Other games (2021/22)

[Guest HTT II]

6 minutes ago, Manxst said:

It’s simply short termism at its finest. Ludicrously expensive contract for an aged player who still performs admirably but is beyond his best years. That extravagant amount of money could and arguably should have been spent on a couple of younger players (or even one Kane type) who would have scored the same goals between them, for less money, and who will stay at the club for longer and provide a better service. 

Or conversely maximise the package of what Ronaldo brings and profit from that with success, but Pirlo, but Ramsey...

But... Ronaldo, a waste of money, a mistake, a hue failure, set Juve back years, me if I’m a supporter rather than get upset about 10% earnings from a German company I’d be honoured to witness one of the GOAT in my club’s colours title or no title. Give your heard a shake, that’s why the ESL was dreamed up FFS!

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by HTT II

[ToonArmy1892]

We got worse when Shearer joined, doesn't make it Shearer's fault.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by ToonArmy1892

[Guest HTT II]

Just now, neesy111 said:

Or you concentrate on building a team to achieve your objectives instead of focusing it on 1 player....

That’s not the failure of Ronaldo though... or the folly of his signing! 

[ponsaelius]

5 minutes ago, HTT II said:

6m in shirt sales revenue to the club in an hour of his signing, should have signed Ramsey instead...

 

They did sign Ramsey too though. On a freebie. Because they'd blown their entire budget for the next 4 years on one player. 

[astraguy]

Rio ferdinand/Mike Ashle/Steve Bruce rolled into one 

[Guest HTT II]

4 minutes ago, ponsaelius said:

They did sign Ramsey too though. On a freebie. Because they'd blown their entire budget for the next 4 years on one player. 

But still spent millions elsewhere, false! 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by HTT II

[Guest HTT II]

5 minutes ago, ponsaelius said:

They did sign Ramsey too though. On a freebie. Because they'd blown their entire budget for the next 4 years on one player. 

Club in signing a player on a free shocker, but paid him absolute ridiculous wages... hmmm! Nah, but still, Ronaldo, what a fucking joke of a signing, huge mistake, would have been better if they give all that money to Pirlo to spend on... who? Ridiculous assertions that Ronaldo signing for Juve has set them back man, honestly  Guarantee their fans don’t see it that way and feel honoured one of the GOAT wears their colours, again title or no title! 

[Guest HTT II]

If only we spent the Shearer money on the reserves... 

[ponsaelius]

The people in this discussion who actually watch Serie A and Juventus regularly have been able to objectively make a reasonable assessment that Ronaldo has scored goals, but that the team has got worse, in a clear and marked decline over the last 3 years in all competitons. His best individual goalscoring season statistically this year has coincided with the teams worst season in terms of actual on pitch results. It's also in terms of actual performances been Ronaldo's worst season as he inevitably declines at this age (and nobody can blame him for that). 

As I have said previously, Juventus have not historically been a club that signed aging star players for big money. They never have been. They have bought players in their prime or brought through young players and made stars. They also never had problem selling star players for big money - be that Zidane or Pogba. Zidane went and Nedved came and the team was more successful. Pogba went and they made a CL final that season. They have also always had a core of Italian players that was the clubs consistent identity. 

The signing of a 33 year old which so fundamentally broke their existing wage structure, to a point to where it absolutely hamstrung their ability to spend properly on the squad - represented a fundamental shift in the clubs identity and transfer policy. This has clearly been to their detriment where it actually matters on the pitch - regardless of other failed signings and failed managerial appointments that followed. 

The above culture shift and resulting economic reality from can be perhaps most clearly summed up with the signing of Chiesa. This is the kind of player they would have signed previously for relatively big money, from another Italian club, but of a good age and on sensible wages. He has undoubtedly been their best performer this season in all the big games - CL, Serie A and in the Coppa Italia final yesterday. However in order to sign him they've had to fudge the books and basically delay most of the transfer fee by a season. This is a direct result of bad squad building and bad fiscal management in previous years - of which Ronaldo, for all his goals, is emblematic of. 

But anyway. This is a boring argument. Because with Ronaldo and Messi fanboys it is seemingly impossible to engage in rational discussion. 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by ponsaelius

[Guest HTT II]

So it comes down to ‘fan boys’ 

[ToonArmy1892]

21 minutes ago, HTT II said:

So it comes down to ‘fan boys’ 

Aye, nowt to do with him being one of the best players of all time. 

