Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[toon25]

Good point made by @Shays Given Tim Flowers with regards to the defensive solidity/foundations laid by Rafa saving Bacon's bacon in the initial few weeks. Didn't take long to wear off given the absolute gulf in quality of training/tactical organisation

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Sir Bobby said that a managers success could be judged by leaving the club in a better position than when you arrived. By this metric Benitez was a huge success whereas Bruce was a significant failure. 

[Ronaldo]

1 hour ago, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

Sir Bobby said that a managers success could be judged by leaving the club in a better position than when you arrived. By this metric Benitez was a huge success whereas Bruce was a significant failure. 

Nailed it.

[Kilcline]

2 hours ago, toon25 said:

Good point made by @Shays Given Tim Flowers with regards to the defensive solidity/foundations laid by Rafa saving Bacon's bacon in the initial few weeks. Didn't take long to wear off given the absolute gulf in quality of training/tactical organisation

Hazy memory but was the "I'm going to do things my way" poor me rant right before we shipped 7 at Arsenal? 

[andycap]

I've never known a manager come to a club like Bruce did and slag of benitez nearly every week it seemed. 

Whether it was formations or fans liking the fella he loved a good twist. 😂 

[HawK]

Brucey also spent over a year saying he didn't know how to change Rafa's system.

 

Howe came in within 1-2 games and had us playing differently. Took a few games to get a result but the change in style was day/night.

[Optimistic Nut]

Remember when people would pillar his transfer business?

 

Murphy & Schar combined £15m.

 

[CPL]

1 hour ago, Optimistic Nut said:

Remember when people would pillar his transfer business?

 

Murphy & Schar combined £15m.

 

 

I loved Rafa, but he didn't have the best record . Schar is easily the best pound for pound signing, and Murphy has turned out great, but Muto and Lazaar are two examples who were absolutely terrible. 

[Adrian1881]

I will always remember Rafa's chants when we got relegated. He stayed and we returned to EPL. Sh...  so happy that parasite Ashley is gone...

[Optimistic Nut]

2 hours ago, CPL said:

 

I loved Rafa, but he didn't have the best record . Schar is easily the best pound for pound signing, and Murphy has turned out great, but Muto and Lazaar are two examples who were absolutely terrible. 

 

He had little to spend so was always going to have a few dodgy ones. Some of his "dodgy" ones have turned out to be very good players though. 

[CPL]

2 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

He had little to spend so was always going to have a few dodgy ones. Some of his "dodgy" ones have turned out to be very good players though. 

Yea, agreed that his hands were tied during his reign. For every Alonso he discovered at Liverpool, there were a few naff ones also. It just shows how good our recruitment has been so far under Howe. 

[Ronaldo]

4 hours ago, CPL said:

 

I loved Rafa, but he didn't have the best record . Schar is easily the best pound for pound signing, and Murphy has turned out great, but Muto and Lazaar are two examples who were absolutely terrible. 

What did you expect him to do with zero net spend, assemble Barcelona under Pep Mk II? He had to buy cheap players and hope some of them turned out to be significantly better than market value. 

[Kid Icarus]

6 hours ago, CPL said:

 

I loved Rafa, but he didn't have the best record . Schar is easily the best pound for pound signing, and Murphy has turned out great, but Muto and Lazaar are two examples who were absolutely terrible. 

Muto wasn't his choice IIRC, but even then Lazaar and maybe Jesus were the only poor examples in a sea of successful ones, or ones that didn’t work at the time but Rafa has since been vindicated for (Sels, Joselu, Murphy)

 

 

Edited April 8 by Kid Icarus

[Colos Short and Curlies]

I'm sure I've read somewhere that despite not playing Jesus was a big influence on the training ground during the Championship season

[CPL]

27 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Muto wasn't his choice IIRC, but even then Lazaar and maybe Jesus were the only poor examples in a sea of successful ones, or ones that didn’t work at the time but Rafa has since been vindicated for (Sels, Joselu, Murphy)

 

 

 

It's okay to say his transfer business wasn't the best without hating the guy. He did everything he could whilst he was here, and I was gutted when he left. I already stated in the previous post that he had it hard with the state of the club affairs at the time.

 

You can't say Sels and Joselu were successful signings just because they've gone on to be successful at other clubs. 

 

Edit: meant to quote @Ronaldo also but not sure how! 

