Graeme Jones

[HaydnNUFC]

Using Hendrick as a sole argument as to why the squad is 'awful' is incredibly shortsighted imo. There's a nucleus of a alright PL side there iyam. Needs a few tweaks but a whole new manager and coaching set up. The prick holds every team that he manages back with the exception of Hull.

 

Not many players have been with us for 5 years as the only additions for a decent wedge were made after Benitez left. That's no fault of theirs. The players here for 5 years were signed for the Championship and have yet to be flogged due to neglect by the ownership. Hence why they're still here.

 

Wilson, ASM, Almiron when used properly, Willock, Schär, Lewis once he receives decent coaching, Fraser at a stretch plus the likes of Murphy, Manquillo, Hayden and perhaps the Longstaffs as squad players is the basis of a midtable PL, non relegation worrying side.

 

Bruce brings them back down to being perennial strugglers. Ashley's neglect of the playing staff stemming back to January 2017 is a gargantuan part of why so many players from 2016-17 are still prominently featuring now. But I'll die on the hill that the options we have are canny for this level and the manager is holding them back tenfold. Someone like Howe would get far more out of this group.

[HaydnNUFC]

1 hour ago, Yorkie said:

I think 18/19 was easily a better first team and squad tbh. The only player from today who's more talented than anyone from then is ASM. There's an argument for Wilson of course but his and Rondon's contributions are pretty evenly matched. 

 

It was still mid-tableish but there was actually some competent depth in basically all positions, plenty of balance, Shlongstaff wasn't total bobbins, Dubravka not constantly injured, Ritchie at LWB wasn't the failure it is now, Almiron (/the attack) all worked in tandem, and the three centre-backs complemented each other incredibly well too. 

 

Build on that with a couple of key additions and we were rocking and rolling. So close. 

 

Wilson had 12 goals and 5 assists in 23 starts last season. Rondon had 11 goals and 7 assists in 30 starts in 18-19. Enormous if but if Wilson had stayed fit or started the same amount of games as Rondon his output is greater imo.

 

Anyway, for me 18-19 is probably very similar to now tbh, definitely not a better first team and squad. It's more or less the same, swap Rondon for Wilson and Perez for ASM. Ki for Willock and Diame for, well, nee one. Its more or less the same side. But that side had Benitez, he made those players far more than the sum of their parts. Bruce is the antithesis of that.

[Consortium of one]

4 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said:

Using Hendrick as a sole argument as to why the squad is 'awful' is incredibly shortsighted imo. There's a nucleus of a alright PL side there iyam. Needs a few tweaks but a whole new manager and coaching set up. The prick holds every team that he manages back with the exception of Hull.

 

Not many players have been with us for 5 years as the only additions for a decent wedge were made after Benitez left. That's no fault of theirs. The players here for 5 years were signed for the Championship and have yet to be flogged due to neglect by the ownership. Hence why they're still here.

 

Wilson, ASM, Almiron when used properly, Willock, Schär, Lewis once he receives decent coaching, Fraser at a stretch plus the likes of Murphy, Manquillo, Hayden and perhaps the Longstaffs as squad players is the basis of a midtable PL, non relegation worrying side.

 

Bruce brings them back down to being perennial strugglers. Ashley's neglect of the playing staff stemming back to January 2017 is a gargantuan part of why so many players from 2016-17 are still prominently featuring now. But I'll die on the hill that the options we have are canny for this level and the manager is holding them back tenfold. Someone like Howe would get far more out of this group.

My point being that the likes of Hendrick, Krafth, Gayle, Shelvey, Big Jow and Clark are taking away positions on the 25 man from (potentially) better players.

 

That too goes back to Ashley's penny pinching.

 

I think we both can agree that Rafa, even with the exact same players, would be getting miles more out of this squad.

[Optimistic Nut]

4 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Wilson had 12 goals and 5 assists in 23 starts last season. Rondon had 11 goals and 7 assists in 30 starts in 18-19. Enormous if but if Wilson had stayed fit or started the same amount of games as Rondon his output is greater imo.

 

Anyway, for me 18-19 is probably very similar to now tbh, definitely not a better first team and squad. It's more or less the same, swap Rondon for Wilson and Perez for ASM. Ki for Willock and Diame for, well, nee one. Its more or less the same side. But that side had Benitez, he made those players far more than the sum of their parts. Bruce is the antithesis of that.

Rondon brought so much to Perez though for example. Would be interesting to compare Rondon & Perez combined with Wilson & ASM?

[HaydnNUFC]

15 minutes ago, Consortium of one said:

My point being that the likes of Hendrick, Krafth, Gayle, Shelvey, Big Jow and Clark are taking away positions on the 25 man from (potentially) better players.

 

That too goes back to Ashley's penny pinching.

 

I think we both can agree that Rafa, even with the exact same players, would be getting miles more out of this squad.

 

100%. I'd take us being winless until Spurs if it meant Bruce was jettisoned and Howe brought in. This squad is capable getting ~48 points a season imo, under the right manager.

