Eddie Howe - Granted Freedom of Newcastle

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Let’s be honest, we haven’t a clue what most managers are even trying tactically. 
 

Was Wenger not good tactically? 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2024 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Froggy]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Motivation is pointless without tactics though.

 

[Abacus]

1 minute ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Let’s be honest, we haven’t a clue what most managers are even trying tactically. 

 

 

Agreed.

 

It still makes me laugh that Bruce was thought of as hard to play against tactically because even he didn't know what he was up to.

[Dr Jinx]

4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Ding. Ding.

 

I've long held this view. It's not his primary strength. Same goes for SBR, Keegan, Ferguson, Wenger, Ancelotti, Mourinho - the list goes on. Doesn't mean he's not capable tactically but that's not his USP.

 

Rafa's better than Carlo tactically. Ancelotti is a significantly better manager.  Rafa's ability to coach/drill a compact shape and install game plans for a one-off game is among the best ever. Being so particular in coaching and not a great communicator/motivator is his primary weakness. That turns top players off who need more expression and egos massaged.

 

As fans, we think Managers need to be smart. Many fans think the smartest thing you can be is smart tactically.

 

 

 

 

That's a very good point, generally footballers for the most part are not the sharpest people, a lack of education and being surrounded by people with a lack of education creates a bubble where they can function perfectly well in life not knowing the things they don't know.

 

A manager needs to aspire to be a bit more than that. But they cannot lose the aspects of their personality that make it easy for them to relate to their players.

 

That's why for the most part, current managers are past players. You don't get many outsiders who go straight to coaching.

 

Rafa Benitez was done as a player by his mid 20's and made the jump to coaching/management straight away. Similar with Eddie, his playing career finished relatively early at 30, so he had that time to soak in a bit more.

 

 

[Holmesy]

3 hours ago, Bunk Moreland said:

 

I am starting to think that, although I don't think he's completely devoid of tactical nous or input as others seem to think. Just not sure it's his primary strengeth. Interesting contrast with someone like Iraola - remember listening to an interview with him where he said he doesn't like motivation much and is focused completely on tactics.

I mentioned Iraola on here as a possible replacement for EH IF he was to go, and I got pelters for it. For me, he fits the bill - a young, progressive, tactically astute manager who has proven he can make a team better than the sum of their parts. And that latter part is the biggest telltale sign of a good manager for me. Rafa is a perfect example

[andycap]

In his presser today he seemed a bit uncomfortable when he was asked about Kelly and tonali playing centrally. Must mean burn and bruno come back into the team in them positions. 😂 

Just my opinion mind. 

[SUPERTOON]

It would make sense for Bruno to play centrally against Arsenal tomorrow mind.

[Myleftboot]

Unchanged from Chelsea last week apart from Gordon in.

[madras]

10 minutes ago, Myleftboot said:

Unchanged from Chelsea last week apart from Gordon in.

So changed then?

[Myleftboot]

7 minutes ago, madras said:

So changed then?

How would I word it though?

[Myleftboot]

Gordon in but unchanged.

[TheBrownBottle]

11 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Ding. Ding.

 

I've long held this view. It's not his primary strength. Same goes for SBR, Keegan, Ferguson, Wenger, Ancelotti, Mourinho - the list goes on. Doesn't mean he's not capable tactically but that's not his USP.

 

Rafa's better than Carlo tactically. Ancelotti is a significantly better manager.  Rafa's ability to coach/drill a compact shape and install game plans for a one-off game is among the best ever. Being so particular in coaching and not a great communicator/motivator is his primary weakness. That turns top players off who need more expression and egos massaged.

 

As fans, we think Managers need to be smart. Many fans think the smartest thing you can be is smart tactically.

 

 

 

Wenger and Mourinho weren’t tactical managers?  Ancelotti isn’t as sharp tactically as Benitez?

 

Wenger was absolutely a tactical manager - as well as an outstanding coach.  Mourinho’s style could be hard on the eyes, but I’m flummoxed at the idea that he wasn’t tactically first-rate.  

 

The Ancelotti / Benitez one is the one I disagree with most.  Ancelotti learned under Capello, Saachi, Liedholm and Eriksson.  You can see their influences in his teams over the years - Liedholm’s zonal marking, Saachi’s creation of a high pressing system and high defensive line which built on Liedholm’s style as well as total football, Capello’s conversion of this into a more attacking style particularly from midfield - all of that you could see in Ancelotti’s teams over the years.  He’s learned at the feet of tactical masters and applied the lessons himself - along with his own style.  Organisation isn’t what tactics is all about.  Benitez isn’t at Ancelotti’s level on that front.

[RS]

He’s alright. 

[The College Dropout]

24 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Wenger and Mourinho weren’t tactical managers?  Ancelotti isn’t as sharp tactically as Benitez?

 

Wenger was absolutely a tactical manager - as well as an outstanding coach.  Mourinho’s style could be hard on the eyes, but I’m flummoxed at the idea that he wasn’t tactically first-rate.  

