhere near the best as a manager but he wasn't shit, otherwise he would never have managed at the levels he did.

When he came to Newcastle he came with mixed emotions among the Newcastle fan base. 

If Bruce was shit then he has to be lumped into 90% of all managers into that category and it just isn't the case.

 

He was a mixed bag for us and his tenure at the club was simply getting worse and worse and he did end up looking way below the standards he came in with, in my opinion.

 

 

In my opinion he's the worst manager I have seen at Newcastle so that makes him shit!  From being tactically pathetic and literally no idea how to implement certain players in their correct positions to his absolutely disgraceful dialogue with the press/media and him constantly bigging up the opposition no matter who we were playing.  Well I am staggered how any sensible football fan can defend the useless knacker.

[MrRaspberryJam]

17 minutes ago, Rod said:

In my opinion he's the worst manager I have seen at Newcastle so that makes him shit!  From being tactically pathetic and literally no idea how to implement certain players in their correct positions to his absolutely disgraceful dialogue with the press/media and him constantly bigging up the opposition no matter who we were playing.  Well I am staggered how any sensible football fan can defend the useless knacker.

 

Listed Rod I'm delighted you're back from your 5 day bender and I'm even more delighted you're willing to unleash your fury on some poor soul, but would you mind taking it easy on magvicar? He's a canny fella even if he is a wee bit of a Bruce sympathiser. 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by MrRaspberryJam

[Chris_R]

The assumption that because Bruce sometimes managed teams that were mid-table means he's not incompetent is a fucking wild claim.

 

1) Good players instantly get top managerial jobs when they retire. It's bonkers, but it happens all the time with no evidence to suggest they'd be remotely competent.

 

2) Not all clubs are equal. Finishing 10th doesn't make you the 10th best manager. You could have had the greatest squad in the league but you're shit, or the worst squad and you're a genius.

 

3) Even if all teams were equal (which they're not), finishing top proves nothing. If all the teams were managed by actual, literal seagulls for a season - with the seagull pulling names and formations out a hat, squawking at the players pre match and giving post match interviews - one team would still have to finish top, and one would finish bottom. The managers were still bloody seagulls though, so you can't necessarily say the one that wins the league is doing a good job. It might still be shitting all over the place, stealing chips and just making a fucking nuisance of itself.

 

The only way to judge a manager is what he consistently does over his tenure at various clubs, comparing what he inherits to what he leaves. Does he improve teams? Are the fans gutted when he leaves? Does he make a positive difference? To all these questions, where Steve Bruce is concerned, the answer is almost always "no". Most fans of his former clubs, if given the choice, would probably prefer the seagull.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Chris_R

[Skeletor]

6 hours ago, magvicar said:

He certainly wasn't anywhere near the best as a manager but he wasn't shit, otherwise he would never have managed at the levels he did.

When he came to Newcastle he came with mixed emotions among the Newcastle fan base. 

If Bruce was shit then he has to be lumped into 90% of all managers into that category and it just isn't the case.

 

He was a mixed bag for us and his tenure at the club was simply getting worse and worse and he did end up looking way below the standards he came in with, in my opinion.

 

 

 

[midds]

15 years ago I'd have read this horseshit and had a bite, now I just read this horseshit and smile

 

Go me.  

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

On 11/04/2023 at 09:01, magvicar said:

Bruce actually did ok to start with but lost the plot.

 

He did okay whilst having little influence? Then started doing shite after that increased? Funny that.

[brummie]

5 hours ago, Rod said:

In my opinion he's the worst manager I have seen at Newcastle so that makes him shit!  From being tactically pathetic and literally no idea how to implement certain players in their correct positions to his absolutely disgraceful dialogue with the press/media and him constantly bigging up the opposition no matter who we were playing.  Well I am staggered how any sensible football fan can defend the useless knacker.

 

Bruce is a fucking dinosaur, yes, and he made my eyeballs bleed watching my own team, but - and I am not even a Newcastle fan - my times attending Newcastle matches, the managers were Willie McFaul and Colin Suggett.

 

He's surely a better manager than them?

 

And I can't believe I am writing this. 

[Rod]

9 minutes ago, brummie said:

 

Bruce is a fucking dinosaur, yes, and he made my eyeballs bleed watching my own team, but - and I am not even a Newcastle fan - my times attending Newcastle matches, the managers were Willie McFaul and Colin Suggett.

 

He's surely a better manager than them?

 

And I can't believe I am writing this. 

I've had this argument loads of times with friends.  It's all about perspective.  Off the top of my head we are probably talking about footballers like Alan Shoulder, Glen Keeley etc during those periods.  Bruce took over a Rafa team, although not brilliant individuals, were playing to a system where everyone knew their roles in the team.  The team Bruce took over were more than competent and indeed very competitive.  He totally obliterated that well oiled machine and I can't believe I'm writing this and haven't said fecking once.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Rod

[HaydnNUFC]

5 minutes ago, brummie said:

 

Bruce is a fucking dinosaur, yes, and he made my eyeballs bleed watching my own team, but - and I am not even a Newcastle fan - my times attending Newcastle matches, the managers were Willie McFaul and Colin Suggett.

 

He's surely a better manager than them?

 

And I can't believe I am writing this. 

 

McFaul had 34.9% win rate from 149 games, Bruce has a 28.9% win rate in 97 games. McFaul also had his best players, Beardsley and then Gascoigne, sold by the board to either build stands or service club debt. With the exception of that being the tragic summer window of 1988-89 which resulted in us finishing bottom. Me fatha thinks that McFaul maybe could've turned that season around had we not sacked him and been flapping for a manager for months as we were traditionally slow starters under him. Suggett was the caretaker during that manager search before we ended up with Jim Smith.

[brummie]

Fair enough.

 

My memories are faded.

[Rod]

Just now, brummie said:

Fair enough.

 

My memories are faded.

Basically I'm repeating what 99% of fans on here think and that is Bruce was fecking shite.

[Ace]

Think the worst part of Bruce was how he just peddled Ashley’s lines and played on all the media biases against us to try and excuse his incompetence while pretending to be one of the fans.