Eddie Howe

[Alberto2005]

We lost to Wolves.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Villa have lost more matches than us. They were very beatable under Smith.

[Jackie Broon]

17 minutes ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

That's all a bit basic, isn't it?  Using hindsight to look back at the earlier games, where teams are now and not based on how those games were at the time, the positions of the opponents, their form and ability at the time, different managers etc.  

 

Spurs were shite under Nuno.  Watford were just as bad and in shite form under Munoz too, if memory serves?  Leeds and Southampton at home not seen as easy/winnable games at the time?  Villa?  Were they really any good back then?  They've had an upturn in form and good results and performances since Gerrard came in.  They're still only 13th after all that, mind?

 

Plus the difference in the games listed and then playing teams who are light years ahead and basically always beat us in Liverpool, City and Arsenal.  Man U and all.  Although we did catch them at a good time, I suppose.  They look average now. 

 

I was simply responding to the statement that "the start of this season that apart from 1 or 2 were the easiest fixtures we could have hoped for", which just doesn't line up with reality. In reality all of the "easiest fixtures", all of our matches at home against the current bottom 4 other teams this season, have been under Howe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Jackie Broon

[TRon]

1 minute ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

I was simply responding to the statement that "the start of this season that apart from 1 or 2 were the easiest fixtures we could have hoped for". Which just doesn't line up with reality. In reality all of the "easiest fixtures", all of our matches at home against the current bottom 4 other teams this season, have been under Howe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We were under less pressure at the start of the season though, far harder once we are already fighting relegation. The mood and momentum was set by Bruce in those early fixtures. 

[Jackie Broon]

Just now, TRon said:

 

 

We were under less pressure at the start of the season though, far harder once we are already fighting relegation. The mood and momentum was set by Bruce in those early fixtures. 

 

True, but that doesn't make the original statement I responded to any more true.

[jonny1403]

52 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

I'm not sure about that, in hindsight we had a tough start.

 

West Ham H 2-4, have turned out to be top 4 contenders, not an easy fixture.

Aston Villa A 0-2, an away match against a better side than us, not an easy fixture.

Southampton H 2-2, expected to be relegation fodder but are a solid mid-table team, not as easy a fixture as it seemed.

Man U A 1-4, not an easy fixture.

Leeds H 1-1, one we'd probably expect to win, maybe could be described as an easy fixture.

Watford A 1-1, maybe could be described as an easy fixture, but it is away.

Wolves A 1-2, a top half team away, not an easy fixture.

Tottenham H 2-3, not an easy fixture.

 

5 definitely not easy fixtures and 3 debatables.

 

Brentford H 3-3, playing a team at home that had just lost to Norwich and Burnley, easy fixture.

Arsenal A 0-2, not an easy fixture.

Norwich H 1-1, easy fixture.

Burnley H 1-0, easy fixture.

Leicester A 0-4, not an easy fixture, but probably easiest we're going to get away against a top half team.

Liverpool A 1-3, not an easy fixture

Man City H 0-4, not an easy fixture

Man U H 1-1, not an easy fixture

Watford H 1-1, easy fixture

 

5 definitely not easy fixtures and 4 definitely easy fixtures. 

 

 

 

 

 

That's a weird way of categorising it given that you've equated matches against West Ham and Villa as the same difficulty as Liverpool and City . You also for some reason think Watford away, a pretty awful team, is debatable but Brentford, a far better team at home is definitely an easy game?

 

A much simpler analysis would be to flag that we had two top 6 teams in the first run and four plus Leicester in the second run.

[Consortium of one]

I think the stars were never aligned for Rafa to return.  He would have been the guy because he would have sorted the defense first and guaranteed our survival.  Eddie was not my first choice but I'm still behind him.  Also think we will stay up irregardless of transfer business.  We just need a spark and a bit of belief.

[The Prophet]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

 

We might as well just not discuss anything then.

 

I said "he'll have had" not "he's had".

 

He's already been given £25M to spend on Chris Wood, we've brought in Trippier, and there will undoubtedly be more significant deals to be done in the next week and a half. If we don't make any more signings at all, then he clearly won't have had "enough backing".