 

The Ancelotti / Benitez one is the one I disagree with most.  Ancelotti learned under Capello, Saachi, Liedholm and Eriksson.  You can see their influences in his teams over the years - Liedholm’s zonal marking, Saachi’s creation of a high pressing system and high defensive line which built on Liedholm’s style as well as total football, Capello’s conversion of this into a more attacking style particularly from midfield - all of that you could see in Ancelotti’s teams over the years.  He’s learned at the feet of tactical masters and applied the lessons himself - along with his own style.  Organisation isn’t what tactics is all about.  Benitez isn’t at Ancelotti’s level on that front.

I’m saying ‘tactics’ aren’t their strongest point. 
 

Ancelotti doesn’t coach specific routes of attack. He has certain ideas and wants players in certain areas they can do damage. But it’s not a highly tactical and coached setup like Guardiola or a lot of modern German managers. He puts the most talented players in positions to succeed and lets them get on with it with a bit of direction.  Listen to ex-Chelsea players or even Jude re: Carlo. They all love him. But he doesn’t provide detailed tactical direction compared to a Guardiola. Incidentally- Carlo was less popular at Bayern whose players preferred a more detailed tactical plan and intense coaching.  
 

Benitez is specific. He wants attackers to make certain runs again and again. Certain moves.  And has deep analysis of the opposition and how to stop them. 
 

Benitez took over from Carlo at Madrid. It was reported that The players hated the meticulous training sessions  

and felt overloaded by tactical instruction.  And Rafa is notorious for being a poor communicator and man manager. He succeeded through coaching and tactical edges.  Listen to any Liverpool player they all say Rafa was hard to get along with. But he was so detailed as a coach and knew how to setup the side to succeed in a one-off game. 
 

i don’t know how you lot can watch a sport for 30+ years and not back yourself to understand more than 50% of what a coach is trying to do tactically. 

[TheBrownBottle]

22 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

I’m saying ‘tactics’ aren’t their strongest point. 
 

Ancelotti doesn’t coach specific routes of attack. He has certain ideas and wants players in certain areas they can do damage. But it’s not a highly tactical and coached setup like Guardiola or a lot of modern German managers. He puts the most talented players in positions to succeed and lets them get on with it with a bit of direction.  Listen to ex-Chelsea players or even Jude re: Carlo. They all love him. But he doesn’t provide detailed tactical direction compared to a Guardiola. Incidentally- Carlo was less popular at Bayern whose players preferred a more detailed tactical plan and intense coaching.  
 

Benitez is specific. He wants attackers to make certain runs again and again. Certain moves.  And has deep analysis of the opposition and how to stop them. 
 

Benitez took over from Carlo at Madrid. It was reported that The players hated the meticulous training sessions  

and felt overloaded by tactical instruction.  And Rafa is notorious for being a poor communicator and man manager. He succeeded through coaching and tactical edges.  Listen to any Liverpool player they all say Rafa was hard to get along with. But he was so detailed as a coach and knew how to setup the side to succeed in a one-off game. 
 

i don’t know how you lot can watch a sport for 30+ years and not back yourself to understand more than 50% of what a coach is trying to do tactically. 

 

Benitez rubbing the players up the wrong way isn’t proof that they didn’t understand his tactical genius.  You’re talking about some of the best players in the world in the Real Madrid side - do you honestly think all they’d had was some pep talks prior to Benitez rocking up?  This isn’t to say that Benitez wasn’t a top manager in his prime.  But Ancelotti, Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho aren’t tactical managers - it was all just pep talks and a bit of coaching?  Haddaway man.

 

And you can knock the insults on the head.  

[Geogaddi]

Mourinho is definitely a tactical manager mind , in fact he's basically just a much better version of Benitez .

[CPL]

6 minutes ago, Geogaddi said:

Mourinho is definitely a tactical manager mind , in fact he's basically just a much better version of Benitez .

Still can't believe Spurs sacked him before a final. 

[Paully]

2 minutes ago, CPL said:

Still can't believe Spurs sacked him before a final. 

Absolutely insane that was!

[Heron]

Eddie is our king 🤴 

[Likelylad]

1 hour ago, Paully said:

Absolutely insane that was!

I always thought that showed what an egotistical bell Levy truly is. 

[Holmesy]

Daniel Levy doesn't want to win things, it ramps up expectation and puts him under pressure to spend more.

He's like a more cunning, savvy version of Mike Ashley.

[The College Dropout]

9 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

 

Benitez rubbing the players up the wrong way isn’t proof that they didn’t understand his tactical genius.  You’re talking about some of the best players in the world in the Real Madrid side - do you honestly think all they’d had was some pep talks prior to Benitez rocking up?  This isn’t to say that Benitez wasn’t a top manager in his prime.  But Ancelotti, Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho aren’t tactical managers - it was all just pep talks and a bit of coaching?  Haddaway man.

 

And you can knock the insults on the head.  

You’re missing the fundamental point. I’m not claiming these managers have no tactics, are tactically incompetent etc. That’s impossible given their success.  I’m saying that wasn’t what made them the best, not their USP.  