[Wullie]

3 hours ago, HTT II said:

If only we spent the Shearer money on the reserves... 

If only we'd spent the Owen money on the reserves.

[Superior Acuña]

I just googled Juventus to see if they were playing cos of this thread (without reading posts properly) and google does some fireworks animation (presumably for winning the coppa). Fuckin Juventus.

[Froggy]

10 hours ago, ponsaelius said:

Of course it is fair. The team has got demonstrably worse year on year since he joined. If they'd spent his 100 million fee and 32 million a year wages on refreshing the team they'd be better off. There is absolutely no doubt about it.

Instead they built their team around Ronaldo to the detriment of on pitch results. At least he's finally managed to beat out Quagliarella and Immobile to the top scorer award though. Happy days for the brand. 

There's so much wrong with this post it's unreal and coming from you it's massively surprising. It's a complete lack of disrespect towards Ronaldo, towards Immobile and Quagliarella, towards Conte and what he's done at Inter, towards the job done at Atalanta who have been improving for years, towards Milan's revival and most importantly, a huge absence of criticism towards Pirlo and the recruitment personnel at Juventus.

Your entire point is basically, well Juve were really good, so they should have stayed really good and they didn't and it's all Ronaldo's fault. That's not how football works and well you know it. 

The biggest misconception here, which you Neesy, Triggs etc. keep trying to peddle is that since they bought Ronaldo they haven't been able to invest in other areas of the team or the team has been built around Ronaldo and hasn't focused anywhere else. Absolute nonsense as I'll outline below. Since signing Ronaldo they've made the following signings:

Bonucci - €35

Cancelo - €40m

Can - free

Rabiot - free (big wages)

Ramsey - free (big wages)

De Ligt - €75

Danilo - €37m

Demiral - €18m

Douglas Costa - €40m

Buffon - free (not sure on wages)

Romero - €31m

Pellegrini - €22m

Chiesa - €10m loan fee, €50m obligation to buy

Morata - €10m loan fee, €45m option to buy

Correira - €10.5m

Mandragora - €10m

Kulusevski - €44m

Ake - £8m

Rovella - €18m+20m in variables.

Also an additional €80m on players under 20 over those three seasons.

So there is it in black and white. They've spent €600m on the squad since Ronaldo arrived. That's them not investing in the squad? Do me a bloody favour. There's €250m there just on bloody defenders! How is that building a team around Ronaldo? One of the worst takes I've ever seen because people people have an issue with him. Messi is better, every knows it, everyone gets it, but for all the issues at Juve, Ronaldo is as far away from one as you can get. He's the only thing keeping them alive at the minute.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by Froggy

[Guest HTT II]

30 minutes ago, Froggy said:

There's so much wrong with this post it's unreal and coming from you it's massively surprising. It's a complete lack of disrespect towards Ronaldo, towards Immobile and Quagliarella, towards Conte and what he's done at Inter, towards the job done at Atalanta who have been improving for years, towards Milan's revival and most importantly, a huge absence of criticism towards Pirlo and the recruitment personnel at Juventus.

Your entire point is basically, well Juve were really good, so they should have stayed really good and they didn't and it's all Ronaldo's fault. That's not how football works and well you know it. 

The biggest misconception here, which you Neesy, Triggs etc. keep trying to peddle is that since they bought Ronaldo they haven't been able to invest in other areas of the team or the team has been built around Ronaldo and hasn't focused anywhere else. Absolute nonsense as I'll outline below. Since signing Ronaldo they've made the following signings:

Bonucci - €35

Cancelo - €40m

Can - free

Rabiot - free (big wages)

Ramsey - free (big wages)

De Ligt - €75

Danilo - €37m

Demiral - €18m

Douglas Costa - €40m

Buffon - free (not sure on wages)

Romero - €31m

Pellegrini - €22m

Chiesa - €10m loan fee, €50m obligation to buy

Morata - €10m loan fee, €45m option to buy

Correira - €10.5m

Mandragora - €10m

Kulusevski - €44m

Ake - £8m

Rovella - €18m+20m in variables.

Also an additional €80m on players under 20 over those three seasons.