 

 

 

Edited April 8 by CPL

[The College Dropout]

Always liked Joselu. Limited but an honest player with some ability.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

On 18/08/2018 at 14:19, The College Dropout said:

Joselu is awful. 

Gratuitously petty from me.  

[The College Dropout]

Just now, Shays Given Tim Flowers said:

Gratuitously petty from me.  

I said plenty of nice things about him too

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

 

[Kid Icarus]

2 hours ago, CPL said:

It's okay to say his transfer business wasn't the best without hating the guy. He did everything he could whilst he was here, and I was gutted when he left. I already stated in the previous post that he had it hard with the state of the club affairs at the time.

 

You can't say Sels and Joselu were successful signings just because they've gone on to be successful at other clubs. 

 

Edit: meant to quote @Ronaldo also but not sure how! 

 

 

 

 

 

If I thought his signings were poor I would say. At the time he still had more good signings than bad. Gayle, Ritchie, Hayden, Hanley, Clark, Diame, Yedlin, Daryl Murphy, Atsu, Lejeune, Merino, Dubravka, Schar, Rondon (loan), Kenedy (loan), Fernandez, Manquillo, Almiron were all very good signings considering the restraints that were put on Rafa's purse strings.

 

Of the 'dud' signings that Rafa was responsible for, Sels, Joselu, and Murphy have all gone on to vindicate Rafa's decision to sign them. There's absolutely no reason to ignore hindsight, it's the same as when Jon Dahl Tommasson failed here and then vindicated Dalglish's decision to sign him when he went on to tear it up at AC Milan. 

 

Really, the only signings that were duds then and haven't vindicated Rafa choosing them since then are Jesus Gamez (free), Lazaar (£3m), maybe Slimani on loan, but that again typified the restraints on him. Like you mention, the restraints he had on him with signings were ridiculous. Once we were promoted he was resigned to rumaging through the bargain bins to build a squad, did a good job in the circumstances, and has been even more vindicated with the benefit of hindsight. 

 

 

Edited April 8 by Kid Icarus

[TheBrownBottle]

10 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

If I thought his signings were poor I would say. At the time he still had more good signings than bad. Gayle, Ritchie, Hayden, Hanley, Clark, Diame, Yedlin, Daryl Murphy, Atsu, Lejeune, Merino, Dubravka, Schar, Rondon (loan), Kenedy (loan), Fernandez, Manquillo, Almiron were all very good signings considering the restraints that were put on Rafa's purse strings.

 

Of the 'dud' signings that Rafa was responsible for, Sels, Joselu, and Murphy have all gone on to vindicate Rafa's decision to sign them. There's absolutely no reason to ignore hindsight, it's the same as when Jon Dahl Tommasson failed here and then vindicated Dalglish's decision to sign him when he went on to tear it up at AC Milan. 

 

Really, the only signings that were duds then and haven't vindicated Rafa choosing them since then are Jesus Gamez (free), Lazaar (£3m), maybe Slimani on loan, but that again typified the restraints on him. Like you mention, the restraints he had on him with signings were ridiculous. Once we were promoted he was resigned to rumaging through the bargain bins to build a squad, did a good job in the circumstances, and has been even more vindicated with the benefit of hindsight. 

 

 

 

I’d add Muto to the ‘not good’ list

 

edit: apologies; I can see that Muto was discussed - though I would say that he was Benitez’s signing.  

 

 

Edited April 8 by TheBrownBottle

[Kid Icarus]

8 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’d add Muto to the ‘not good’ list

 

edit: apologies; I can see that Muto was discussed - though I would say that he was Benitez’s signing.  

 

 

 

IIRC it was well publicised that Muto was bought over Rafa's head.

[TheBrownBottle]

3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

IIRC it was well publicised that Muto was bought over Rafa's head.

In all honesty, I don’t remember that being the case - but at the same time, it would ring true in terms of the mess the club was in.

 

Benitez was always a world class coach, but there is a reasonable argument that his transfer nous wasn’t always the greatest before coming to NUFC.  He basically wasn’t backed once we went up, though. 

[Kid Icarus]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

In all honesty, I don’t remember that being the case - but at the same time, it would ring true in terms of the mess the club was in.

 

Benitez was always a world class coach, but there is a reasonable argument that his transfer nous wasn’t always the greatest before coming to NUFC.  He basically wasn’t backed once we went up, though. 