 

However, if we spend £100M+ and still go down after 27 games of him as manager, I don't think he should be kept on.

 

All pointless, though, apologies.

 

Purely hypothetical, but say were to drift for a while, drawing too many games as we are, then suddenly it all falls into place and we win five of our last half dozen games, but we go down by a point or two. Would you still want him binned?

 

If we go down, I think how we go down will play a big part in his future.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by The Prophet

[Happinesstan]

1 hour ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

I'm not sure about that, in hindsight we had a tough start.

 

West Ham H 2-4, have turned out to be top 4 contenders, not an easy fixture.

Aston Villa A 0-2, an away match against a better side than us, not an easy fixture.

Southampton H 2-2, expected to be relegation fodder but are a solid mid-table team, not as easy a fixture as it seemed.

Man U A 1-4, not an easy fixture.

Leeds H 1-1, one we'd probably expect to win, maybe could be described as an easy fixture.

Watford A 1-1, maybe could be described as an easy fixture, but it is away.

Wolves A 1-2, a top half team away, not an easy fixture.

Tottenham H 2-3, not an easy fixture.

 

5 definitely not easy fixtures and 3 debatables.

 

Brentford H 3-3, playing a team at home that had just lost to Norwich and Burnley, easy fixture.

Arsenal A 0-2, not an easy fixture.

Norwich H 1-1, easy fixture.

Burnley H 1-0, easy fixture.

Leicester A 0-4, not an easy fixture, but probably easiest we're going to get away against a top half team.

Liverpool A 1-3, not an easy fixture

Man City H 0-4, not an easy fixture

Man U H 1-1, not an easy fixture

Watford H 1-1, easy fixture

 

5 definitely not easy fixtures and 4 definitely easy fixtures. 

 

 

 

 

We are possibly the worst team in the division so any start would be tricky.

[The Prophet]

1 hour ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

I'm not sure about that, in hindsight we had a tough start.

 

West Ham H 2-4, have turned out to be top 4 contenders, not an easy fixture.

Aston Villa A 0-2, an away match against a better side than us, not an easy fixture.

Southampton H 2-2, expected to be relegation fodder but are a solid mid-table team, not as easy a fixture as it seemed.

Man U A 1-4, not an easy fixture.

Leeds H 1-1, one we'd probably expect to win, maybe could be described as an easy fixture.

Watford A 1-1, maybe could be described as an easy fixture, but it is away.

Wolves A 1-2, a top half team away, not an easy fixture.

Tottenham H 2-3, not an easy fixture.

 

5 definitely not easy fixtures and 3 debatables.

 

Brentford H 3-3, playing a team at home that had just lost to Norwich and Burnley, easy fixture.

Arsenal A 0-2, not an easy fixture.

Norwich H 1-1, easy fixture.

Burnley H 1-0, easy fixture.

Leicester A 0-4, not an easy fixture, but probably easiest we're going to get away against a top half team.

Liverpool A 1-3, not an easy fixture

Man City H 0-4, not an easy fixture

Man U H 1-1, not an easy fixture

Watford H 1-1, easy fixture

 

5 definitely not easy fixtures and 4 definitely easy fixtures. 

 

 

 

 

 

Leeds and Southampton at home and Watford away were very winnable fixtures.

[Jackie Broon]

9 minutes ago, jonny1403 said:

 

That's a weird way of categorising it given that you've equated matches against West Ham and Villa as the same difficulty as Liverpool and City . You also for some reason think Watford away, a pretty awful team, is debatable but Brentford, a far better team at home is definitely an easy game?

 

A much simpler analysis would be to flag that we had two top 6 teams in the first run and four plus Leicester in the second run.

 

So in your categorisation exactly which are "the easiest fixtures we could have hoped for" if you're not including the other bottom four teams at home in that?

[Jackie Broon]

12 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

Leeds and Southampton at home and Watford away were very winnable fixtures.

 

Yes, but so were Brentford, Norwich and Watford at home.