So there is it in black and white. They've spent €600m on the squad since Ronaldo arrived. That's them not investing in the squad? Do me a bloody favour. There's €250m there just on bloody defenders! How is that building a team around Ronaldo? One of the worst takes I've ever seen because people people have an issue with him. Messi is better, every knows it, everyone gets it, but for all the issues at Juve, Ronaldo is as far away from one as you can get. He's the only thing keeping them alive at the minute.

There in black and white for all to see, but aye, Ronaldo man, what a fucking mistake of a signing he was for them though...

[Guest HTT II]

6 hours ago, Wullie said:

If only we'd spent the Owen money on the reserves.

If only we never bought the cunt in the first place.

[ponsaelius]

I don't see what that list of players does to refute anything that I've said. It is hardly a net spend as in the same time they've sold over 400 million euros worth of players. And the two years prior to signing Ronaldo they'd made a profit on transfers. 

In the economics of current Italian football dropping 250 million euros across 4 seasons on one player (who will ultimately leave on a free) is undoubtedly a poor allocation of resources and it has contributed significantly to making the team worse. Last summer they basically signed 3 players on loan (as you've included in your list) because they couldn't afford to stretch to buy them upfront.

"He's the only thing keeping them alive at the minute". He's really not. His 1 goal from open play against the top 4 teams, and his two assists in the league this season, is that of a player who has simply scored goals against lots of poor sides. Lots of average players manage to score plenty of goals in Serie A so it would not have been difficult for Juventus to get somebody else to do the same, for far less money, and have them in exactly the same place in the league. 

Ronaldo was signed for them to do better in the CL - and that hasn't happened. And they've at the same time gone backwards domestically. I don't have a problem with him as a player at all - he's certainly still a very good player. He's just not at his current age worth anywhere near they've paid for him - particularly in terms of the wages. And I'm also absolutely delighted that they made the decision to completely hamstrung themselves with him because they're a hateful club, and it's great for the competitiveness of the league.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by ponsaelius

[ponsaelius]

In a lot of ways it has been the perfect signing if you're a fan of Italian football. It was good for the league's image while at the same time being an act of hubristic self-sabotage to the betterment of competitiveness

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by ponsaelius

[Froggy]

13 minutes ago, ponsaelius said:

I don't see what that list of players does to refute anything that I've said. It is hardly a net spend as in the same time they've sold over 400 million euros worth of players. And the two years prior to signing Ronaldo they'd made a profit on transfers. 

In the economics of current Italian football dropping 250 million euros across 4 seasons on one player is undoubtedly a poor allocation of resources and it has contributed significantly to making the team worse. Last summer they basically signed 3 players on loan (as you've included in your list) because they couldn't afford to stretch to buy anybody else.

"He's the only thing keeping them alive at the minute". He's really not. His 1 goal from open play against the top 4 teams, and his two assists in the league this season, is that of a player who has simply scored goals against lots of poor sides. Lots of average players manage to score plenty of goals in Serie A so it would not have been difficult for Juventus to get somebody else to do the same, for far less money, and have them in exactly the same place in the league. 

Ronaldo was signed for them to do better in the CL - and that hasn't happened. And they've at the same time gone backwards domestically. I don't have a problem with him as a player at all - he's certainly still a very good player. He's just not at his current age worth anywhere near they've paid for him. And I'm also absolutely delighted that they made the decision to completely hamstrung themselves with him because they're a hateful club, and it's great for the league's competitiveness of the league.

We will agree to disagree. I completely respect where you're coming from but can't get behind any of it at all. If I was to point the finger it would be towards the recruitment both with managers and players. They signed Rabiot and Ramsey to huge wages and they arguably didn't need either. Bonucci and Chiellini are ageing. I've said above they spent an absolute fortune on defensive players and none of them have been overly successful, even De Ligt. 

One thing we'll both agree on I'm sure is that they're in huge trouble now. A lot of players to shift and a huge rebuilding job at hand with a manager not equipped to deal with it. Ronaldo will almost certainly be gone soon. France maybe to "complete" another country.

[54]

I think its quite fair to say Ronaldo has been a poor signing to be honest, his stats are great in the league, there is no doubt about that, but the fact of the matter is he was bought in to win the Champions League, and in the three years he's been there they've lost to Porto & Lyon in the last 16, as well as Ajax in the last 8. So the fact they've not even made it to the semi-final, shows the signing was a bit of a failure, irrespective of what he's done in domestic competition. 