[HaydnNUFC]

3 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

Rondon brought so much to Perez though for example. Would be interesting to compare Rondon & Perez combined with Wilson & ASM?

 

ASM's numbers in terms of the stats are poor. Think he's only got around, 4 goals and 3 assists in each of his seasons here so far? But he's integral to this side. Rondon and Perez were always on the same wavelength, and Perez afaik was never injured. No idea if Perez needed someone like Rondon to play with either, given how Leicester fans think of him.

[St. Maximin]

2 hours ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

100%. I'd take us being winless until Spurs if it meant Bruce was jettisoned and Howe brought in. This squad is capable getting ~48 points a season imo, under the right manager.

Yeah I would say so too but I think when you consider our whole squad, it’s still worryingly thin in terms of adequate cover. Take the star players out and you have Championship at best players covering. I still don’t think we’re much different to the weakest teams - even the likes of Wolves, Southampton, Brighton et al were below us last season and had plenty of players we’d love to have in our starting line-up/bench. 
 

Not defending Bruce’s bizarre/non-existent tactics, but 12th was an overachievement last year when you consider that ASM and Wilson missed plenty of games each. It’s only a mid-table squad in the same way the six teams below us could easily have been also.  

 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by St. Maximin

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, St. Maximin said:

Yeah I would say so too but I think when you consider our whole squad, it’s still worryingly thin in terms of adequate cover. Take the star players out and you have Championship at best players covering. I still don’t think we’re much different to the weakest teams - even the likes of Wolves, Southampton, Brighton et al were below us and had plenty of players we’d love to have in our starting line-up/bench. 
 

Not defending Bruce’s bizarre/non-existent tactics, but 12th was an overachievement last year when you consider that ASM and Wilson missed plenty of games each. 

 

You could say, "if you take out their best players they wouldn't be as good" about any team in world football though. The cover is shit, but when he has those players at his disposal we should be doing far better.

 

Can't think of many players at Southampton I would take. Ward-Prowse, Armstrong perhaps? Even still he doesn't get ahead of Wilson. Redmond? He played well when he came on on Saturday but is he not a sideways step from the like of Fraser who we have yet to see much of? Wolves, granted, you'd have Jimenez, Neves, Traore maybe, Coady, possibly a few others. Brighton? Bissouma and that's it for me. The more we stand still in the transfer market the more those sides will get better than us however.

 

Wilson started 23 games last season, but he played against Brighton at home. Away to Sheffield United, Brentford, Leeds, plenty of shockers where he was having the ball hoofed up to his neck due to backward and outrageous tactics and formations. We're probably lucky to get 25+ starts out of ASM, granted. But 12th isn't an overachievement for this lot, its probably par for the course but it papered over the gaping cracks such as 2 wins in 22 or whatever it was. And that was down to Bruce. 

[nbthree3]

Bruce has overachieved massively with Newcastle based on the underlying stats... but the drawback is despite that we haven't actually improved? We've managed to defeat most reasoned and logical predictions to be where we were before he came and that's seen as a gigantic success to the mainstream media. Just because we aren't finishing where stats suggest we should be (bottom 3) We've already had 2 years of ~45 points on top of the 2 years of the same record before that. 

 

19/20 we should have been relegated. Dubravka miraculous that year. Last season it was Wilson and Willock. No sign whose individual talent saves him this year but there's enough in the team to survive probably.

 

Only at Newcastle can the fact a glance at the table suggests stability wipes away any rightful criticism of the real regression we've witnessed - especially the defence which isn't a personnel problem imo

[St. Maximin]

1 minute ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

You could say, "if you take out their best players they wouldn't be as good" about any team in world football though. The cover is shit, but when he has those players at his disposal we should be doing far better.

 

Can't think of many players at Southampton I would take. Ward-Prowse, Armstrong perhaps? Even still he doesn't get ahead of Wilson. Redmond? He played well when he came on on Saturday but is he not a sideways step from the like of Fraser who we have yet to see much of? Wolves, granted, you'd have Jimenez, Neves, Traore maybe, Coady, possibly a few others. Brighton? Bissouma and that's it for me. The more we stand still in the transfer market the more those sides will get better than us however.

 

Wilson started 23 games last season, but he played against Brighton at home. Away to Sheffield United, Brentford, Leeds, plenty of shockers where he was having the ball hoofed up to his neck due to backward and outrageous tactics and formations. We're probably lucky to get 25+ starts out of ASM, granted. But 12th isn't an overachievement for this lot, its probably par for the course but it papered over the gaping cracks such as 2 wins in 22 or whatever it was. And that was down to Bruce. 

This is true but inevitably you will need adequate cover for injuries and our options were seriously poor when the few genuinely great players were injured.

 

I think there were plenty of other decent players in those teams and also the likes of Palace and even Fulham crazily 17 points below us (was thinking Ings for example as this was last season), but those aside I think these teams had so much more depth that weak PL players could slot in without looking too badly exposed. Our starting XI I’d say is top 12, but we had players like Shelvey, Joelinton, Ritchie, Clark, Carroll, Hendrick and Gayle getting way too much pitch time for their ability, at times with a few on at the same time. I appreciate coaching and tactics did have an issue in not helping their performances. 
 