 

Again, what I was responding to was an assertion that the start to the season (specifically the first 10 but I've only included Bruce's) was "apart from 1 or 2 were the easiest fixtures we could have hoped for". That just doesn't line up with reality, the first 10 games were not significantly 'easier' than the following 10, if anything the following 10 have included more of the 'easier' fixtures.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Jackie Broon

[jonny1403]

12 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

So in your categorisation exactly which are "the easiest fixtures we could have hoped for" if you're not including the other bottom four teams at home in that?

 

No, you're right, technically the fixtures were not the easiest possible fixtures that could have been generated ffs 

 

The point was that they were certainly easier than the next ten, and I stand by that.

[andyc35i]

Regardless of the fixtures so far and who was managing the team, I think we should have at least 8 more points than we currently have. I mean some games really stick out to me where we should have taken three points. That stoppage time goal against Southampton (I know they were far better than us), all the easy chances we missed at Watford and the 88th minute equaliser against them at home, and the ASM open goal chance against Man Utd - I just don’t think we have had any real rub of the green this year. I guess we wasted it all last season 

[The Prophet]

1 minute ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

Yes, but so were Brentford, Norwich and Watford at home.

 

Again, what I was responding to was an assertion that the start to the season (specifically the first 10 but I've only included Bruce's) was "apart from 1 or 2 were the easiest fixtures we could have hoped for". That just doesn't line up with reality, the first 10 games were not significantly 'easier' than the following 10, if anything the following 10 have included more of the 'easier' fixtures.

 

 

 

 

Fair enough

 

No games are easy when you're chronically undercoached and fitness levels drop after the hour mark.

 

There's definitely no excuses for last weekend, but he'd been here for five minutes pre-Brentford and missed the match through COVID. Then Norwich we were down to ten after ten minutes, though you could argue its partially his fault for selecting Clark. He hasn't had much luck, that's for sure.

[Consortium of one]

What hurt us during that tough stretch was that the team collapsed late and we were losing 4-1 or 3-1 instead of 2-1.  Our goal differential ballooned.

[Jackie Broon]

 

14 minutes ago, jonny1403 said:

 

No, you're right, technically the fixtures were not the easiest possible fixtures that could have been generated ffs 

 

The point was that they were certainly easier than the next ten, and I stand by that.

 

They just weren't. The average current league position on the first 10 teams we played = 9.5, the next 10 = 10.4

First 10 - 5 home 5 away, next 10 - 6 home 4 away.

First 10 - 3 games against current top 6, next 10 3 games against current top 6.

 

Ok, we have undeniably had are two most difficult fixtures so far back to back in the latter 10, but then we've also had the three easiest. 

 

By every objective measure there's either very little difference between the sets of fixtures, or that the latter set were a bit easier. 

 

I'm sure you will stick to saying that there were "certainly easier", that's how the internet debates go, and I accept it's really a subjective thing, but I can't see anything to objectively back up what you are saying.

 

 

[Guest HTT II]

There is no guarantee even Rafa would keep us up, the issue with Howe’s results is that we aren’t winning any really, and although draws are better than losses, we need wins. Rafa would be similar, more draws than wins with this current team. We have to let Howe ride the season out and if we do go down which I think is guaranteed, he then needs at least half a season in the Championship. I think Howe would take this current team up from the Championship. Rafa is over, we need to get over it too. 

[Happinesstan]

11 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

 

They just weren't. The average current league position on the first 10 teams we played = 9.5, the next 10 = 10.4

First 10 - 5 home 5 away, next 10 - 6 home 4 away.

First 10 - 3 games against current top 6, next 10 3 games against current top 6.

 

Ok, we have undeniably had are two most difficult fixtures so far back to back in the latter 10, but then we've also had the three easiest. 

 

By every objective measure there's either very little difference between the sets of fixtures, or that the latter set were a bit easier. 

 

I'm sure you will stick to saying that there were "certainly easier", that's how the internet debates go, and I accept it's really a subjective thing, but I can't see anything to objectively back up what you are saying.

