Joe Willock has not trained yet but is making 'good progress' (Howe)

[Palestoon]

Problem with Willock is hes ok at everything but doesn't do anything really well. We need to replace him either with a true #10 who can get on the ball and consistently create for himself or others. Or, get a dedicated DM that would allow Bruno to play further forward, and allow Joelinton the free license to get around the pitch and cause havoc with his pressing and physicality 

[ExiledGeordie]

He just doesn’t impose himself on games at all. He looks good when everyone is playing well but he’s not enough of a difference maker in his own right. He’s made runs into the box previously but you don’t see that at the moment.

[Kanj]

He doesn’t shoot or pass with nearly any intention or composure. It’s all hope and hit or he’s taking ages to find a pass. First match of season he looked way more like his old self but hasn’t looked that way since. When he is getting a chance in the box he’s snatching at them and sky’ng over.

[TRon]

5 minutes ago, Kanji said:

He doesn’t shoot or pass with nearly any intention or composure. It’s all hope and hit or he’s taking ages to find a pass. First match of season he looked way more like his old self but hasn’t looked that way since. When he is getting a chance in the box he’s snatching at them and sky’ng over.

 

This is the time he would have been dropped if we had more options in midfield.

[Smal]

He is really not doing anything in games and it's an issue. We have lots of possession but the metrics you'd expect to be high for a midfielder are not. A select few:

 

Progressive passes per 90:

KT - 6.57

ASM - 6.32

Bruno - 5.00

Joelinton - 3.86

Longstaff - 3.78

Willock is way down the list with 1.72. 

 

Shot creating actions p/90:

ASM - 5.79

Bruno - 3.71

Longstaff - 2.95
Joelinton - 2.71

Willock is again way off with 1.72.

 

Carries p/90:

Bruno - 50

ASM - 43.2

Joelinton - 38

Longstaff - 35.1

Willock - 31.4

 

Lowest of all our midfielders in touches p/90 too. Look at his passing numbers across the PL this season so far. We are 8th in the league for average possession (50.7%) so there's no reason for them to be this bad:

 

 

 

Doesn't get on the ball and doesn't do anything when he does. I'd put Longstaff or Anderson in for him until Shelvey's back.

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Smal

[Tiresias]

Yeah feels a passenger in the team currently, I am not sure he is suited to the team as is, if we are in counter attacking mode sure but it has been a long time since he has been in good form. We are so lacking in midfield and I know its maybe too soon but I would consider playing Anderson instead if he's fit (anyone know when he's back)

[KaKa]

2 hours ago, Smal said:

He is really not doing anything in games and it's an issue. We have lots of possession but the metrics you'd expect to be high for a midfielder are not. A select few:

 

Progressive passes per 90:

KT - 6.57

ASM - 6.32

Bruno - 5.00

Joelinton - 3.86

Longstaff - 3.78

Willock is way down the list with 1.72. 

 

Shot creating actions p/90:

ASM - 5.79

Bruno - 3.71

Longstaff - 2.95
Joelinton - 2.71

Willock is again way off with 1.72.

 

Carries p/90:

Bruno - 50

ASM - 43.2

Joelinton - 38

Longstaff - 35.1

Willock - 31.4

 

Lowest of all our midfielders in touches p/90 too. Look at his passing numbers across the PL this season so far. We are 8th in the league for average possession (50.7%) so there's no reason for them to be this bad:

 

 

 

Doesn't get on the ball and doesn't do anything when he does. I'd put Longstaff or Anderson in for him until Shelvey's back.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow. Hadn't even bothered to look this deeply into the numbers when I've been critical of his performances, but I'm really not surprised, because I can see it from watching the games.

 

It's really alarming because he's supposed to be the most forward thinking midfielder when he's in the team. The fact Longstaff has mostly played deeper and surpasses him in all of those metrics is really unacceptable to be honest.

 

I'm often accused of having a go at Willock while not saying anything about Longstaff, well as the numbers show, that's because Longstaff has been outplaying him, while filing in playing that deeper position by the way.

 

I've said it before that if Longstaff starts in that number 8 role ahead of Willock, he'll get more assists and goals, especially with the way we use the ball now.

[gbandit]

Those stats are rough, I’m a Willock fan but I think he needs to play in a high-possession side that moves the ball quickly so that he can make runs to get on the end of the ball. He’s not good enough with the ball at his feet to play a CM role and he’s not great at defensive work other than pressing and nipping stray balls away. If we can’t get in behind teams then he’s fairly redundant unfortunately. I still hope it can work out for him

[Happinesstan]

2 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

Wow. Hadn't even bothered to look this deeply into the numbers when I've been critical of his performances, but I'm really not surprised, because I can see it from watching the games.

 

It's really alarming because he's supposed to be the most forward thinking midfielder when he's in the team. The fact Longstaff has mostly played deeper and surpasses him in all of those metrics is really unacceptable to be honest.

 

I'm often accused of having a go at Willock while not saying anything about Longstaff, well as the numbers show, that's because Longstaff has been outplaying him, while filing in playing that deeper position by the way.

 

I've said it before that if Longstaff starts in that number 8 role ahead of Willock, he'll get more assists and goals, especially with the way we use the ball now.

Same here. But it does go to show that stats can paint the picture you want, because I don't think he's been as bad, comparatively, to those other players.

I honestly think he struggles to read the game, hence why his time under [run around and get into the box] Bruce was so prolific. I think he'd be great coming on as a sub, and doing just that. But I don't think that will help to develop him. Maybe persisting with him is the right thing to do in the long term. 

