The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[gjohnson]

1 minute ago, Joey Linton said:

Not comfortable with the back story like a lot of others, but let's not pretend if say the Glazers had the chance to sell Man United to the PIF their fans wouldn't have snapped your hand off (pun intended). 

They absolutely would have. There would have been a few puff pieces about how terrible PIF and KSA, but nothing like this leftie hysteria going on at the minute.

 

Long and the short is that this has upset the 'rich 6', they don't like it, and most of the media is completely beholden to them

[B-more Mag]

I'm very uncomfortable with many of the things my own home country does. It's the only place I've lived and the only place I've ever known. It's my home and I love it. The world-- and life itself--are complex and nuanced. Yet we navigate through it every day and survive it as best we can; finding moments of joy and peace and contentment as and where we can; balancing risks and rewards as best we can; trying to do good when we can and avoid doing harm, all while keeping in mind there are no absolutes and everything has issues of magnitude and proximity. This is no different.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by B-more Mag

[Deuce]

3 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I really don’t agree at all that you can make the “we are all bad!” Argument and call it western exceptionalism. We simply don’t flog or kill people for their sexuality. There are levels. Yes America bad! Etc but they are not even operating on the same level as the KSA 

I don’t think supporting this club makes anyone an apologist for the Saudi regime, and I don’t think any of our supporters should be held responsible for something they do not have any control over. But the equivocating is intellectually lazy. And the outright pro-Saudi garbage that we’ve started to see and will continue to see is absolutely pathetic. 

[Kid Icarus]

I'd say B-More is absolutely right there. The U.S (and Israel) are just as bad, if not worse, and comfortably so. Obviously not an excuse, there'd be an outcry if those states owned clubs and rightly so. This is exactly how sports washing works though, they're not daft and know fine well the emotional ties that people have to their football clubs and that even those who are well aware what the likes of MBS have done and feel guilt will try to justify it to themselves or feel conflicted, and that those who don't feel guilty at all will openly defend them.

 

There's a bit in Manufacturing Consent that talks about how team sports train people to have irrational attitudes of submission to authority. I'm not saying that has been the explicit intention here, but I do think there's a lot to be said for that idea and that it's the basis for sports washing's success.

[TRon]

26 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I really don’t agree at all that you can make the “we are all bad!” Argument and call it western exceptionalism. We simply don’t flog or kill people for their sexuality. There are levels. Yes America bad! Etc but they are not even operating on the same level as the KSA 

 

Does that mean Ashley was a better owner in your world then?

 

 

[Guest HTT II]

The UK and US get away with so much shit because it’s under the umbrella of all kinds of things we as nations are actually and should be proud of what we’ve achieved, stand for, stand up for and do and do not allow as acceptable or not as citizens basically.

 

But to say SA is worse than say England in terms of human rights atrocities and other shit grossly misjudges the whole debate around where we ourselves stand or don’t in that regard because we and the US in particular are as bad as any regimes when it comes to human atrocities and don’t let a gay couple being able and free to hold hands and kiss down Oxford street detract from that.
 

In reality the whole world is fucked up and ran by despots and the average Joe can only really stand up for his/her/their own moral rights and that of others as individuals or in groups which has led the way to a better way of life for many.
 

It wasn’t JFK that transformed the rights/lives of black Americans it was themselves for example. 
 

A few years later Vietnam… 

 

9/11 was obviously awful, but the US and the West’s reaction to that destroyed more than just some tall buildings…

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by HTT II

[Hhtoon]

12 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Come on man. How is the US just as bad?  Name one state in the US that lawfully does this:

 

”Saudi Arabia has no criminal code and the primary source of law in the country the Islamic Sharia, derived from the Qur'an and the traditions of Muhammadcontained in the Sunnah. Homosexuality and being transgender are widely seen as immoral and indecent activities, and the law punishes acts of homosexuality or cross-dressing with fines, public whipping, beatings, chemical castrations,[1] imprisonment up to life, the death penalty(though it has not been applied for homosexuality alone)[5] and torture.[6]”

 

 

Supports Israel in its actions against Gaza

The Iraqi war (let's not forget UK involvement)

The absolute clusterfuck that is Afghanistan. 

 

All of which probably result in far more deaths and poverty etc than SA are involved in.