 

You’re doing the thing I’m rallying against. ‘Tactics’ isn’t the holy grail of football management. You’re reducing the rest of football management to ‘pep talks’ and it’s not that simple.  The game is about getting the best out of 11 talented young men. Telling them in great detail what to do, isn’t always the best way to succeed. ‘Tactics’ aren’t the best and end all of football management is my core point - the best managers don’t have to be the best tacticians. Like the best player in the world doesn’t have to be the best athlete.  The best player in the world can’t be a bad athlete, he has to be god enough but his relative strengths can lay elsewhere (substitute athleticism for technical ability or whatever else).  
 

—-

Carlo’s ability to get the best out of elite players is his USP. He saw something in Jude no other manager saw and supported it tactically with the false 9.  Or moving Pirlo to 6 from 10 then flanking him with runners. Thats how he finds his margins - creating platforms for the best players to express themselves. That can be more important than managers who focus more on tactical setups and coaching. That’s Howe moving Joelinton to midfield (although that was serendipitous).  
 

Like I said - listen to players talk about managers. Every player talks about how specific Rafa is tactically. Most of the more talented players don’t talk positively of it - it’s stifling. Henry complained about Pep telling him where to stand, where to run until he saw that it worked. 

[TheBrownBottle]

15 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

You’re missing the fundamental point. I’m not claiming these managers have no tactics, are tactically incompetent etc. That’s impossible given their success.  I’m saying that wasn’t what made them the best, not their USP.  

 

You’re doing the thing I’m rallying against. ‘Tactics’ isn’t the holy grail of football management. You’re reducing the rest of football management to ‘pep talks’ and it’s not that simple.  The game is about getting the best out of 11 talented young men. Telling them in great detail what to do, isn’t always the best way to succeed. ‘Tactics’ aren’t the best and end all of football management is my core point - the best managers don’t have to be the best tacticians. Like the best player in the world doesn’t have to be the best athlete.  The best player in the world can’t be a bad athlete, he has to be god enough but his relative strengths can lay elsewhere (substitute athleticism for technical ability or whatever else).  
 

—-

Carlo’s ability to get the best out of elite players is his USP. He saw something in Jude no other manager saw and supported it tactically with the false 9.  Or moving Pirlo to 6 from 10 then flanking him with runners. Thats how he finds his margins - creating platforms for the best players to express themselves. That can be more important than managers who focus more on tactical setups and coaching. That’s Howe moving Joelinton to midfield (although that was serendipitous).  
 

Like I said - listen to players talk about managers. Every player talks about how specific Rafa is tactically. Most of the more talented players don’t talk positively of it - it’s stifling. Henry complained about Pep telling him where to stand, where to run until he saw that it worked. 

I’ve always respected your POV, TCD.  I know you genuinely think about this - but I just can’t agree with the fundamentals of your original point.  I don’t think that managers at elite level are categorisable - I think the differences are slight.

 

I write this with all the due respect possible - I just don’t think that managers at that level slot into easy boxes. 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2024 by TheBrownBottle

[The College Dropout]

3 hours ago, Geogaddi said:

Mourinho is definitely a tactical manager mind , in fact he's basically just a much better version of Benitez .

Don’t agree. At his pomp Mourinho was tactically great but he was never a manager to have a strong offensive tactical approach game to game. He let his offensive players  express themselves. 
 

But he was a brilliant man manager at his pomp. The players believed in him and would run through brick walls for him. Which was needed because his management approach focussed on working extremely hard and putting bodies on the line.  And he would bring fanbases with him. And that would always be his undoing - his abrasive motivation style stops working and it implodes.  
 

In 2024 tactically he’s not kept up with the elite - same as Rafa and to a lesser extent Carlo (who was always less tactically focussed anyway).  But the bigger issue is he’s not able to bring players/fans under his spell anymore.  Or for long enough.  A lot of that is personality. The broadly defensive tactics doesn’t help with buy-in either.  That buy-in is everything in football.  A team that buys into the manager is a good team.  Fast to the ball, sharp mentally etc. Similarly losing the dressing room is everything too. 

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Don’t agree. At his pomp Mourinho was tactically great but he was never a manager to have a strong offensive tactical approach game to game. He let his offensive players  express themselves. 
 

But he was a brilliant man manager at his pomp. The players believed in him and would run through brick walls for him. Which was needed because his management approach focussed on working extremely hard and putting bodies on the line.  And he would bring fanbases with him. And that would always be his undoing - his abrasive motivation style stops working and it implodes.  
 

In 2024 tactically he’s not kept up with the elite - same as Rafa and to a lesser extent Carlo (who was always less tactically focussed anyway).  But the bigger issue is he’s not able to bring players/fans under his spell anymore.  Or for long enough.  A lot of that is personality. The broadly defensive tactics doesn’t help with buy-in either.  That buy-in is everything in football.  A team that buys into the manager is a good team.  Fast to the ball, sharp mentally etc. Similarly losing the dressing room is everything too. 

Can’t agree with this TCG.  Mourinho’s tactics were boiled down to ‘Parking the bus’.   But this was bollocks.  You don’t win the European Cup with Porto and Inter based on half-baked tactics