I guess we'll have to wait to see. I do think Bournemouth was his best performance so far, so there is hope.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I don't rate him at all, I don't know what his strengths are meant to be. Certainly he's not well suited to being a CM in a 3.

 

In hindsight we probably shouldn't have signed him after his loan, but I guess we didn't have anyone else's phone number at the time.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by AyeDubbleYoo

[TRon]

I was at that game and those stats don't seem to reflect what I saw. His shooting was abysmal, but he was trying to create spaces and put people in, either with a pass or sometimes a dummy. Joelinton looked a lot worse on the day, he was giving the ball away, and not so successful at winning the ball as usual.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Just now, TRon said:

I was at that game and those stats don't seem to reflect what I saw. His shooting was abysmal, but he was trying to create spaces and put people in, either with a pass or sometimes a dummy. Joelinton looked a lot worse on the day, he was giving the ball away, and not so successful at winning the ball as usual.

 

I'm not convinced Joelinton is going to be a PL central. midfielder either TBH, we need to sign 2.

[Yorkie]

5 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I don't rate him at all, I don't know what his strengths are meant to be. Certainly he's not well suited to being a CM in a 3.

 

In hindsight we probably shouldn't have signed him after his loan, but I guess we didn't have anyone else's phone number at the time.

 

Yeah, it was a poor, thoughtless signing, as most of them were during the Bruce era. He was initially just an extra body in that January but turned out to be an unexpected saviour, so Bruce pushed to keep him, that's all. There was no real thought as to his actual development. Obviously he's in much, much better hands with Howe but still, he either doesn't fit or just isn't that talented. Would like to see him out of the team from now on tbh; he offers nothing. If we're sticking with the same system then put Longstaff in and push Bruno forward. 

[The College Dropout]

All those stats would be fine if he was useful in the box in term of finishing or final ball.

 

He gets into decent positions in the box... but... nothing.

[TRon]

20 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

I'm not convinced Joelinton is going to be a PL central. midfielder either TBH, we need to sign 2.

 

We need to accept we are putting a lot of expectation on players who don't really have that much pedigree. Joelinton was not bought as a midfielder so it's not surprising he has games where he looks less accomplished in that role. Willock was a 21 year old reserve from Arsenal. He should really be on the bench for us as well, when he's not playing well he should be replaced. But Longstaff's not the answer either, we really should have a genuine midfielder of international quality playing first choice.

[Kid Icarus]

There's some extreme cherry picking going on here like. First, you don't use a data set of 7 matches. But if you do, you don't only look at passing 

 

Turns out that when you look at everything he's in the top centiles for things like xG, xA, shots, shot creation from dribbling, shot creation from defending, crosses, pressures, tackles, dribbles into the penalty area 

https://fbref.com/en/players/a3b03921/scout/11566/Joe-Willock-Scouting-Report

 

 

Or if you don't want to use data positively skewed by such a small data set, you can just look over the last year.

 

 

 

[Kid Icarus]

I've noticed that neither FBRefs or Transfermarkt recorded his cross to Bruno in the Leicester match as an assist either for some reason. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I’m not sure if those stats make him look better or worse. 

[TRon]

3 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I’m not sure if those stats make him look better or worse. 

 

The whole point of posting the cherry picked stats was to make him look worse so there's your answer.

[Kid Icarus]

Unless you're looking for a complete player, they tell you the profile of a player more than they necessarily tell you whether they're good or bad imo. 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[Kid Icarus]

You can basically infer that:

 

He's a dribbler not a passer

He's good at breaking up opposition play

He's very good at travelling with the ball, often into the penalty area

He often finds himself with the ball in the box

He's underperforming his xG which suggests he's getting in the right positions, if he can match his goals to his xG he can be a 1 in 5 midfielder based on his xG per 90.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[TRon]

3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

You can basically infer that:

 

He's a dribbler not a passer

He's good at breaking up opposition play

He's very good at travelling with the ball, often into the penalty area

He often finds himself with the ball in the box

He's underperforming his xG which suggests he's getting in the right positions, if he can match his goals to his xG he can be a 1 in 5 midfielder based on his xG per 90.

 

 

 

 

I mean that's what it looked like on Saturday, and most games this season. He's not finishing or creating enough at the end of the day, but just looks like a lack of confidence ultimately, so should probably be on the bench rather than starting every game. I still think he's doing some good stuff approach wise, just doesn't have the quality to finish. Neither does anyone else though at the moment.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think also the combination with Joelinton is particularly bad, because neither of them are good at passing the ball around with zip and attacking intent. 

[Smal]

6 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

There's some extreme cherry picking going on here like. First, you don't use a data set of 7 matches. But if you do, you don't only look at passing 

 

Turns out that when you look at everything he's in the top centiles for things like xG, xA, shots, shot creation from dribbling, shot creation from defending, crosses, pressures, tackles, dribbles into the penalty area 

https://fbref.com/en/players/a3b03921/scout/11566/Joe-Willock-Scouting-Report

 

 

Or if you don't want to use data positively skewed by such a small data set, you can just look over the last year.

 

 

 

I don’t think anything you’ve posted here is contrary to what I posted to be honest. He doesn’t get on the ball and in fact seems to actively avoid it given our decent possession numbers, and when he does eventually get the ball he does very little to progress play compared to our other players playing in the same system.

 

I used this season because it’s the most relevant to the current system and we’ve had a decent amount of possession.

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Smal

[Kid Icarus]