 

Is what some people would say. Not me though, I don't see the point in any of these arguments to be honest. Shit everywhere frankly and most definitely in KSA.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Hhtoon

[KaKa]

24 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I really don’t agree at all that you can make the “we are all bad!” Argument and call it western exceptionalism. We simply don’t flog or kill people for their sexuality. There are levels. Yes America bad! Etc but they are not even operating on the same level as the KSA 

 

That's from your point of view though that's the thing. In your world abortion is perfectly normal, in others that is paramount to killing babies, and what could be worse than that when viewed from that lens?

 

Maybe we'll eventually come to a time when these nations won't deal with each other on any level due to these differences, but I can't really see it happening to be honest.

 

 

[Kid Icarus]

9 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Come on man. How is the US just as bad?  Name one state in the US that lawfully does this:

 

”Saudi Arabia has no criminal code and the primary source of law in the country the Islamic Sharia, derived from the Qur'an and the traditions of Muhammadcontained in the Sunnah. Homosexuality and being transgender are widely seen as immoral and indecent activities, and the law punishes acts of homosexuality or cross-dressing with fines, public whipping, beatings, chemical castrations,[1] imprisonment up to life, the death penalty(though it has not been applied for homosexuality alone)[5] and torture.[6]”

 

Purely on foreign intervention alone. The U.S has far more domestic freedom.

[Tiresias]

This ranking countries against each other is nonsense all countries have acted reprehensibly, what we are concerned about actions right now of treating gay people, women, activists etc etc like shit, values completely at odds with the broad strokes inclusiveness the premier league pretends to promote and totally unacceptable in the UK where Newcastle exists. 

 

ManDoon is just saying we don't need to act as their PR, and he's right, no different than under ashley we didn't need to all be banging on about how he was a wonderful businessman

[Billy Pilgrim]

It’s an unwinnable argument as well, because the fact is they are the worst of the worst. It is impossible to actually convince someone with words on the internet that they are not horrible in the worst way possible. But that doesn’t mean you have to performatively self flagellate for bitter plastics on Reddit either. Step 1, don’t get sucked into parading about as Saudi super fans. Step 2, win everything and sign everyone and enjoy it. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Billy Pilgrim

[thomas]

i said in the last morality thread that I felt a kind of optimistic nihilism about it. There's precious little I could do to stop it in the first place and i'd like to enjoy being able to be happy when we win again.

 

The movement it would take to make a difference now is one that would be mindbogglingly huge. And hilarious to the point of ludicrousness that it wouldn't have happened earlier for a billion better causes.  

[TRon]

5 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

In football terms, no way. In human being terms, compared to the Prince ? 100 percent yes. I don’t know what you mean though I was making the point that we don’t need to suddenly be like “well the US is also bad/we live in a society”.
 

We can acknowledge the cuntishness of the KSA and still separate it and enjoy the football. I don’t think we should be doing PR for them. No way 

 

Yeah i agree, and this is what I have done for my part. I am not interested in doing any PR for SA, and I see their investment from the football angle for the most part, although I will certainly appreciate any investment in the city itself as well. Ashley brought nothing but misery as far as I'm concerned so I am 100% behind the Saudi takeover. 

[thomas]

Legit question for people better versed in football ownership lore than I - is Berlusconi being AC Milan owner while also Italy Prime Minister about the closest we've come to this before? I mean [puts joking hat on] it's Italy and i'm sure some corruption occurred etc, but there was never direct government ownership. Was it more or less overlooked because the worst of his transgressions were bunga bunga parties on the yacht?

[KaKa]

Just now, ManDoon said:

Good take. I just wish Newcastle didn’t have to be so fucking complicated. Like couldn’t we have got someone like the Leicester guy. It’s a curse 

 

I'm certain we had numerous offers from people similar to the Leicester owners, but just like the UK government, Mike Ashley was only ever looking out for his best interests and that was getting the most money he could.

[B-more Mag]

I wasn't doing any particular ranking or comparisons of wrongs in my post--simply pointing out that it's completely normal and rational for me to be able to love my home country while still being horrified by things my country does. In the same way, it's perfectly normal and rational for us to be able to continue to love and support the club while also being horrified by things the KSA does. It's part of the calculus of every day life.