12th isn’t an overachievement on paper for our squad, but given the injuries we had I think it probably was given how much we rely on Wilson and ASM, plus our better centre-backs. The performances were of course dreadful by and large and perhaps Bruce and his team contributed to our injury problems, when you consider how much better off we were under Rafa. 

[HaydnNUFC]

A lot of 2019-20 was unsustainable. Shelvey and our defenders were scoring almost all of our goals, Dubravka tended to have blinders but pre-COVID we were fairly solid defensively and that to fall back on. Especially at SJP.

 

After lockdown and the restart of football we've been mostly a mess at the back. Since football restarted in June 2020, we've kept 3 clean sheets at home. Over 23 home games. That's absolutely rancid. 

 

Last season our goalscoring improved; we scored 38 goals in 2019-20, 46 last season which is our highest total since 2011-12. But defensively we're a mess, yet Bruce continues to play defensive/more conservative football in spite of conceding goals. We've played 3 centre halves with wing backs in our first 3 games this season and conceded 8 goals. A decent manager would be able to improve this, I'm convinced. If we can score 46 goals last season yet still be as shit as we were for large parts of it, then surely someone who does 'do tactics' and can set the team up correctly with the right players in the right positions we'd improve at the back, look fitter and be a few points and places better off. But that won't change until Bruce and his staff get the bullet and fuck knows when that's going to happen.

[HaydnNUFC]

2 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

This is true but inevitably you will need adequate cover for injuries and our options were seriously poor when the few genuinely great players were injured.

 

I think there were plenty of other decent players in those teams and also the likes of Palace and even Fulham crazily 17 points below us (was thinking Ings for example as this was last season), but those aside I think these teams had so much more depth that weak PL players could slot in without looking too badly exposed. Our starting XI I’d say is top 12, but we had players like Shelvey, Joelinton, Ritchie, Clark, Carroll, Hendrick and Gayle getting way too much pitch time for their ability, at times with a few on at the same time. I appreciate coaching and tactics did have an issue in not helping their performances. 
 

12th isn’t an overachievement on paper for our squad, but given the injuries we had I think it probably was given how much we rely on Wilson and ASM, plus our better centre-backs. The performances were of course dreadful by and large and perhaps Bruce and his team contributed to our injury problems, when you consider how much better off we were under Rafa. 

 

Fair enough, but also as you say given our injury record under Bruce compared to what it was under Benitez then a new, better manager would also be able to improve that side of things. At this point I'd tear your hand off for Howe.

[nbthree3]

Gone 

 (but only from England!) 

[huss9]

our new manager.

[Optimistic Nut]

Yeah I definitely think he’s got his eye on the Head Coach role. Going from experience a caretaker manager normally means at least the end of the season under Ashley since Keegan.

[buzza]

Would have him in an instant over Bwucie. Anything would be better (although mr. lickspittle comes to mind after pardew)?

[Dokko]

28 minutes ago, Optimistic Nut said:

Yeah I definitely think he’s got his eye on the Head Coach role. Going from experience a caretaker manager normally means at least the end of the season under Ashley since Keegan.

Got to be made official after 20 games due to PL rules...might be less like 10 or 15, can't quite remember. 

 

Think it was brought in after we fucked on with carver

 

[Ben]

Jones off to Barcelona ? 

[Fantail Breeze]

19 minutes ago, Ben said:

Jones off to Barcelona ? 

 

Based on a link Lee Ryder has made up himself  

 

Apparently Martinez may go to Barca if Koeman is sacked and if that happens, he then may try and take Jones with him.

 

Lots of if, buts and maybes and impressive to write a full article based on nothing. 

[Optimistic Nut]

He’s taken him every job he’s had so it’s a high chance he’d go there if Martinez does.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

3 hours ago, Ben said:

Jones off to Barcelona ? 

Hopefully. 

[Guest HTT II]

It will be an honour to see him at Barca…

[gjohnson]

On 23/09/2021 at 11:33, HTT II said:

It will be an honour to see him at Barca…

They're welcome to him....being slightly better than Bruce doesn't make you good.

 

Then again Barca are lining up with Luuk 'cant kick a ball' de Jong these days

[Dr Jinx]

Martinez won’t go near Barca, it’s total poison that club at the minute. They’ll be lucky to finish in the top 4 the way they’re playing, you’d be mad to take that job if you have other opportunities which he will have plenty of.

[Dokko]

18 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said:

Martinez won’t go near Barca, it’s total poison that club at the minute. They’ll be lucky to finish in the top 4 the way they’re playing, you’d be mad to take that job if you have other opportunities which he will have plenty of.

 

Pep leaves in 2023. He should bring it forward a year and actually earn the best manager in the world tag by bringing the club back to life and top of the elite. Got some good younguns coming through, its not an impossible task if everyone is pulling in the same direction.