Eveready Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 (edited) I'm not well versed on FFP but surely this is a purely cash transaction which has no impact on FFP (unless the interest payments are included in the cost side of FFP). I don't understand how someone said above that shareholder's aren't allowed to put money into clubs any more because of FFP. I can't find anything about it and find it extremely odd, but happy to be proven wrong. A shareholder's loan would've surely been the most sensible option on paper as it would incur low interest and you would imagine that PIF has enough cash sitting around that it wouldn't be an issue. I'd imagine that the ownership structure could be an issue with PIF owning 80% maybe the other partner's didn't want to contribute and this could effect the equity split until the loan is repaid? If interest isn't included in FFP costs then I don't see any real downside with what they're doing with HSBC though. Either way for FFP in the long term - trying to get as much of the deal paid upfront as we can afford as will likely result in a lower overall fee and therefore FFP cost would probably be the best bet. I'm guessing this could be their thinking in trying to generate as much cash as possible now. Edit: grammar Edited July 27, 2022 by Eveready Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fantail Breeze Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Going to wait to hear what Grumpy thinks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UncleBingo Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 8 minutes ago, Fantail Breeze said: Going to wait to hear what Grumpy thinks. Major Major reckons we're going bust. One for the teenagers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 21 minutes ago, Eveready said: I'm not well versed on FFP but surely this is a purely cash transaction which has no impact on FFP (unless the interest payments are included in the cost side of FFP). I don't understand how someone said above that shareholder's aren't allowed to put money into clubs any more because of FFP. I can't find anything about it and find it extremely odd, but happy to be proven wrong. A shareholder's loan would've surely been the most sensible option on paper as it would incur low interest and you would imagine that PIF has enough cash sitting around that it wouldn't be an issue. I'd imagine that the ownership structure could be an issue with PIF owning 80% maybe the other partner's didn't want to contribute and this could effect the equity split until the loan is repaid? If interest isn't included in FFP costs then I don't see any real downside with what they're doing with HSBC though. Either way for FFP in the long term - trying to get as much of the deal paid upfront as we can afford as will likely result in a lower overall fee and therefore FFP cost would probably be the best bet. I'm guessing this could be their thinking in trying to generate as much cash as possible now. Edit: grammar Wasn't the "pay it all up front as it gets a cheaper deal" plan Ashley's plan ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bompeter Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 50 minutes ago, 54 said: Man City did it last season: Here (If i'm reading the statement correctly) Can’t get the link to work but is it CFG’s massive Barclays deal? That was for infrastructure spending across their City Football Group and wasn’t secured against the TV revenue. It’s also a decade in to the Abu Dhabi project when they have extremely mature revenue streams. Very different deal commercially to our short-term debt financing secured against TV revenue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eveready Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Just now, madras said: Wasn't the "pay it all up front as it gets a cheaper deal" plan Ashley's plan ? It was definitely an excuse he used but if we use the Pope deal as an example we paid £10m with payments spread. Burnley then went and got early financing for the future payments, which let's say cost them £500k. We could likely have struck a deal for £9.75m with the full amount paid upfront. We save £250k on FFP, Burnley get £250k additional cash. I don't think they care about FFP but if the cash is available then it's a win-win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Pretty obvious this is to bankroll an expensive August. Next year, new sponsorships will bankroll us. Up the Premier league we go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Has anyone mentioned how much this loan/bringing forward is actually worth ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 (edited) Is Bompeter making any particularly outrageous observations here? Reads a little like people are just trying to shout down a dissenting voice from an established narrative that we’re loaded now. Must fully admit to knowing nothing about accounting or money in general but it does seem like Bompeter has made some points here that are worthy of open minded discussion. ah wel…..npw…. Edited July 27, 2022 by Lotus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoot Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 2 hours ago, Bompeter said: This suggests we really aren’t being bankrolled by the Saudis in any way. Pretty disappointing. I’d love to know what exactly the funding agreement is between PIF and the minority owners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 I don't think it reads anything like that. There are people disagreeing with each other on what this means based on what they either understand or think they understand, but for the most part I think most of us don't know what any of this really means either way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 We bring in proper people at boardroom level then act shocked when they use every trick in the book to maximise our potential. No stone unturned and no avenue cut off for exploiting our situation. You'd think people had their head in the sand and missed the legal battle and what levels we went to there to gain any advantage. Numpties. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 20 minutes ago, Scoot said: Pretty obvious this is to bankroll an expensive August. Next year, new sponsorships will bankroll us. Up the Premier league we go. We need more posts like this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingcrofty Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Just now, Dokko said: We bring in proper people at boardroom level then act shocked when they use every trick in the book to maximise our potential. No stone unturned and no avenue cut off for exploiting our situation. You'd think people had their head in the sand and missed the legal battle and what levels we went to there to gain any advantage. Numpties. Exactly. These owners aren’t chancers, they’re some of the most successful people around. They know how to run a business to maximise its potential, and the bit they don’t know how to run (football) they’ve brought in some of the best in the field to do it for them. We’re in safe hands. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 (edited) It’s normal business practice whether you’re PIF or some local corner shop. Everyone uses a credit facility and banks like those that can guarantee their capital back, with interest. Also, again, people need to accept and realise that just because we are 80% owned by PIF, despite all their wealth, it’s not ours only and it’s not as simple as just plowimg money into things in cold hard cash. Everything has to be accountable for and all that money anyway, is mostly paper money. As is what we generate, operate and function at as a business. Edited July 27, 2022 by HTT II Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Anyone worried that this signifies the owners aren't serious or that they don't have the money or are unwilling to invest money only need to look at what they've done since they've been here Their actions from replacing the manager, getting in numerous coaching staff, getting in a well respected sporting director, a CEO with a solid record, spending money on the stadium, improvements to the training ground and the most important of them all, £150m on improving the squad tells you about their intent So people need to calm down, what this loan means I'm not sure but I'll trust it's for the benefit of the club/squad No doubt grumpy will be telling us that we are bring liquidated the doylem that he is Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 I would think it’s perfectly legitimate to at least ask why, if we’re owned (in the majority) and one would think financed by PIF why we would be taking a bank loan for cash flow. I’m not saying it’s necessarily indicative of anything any of us propose but is at least worthy of discussion, is it not? And, just because our new owners have definitely talk the talk so far, let’s have our eyes open. I read lots and lots of posts saying the Saudis won’t settle for 2nd best, etc. That may be so but, let’s just temper our excitement with the actual evidence of what they do rather than our dreams of what they might do. From my own POV football has been horribly f**ked by sugar daddies but given that it is so, I hope we go mad with it. I really do. The game in total has been ruined anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 It’s absolutely no big deal. As for owners piling in equity, that would have to be done in line with the shareholding, PIF’s pockets are bottomless but the others aren’t. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 1 minute ago, Geordie Ahmed said: Anyone worried that this signifies the owners aren't serious or that they don't have the money or are unwilling to invest money only need to look at what they've done since they've been here Their actions from replacing the manager, getting in numerous coaching staff, getting in a well respected sporting director, a CEO with a solid record, spending money on the stadium, improvements to the training ground and the most important of them all, £150m on improving the squad tells you about their intent So people need to calm down, what this loan means I'm not sure but I'll trust it's for the benefit of the club/squad No doubt grumpy will be telling us that we are bring liquidated the doylem that he is Bang on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, HTT II said: It’s normal business practice whether you’re PIF or some local corner shop. Everyone uses a credit facility and banks like those that can guarantee their capital back, with interest. Also, again, people need to accept and realise that just because we are 80% owned by PIF, despite all their wealth, it’s not ours only and it’s not as simple as just plowimg money into things in cold hard cash. Everything has to be accountable for and all that money anyway, is mostly paper money. As is what we generate, operate and function at as a business. Yes, and the really cool thing is, anyone can run a business Mike Ashley-style and just look to turn a profit, but from what we've seen of the new owners, not only do they want a successful business, they also want a successful club. That's the big differentiator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 3 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said: getting in a well respected sporting director, a CEO with a solid record, especially this bit. i don't imagine these guys are on zero hour minimum wage contracts. They haven't hired them to fool the fans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Maybe PIF have refused investment after reading on here what a waste of money Chris Wood was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 5 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said: Anyone worried that this signifies the owners aren't serious or that they don't have the money or are unwilling to invest money only need to look at what they've done since they've been here Their actions from replacing the manager, getting in numerous coaching staff, getting in a well respected sporting director, a CEO with a solid record, spending money on the stadium, improvements to the training ground and the most important of them all, £150m on improving the squad tells you about their intent So people need to calm down, what this loan means I'm not sure but I'll trust it's for the benefit of the club/squad No doubt grumpy will be telling us that we are bring liquidated the doylem that he is Good post and I agree. Its fair for us to wonder, in case any of us can shed some light on it, why we pulled the money this way instead of that. So far though, none of us seems quite sure but at least some different ideas are being thrown about which is healthy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 (edited) I'll ask again because it was on the bottom of a page when I last asked but has anyone mentioned how much this loan/bringing forward is worth ? Edited July 27, 2022 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 Just now, madras said: I'll ask again because it was on the bottom of a page when I last asked but has anyone mentioned hiw much this loan/bringing forward is worth ? Somebody said something [not Ando] that suggested it was the full value of our expected TV money. We could both be mistaken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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