 

 

Is it not more relevant where those teams were at the time we played them? A lot of those teams have climbed the table after playing us [obviously the three points we gifted them helped]

[Guest HTT II]

2 minutes ago, POOT 2.0 said:

I was admittedly (at the time) gutted with Howe. But from his first press conference...I was sold. I love the idea of a healthy NUFC playing under his ethos. It could be very exciting and his first game seemed to hint at it. 

 

But to deny he hasn't struggled is daft. He's had an unimpressive effect on the team as a whole. Although, Joelinton has been a cracking distraction. 

 

However, I'll remain behind him until the end of the season and see where we are. Changing now would be suicide.

 

As a side note...I'm getting increasingly irritated at the club and HW constantly asking for our support. Our support has been there at very high levels during very low points. Feels like they're not listening. They have our support...now we need their effort. 

Probably where I stand, although I was happy enough with Howe given the contenders or lack of. The Improvements I’ve seen is in the fitness, but that should be expected, we try to work the ball more and we are more of a goal threat, but it’s all marginal from the football under Bruce. I know he’s a methods man like Rafa, so it will take longer for him to have a real impact and for the team to start clicking, but we need that to happen ASAP now and although the lack of quality and options isn’t helping, sometimes you’ve got to be pragmatic and just play a certain way that fits what you have to play with until you can get new additions in. 

[Jackie Broon]

2 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Is it not more relevant where those teams were at the time we played them? A lot of those teams have climbed the table after playing us [obviously the three points we gifted them helped]

 

If you want to work that one out, be my guest.

[Happinesstan]

19 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

If you want to work that one out, be my guest.

West Ham was 1st game so all twenty teams were tied. On zero points. No telling where WHam were.

Villa were on zero points similar to ourselves but a tighter goal difference would lead me to believe they are in a similar position, now to what they were at the time.

Southampton had 1 point and were probably worse than they are now.

Man U is Man U.

Leeds were probably about the same

Watford may have been a bit better

Wolvs are 8th and came with 6 points so probably 10-12th

Spurs are currently 5th but we believed they were beatable at the time.

 

Can't work it out without relevant data but at a guess I'd say that brings the average positions down [or should that be up?] a little.

My main point is that it's not really a reliable metric by which to make such judgements, which I thought you yourself were alluding to.

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Happinesstan

[jonny1403]

49 minutes ago, Jackie Broon said:

 

 

They just weren't. The average current league position on the first 10 teams we played = 9.5, the next 10 = 10.4

First 10 - 5 home 5 away, next 10 - 6 home 4 away.

First 10 - 3 games against current top 6, next 10 3 games against current top 6.

 

Ok, we have undeniably had are two most difficult fixtures so far back to back in the latter 10, but then we've also had the three easiest. 

 

By every objective measure there's either very little difference between the sets of fixtures, or that the latter set were a bit easier. 

 

I'm sure you will stick to saying that there were "certainly easier", that's how the internet debates go, and I accept it's really a subjective thing, but I can't see anything to objectively back up what you are saying.

 

 

 

As people have already mentioned to you, it's absolutely pointless looking at their current league position now, given that the likes of Wolves and Villa are completely different teams now (and currently much higher up the leage) to what they were when we played them. To be honest I still don't know why you are trying to apply this metric when it's obviously a pretty worthless exercise.

 

The objective fact is that we have played 6 of last season's top 8 under Howe, and 2 under Bruce. 

[Happinesstan]

Just now, jonny1403 said:

 

As people have already mentioned to you, it's absolutely pointless looking at their current league position now, given that the likes of Wolves and Villa are completely different teams now (and currently much higher up the leage) to what they were when we played them. To be honest I still don't know why you are trying to apply this metric when it's obviously a pretty worthless exercise.

 

The objective fact is that we have played 6 of last season's top 8 under Howe, and 2 under Bruce. 

They are also different teams to the ones that finished top 6 last year. The only objective fact is that this debate has no objective facts.

[TRon]

2 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

They are also different teams to the ones that finished top 6 last year. The only objective fact is that this debate has no objective facts.

 

It's a pretty pointless debate tbh, why do you need metrics to determine we aren't that good? Is it going to make Bruce any better in hindsight? Is it going to mean Howe must be rubbish based on his results after 10 games?