[ponsaelius]

Don't get me wrong it's certainly not anywhere near the only bad decision they've made. But on the defenders front. Bonucci they didn't actually buy for 35 million - it was a straight swap with Mattia Caldara who was ludicrously also valued at 35 million (with Higuain also farmed out on loan), and even that was less than they sold him to Milan for a year earlier. Cancelo they sold for more than they bought him for. De Ligt if they were to sell on the open market tomorrow they'd get their money back and possibly more - even taking into account Covid depreciation. 

That is the difference with the Ronaldo signing. It's a 250 million euros sunk cost that is never coming back. If this was PSG it wouldn't matter - but Juventus are not PSG. They have an economic reality to deal with. They're a big club but one that has always built teams by buying and selling. And the buying and selling aspect of that team building has had to shift for the worse in part because of what the Ronaldo signing did to their short-medium term finances. 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2021 by ponsaelius

[Froggy]

2 minutes ago, 54 said:

I think its quite fair to say Ronaldo has been a poor signing to be honest, his stats are great in the league, there is no doubt about that, but the fact of the matter is he was bought in to win the Champions League, and in the three years he's been there they've lost to Porto & Lyon in the last 16, as well as Ajax in the last 8. So the fact they've not even made it to the semi-final, shows the signing was a bit of a failure, irrespective of what he's done in domestic competition. 

I just think this is incredibly unfair to pin this on Ronaldo. It's like calling Pep a failure at City because he hasn't won the CL and that's why they brought him in. It's an elite competition. Losing to Porto and Lyon was pretty poor but it happens. Pep and City who many regard as the best side in the world have went out of the competition to Monaco, Lyon and Spurs in the last few years. Again, it happens.

 

 

[triggs]

3 minutes ago, Froggy said:

I just think this is incredibly unfair to pin this on Ronaldo. It's like calling Pep a failure at City because he hasn't won the CL and that's why they brought him in. It's an elite competition. Losing to Porto and Lyon was pretty poor but it happens. Pep and City who many regard as the best side in the world have went out of the competition to Monaco, Lyon and Spurs in the last few years. Again, it happens.

 

 

You're ignoring that they've also got worse every season domestically and its not like Pep at all as Juve instantly went from top 2 or 3 teams in Europe to getting beaten by relative minnows each season

[Froggy]

7 minutes ago, ponsaelius said:

Don't get me wrong it's certainly not anywhere near the only bad decision they've made. But on the defenders front. Bonucci they didn't actually buy for 35 million - it was a straight swap with Mattia Caldara who was ludicrously also valued at 35 million (with Higuain also farmed out on loan), and even that was less than they sold him to Milan for a year earlier. Cancelo they sold for more than they bought him for. De Ligt if they were to sell on the open market tomorrow they'd get their money back and possibly more - even taking into account Covid depreciation. 

That is the difference with the Ronaldo signing. It's a 250 million euros sunk cost that is never coming back. If this was PSG it wouldn't matter - but Juventus are not PSG. They have an economic reality to deal with. They're a big club but one that has always built teams but by buying and selling. And the buying and selling aspect of that team building has had to shift for the worse in part because of what the Ronaldo signing did to their short-medium term finances. 

Agree with all of this except for the sunk cost statement. I would love to know the figures, but Ronaldo has made Juventus an absolute fortune as well. They've signed new sponsorship deals since he arrived, they've sold a ridiculous amount of Ronaldo shirts, their social media presence has rocketed by 300-400% which allows them to market a lot more products.

He has obviously cost them money overall, but I would say there other players there that are more of a drain than him. Ramsey for example on £400,000 who has no marketable assets whatsoever has probably cost Juventus more money than Ronaldo has, and with zero benefits.

[Froggy]

1 minute ago, triggs said:

You're ignoring that they've also got worse every season domestically and its not like Pep at all as Juve instantly went from top 2 or 3 teams in Europe to getting beaten by relative minnows each season

I'm not ignoring anything. They won the league the last two years. Last year they took their foot off the gas massively as the league was basically won two months before the end of the season and they could afford to lose 3 of the last 4 or 5 games.

This year is a very poor result in the league. More on Pirlo than anyone else IMO, and a lot of the Serie A sides have performed very well this year. If Juve got someone like Allegri in with the same squad they'd be right back to at least second place I reckon.