Yeah I remember that argument but again think it's mostly without merit, albeit he obviously wasn't perfect. His weakness at Liverpool was undoubtedly wingers though, he never cracked that despite getting everything else (Aquilani aside) spot on. There's obviously the Barry for Alonso attempt too, but tbf Man City signed him and he was a mainstay in the side that went on to win the league.

[Chris_R]

In:

 

Matz Sels    Goalkeeper    £5 million    2016–17
Matt Ritchie    Right Midfield    £12 million    2016–17
Dwight Gayle    Centre-Forward    £12 million    2016–17
Jesús Gámez    Right-Back    Free transfer    2016–17
Grant Hanley    Centre-Back    £5.5 million    2016–17
Isaac Hayden    Midfield    £2.5 million    2016–17
Mohamed Diamé    Midfield    £4.5 million    2016–17
DeAndre Yedlin    Right-Back    £5 million    2016–17
Ciaran Clark    Centre-Back    £5 million    2016–17
Daryl Murphy    Centre-Forward    £3 million    2016–17
Achraf Lazaar    Left-Back    £2 million    2016–17
Christian Atsu    Left Winger    £6.2 million    2017–18
Jacob Murphy    Right Winger    £10 million    2017–18
Jav.Manquillo    Right-Back    £4.5 million    2017–18
Florian Lejeune    Centre-Back    £8.7 million    2017–18
Joselu        Centre-Forward    £5 million    2017–18
Mikel Merino    Midfield    £6.5 million    2017–18
Martin Dúbravka    Goalkeeper    £4 million    2018–19
Fabian Schär    Centre-Back    £3 million    2018–19
Fed. Fernández    Centre-Back    £6 million    2018–19
Ki Sung-yueng    Midfield    Free transfer    2018–19
Yoshinori Muto    Centre-Forward    £9.5 million    2018–19
Miguel Almirón    Midfield    £21 million    2018–19

 

Total: £140.9

 

Out: (many forced, especially early on after relegation)

 

Geo. Wijnaldum    Midfielder    £25 million    2016–17
Moussa Sissoko    Midfielder    £30 million    2016–17
Daryl Janmaat    Right-Back    £7.5 million    2016–17
Andros Townsend    Winger        £13 million    2016–17
Florian Thauvin    Winger        £9.8 million    2017–18
Siem de Jong    Midfielder    £2 million    2017–18
Matz Sels    Goalkeeper    £3.5 million    2018–19
Alex Mitrović    Striker        £22 million    2018–19
Chancel Mbemba    Centre-Back    £7 million    2018–19
Mikel Merino    Midfielder    £10 million    2018–19
Dwight Gayle    Striker        Loan fee undisc    2018–19

 

Total: £129m

 

(All from ChatGPT so of course there could be mistakes - I don't have time to check it all but it looks about right)

 

Merino had a release clause so we were never getting more than £10m but he's since gone to Arsenal for £30+. We'd not be overjoyed if we sold Murphy for £30m either, it might be a fair price given his age but his output this season means he'd potentially command a fee in that area. Schar we've discussed is one of the best £ for £ signings in our history. Diame was a monster for a season or so, Dubravka has been a fabulous servant and a wonderful bargain. Ritchie was value, as was Almiron. A lot of the rest I don't look back on with any negative memories either - Lejeune, Fernandez, Hayden, Gayle, Manquillo etc. They all played a part and were at least worth their pretty modest fees. Even many of his "flops" have since gone on to have good careers - Sels and Joselu the most obvious.

 

Any criticism is just that he was forced to scrap around in the bargain bin and didn't have a 100% success rate in finding gems. It's hard to get angry that £2m Achraf Lazaar or free transfer Jesús Gámez never really tore it up here. When Howe signs a player for a similar amount, we just go "Punt for the future, not worth factoring in to our thinking" but for Benitez these were players expected to be integral squad members. Are we going to castigate Howe if Harrison Ashby, Garang Kuol and Lloyd Kelly (Seemingly already off) don't make the grade? I hope they do make it of course, but they're the kind of deals Benitez was forced to rely on for immediate results and he had a pretty good success rate.

 

He also had to attract good players to a shit club, where Howe can at least promise the likes of Pope and Burn - affordable fees to Benitez too - that they're making a step up coming here and can challenge at the top of the table. Benitez had Ashley looming over his shoulder and players and agents knew they'd almost certainly never lift any silverwear here, which makes a lot of potential moves - even for bargain players - a hard sell.