[TRon]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

I'm certain we had numerous offers from people similar to the Leicester owners, but just like the UK government, Mike Ashley was only ever looking out for his best interests and that was getting the most money he could.

 

Not sure we did like, most of the offers we had prior to PIF seemed to be time wasters or the types who were looking to load us with debt so they could cash in further down the line. Leicester type owners are the exception rather than the rule. 

[KaKa]

Just now, TRon said:

 

Not sure we did like, most of the offers we had prior to PIF seemed to be time wasters or the types who were looking to load us with debt so they could cash in further down the line. Leicester type owners are the exception rather than the rule. 

 

Well that's certainly the way it was always spun to us that's for sure, but that was always Ashley's narrative I imagine.

[David Edgar]

I really don't think Newcastle fans should praise/support/defend anything related to Saudi Arabia.

 

In fact, it should absolutely be the opposite.

 

I'm gonna be strongly against all uses of the club to sportswash the crimes of the Saudi Arabia leadership.  And I hope others will be too.

 

If that results in these owners pulling back on their plans or pulling out entirely...  I wouldn't care less.

 

That's as far as my mind has got on this.  Will think a little more and maybe post a little update on where I land on this issue another time.

[KaKa]

Just now, ManDoon said:

I reckon we prob had other interested parties, it’s still a really good purchase for someone, despite Ashley’s running of it 

 

Oh absolutely, and to be fair to the tit, having the club in profit and with no debt on it has now left us in a ridiculously strong place from a financial fair play viewpoint.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, David Edgar said:

I really don't think Newcastle fans should praise/support/defend anything related to Saudi Arabia.

 

In fact, it should absolutely be the opposite.

 

I'm gonna be strongly against all uses of the club to sportswash the crimes of the Saudi Arabia leadership.  And I hope others will be too.

 

If that results in these owners pulling back on their plans or pulling out entirely...  I wouldn't care less.

 

That's as far as my mind has got on this.  Will think a little more and maybe post a little update on where I land on this issue another time.

 

The thing is, once these lot buy these clubs they typically disappear into the background. Occasionally showing up for big games or when the club wins something. They don't really parade themselves about or tend to make a big song and dance about their involvement typically.

[KaKa]

2 minutes ago, POOT 2.0 said:

Respect to ManDoon for carrying this. 

 

I agree with pretty much all of your feelings on it. But I disagree that this isn't aligned with the other investments in the other companies. Whatever the company is...the Saudi state is still abhorrent. Surely the point is not the type of companies they invest in, but the type of repulsive state they are. So I think it's valid for those to point out the hypocrisy of someone riding in an *Uber whilst using *Twitter to accuse NUFC fans for having blood on their hands. Those dismissing those investments as not being the same cause for concern, are surely making the same forgiving concessions we're accused of? 

 

As far as we're concerned: I think the conversation will mature over time. And we'll be able to discuss the awful Saudi laws without all feeling personally attacked  

 

*not sure they still have stakes in these companies. But my point is there.

 

Yeah, I don't really understand myself how you can separate their club ownerships from everything else. If other countries really cared about their practices they would be barred from trading anything at all with any of them. The whole thing is just so stupid. Either cut them off completely or just stop with the foolishness.

[TRon]

11 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Well that's certainly the way it was always spun to us that's for sure, but that was always Ashley's narrative I imagine.

 

I'm pretty sure we heard about all the genuinely interested parties, you can't keep a lid on all of them, not with the media interest. 

[Smal]

14 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

 man. 

Yuck!  
 

But sportswashing doesn’t exist! 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Smal

[David Edgar]

2 minutes ago, POOT 2.0 said:

And I'm sure it's just me, but...I feel very cynical towards a large proportion of these journalists writing human rights pieces when they never have before. It feels like they're riding a current trending topic in order to get their clicks and advertising quotas. In fact, it's exactly what a lot are doing. 

 

These situations in SA have been going on for decades. But many of them haven't made a single peep from their lofty soapboxes. 

 

Caveat: That's not to dismiss the journalists who have spent most of their careers covering it. Or even written articles over the years. Full respect to them.

 

 

I don't think we should be criticising journalists for putting out human rights pieces, even if they never have before.  The Saudi state deserve it.  And criticising the news output feels very close to fulfilling the sportswashing desires of our new owners.