Kanj Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, The College Dropout said: You don't think Ancelotti, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte, Simeone - managers that have won multiple league titles and other Cups aren't world class? Below that you have your De Zerbi's, Xabi Alonso's who seem destined to get an opportunity at one of the mega clubs sooner or later. Alonso might even do the Rafa, Mourinho, Simeone & Klopp thing of winning major titles against the establishment. Eden Terzíc of Dortmund deserves to be in that De Zerbi and Xabi Alonso grouping imho. Absolutely brilliant manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: I don’t agree. People in football are stupid but not that stupid. This is funny. It is about opinions but I don’t think the club would have too much trouble painting a picture that a winger in his late 20’s who got in to double figures for a team that qualified for the Champions League would be overpriced at £30 million. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: Do you think Al-Ahli came bidding for ASM or do you think it was orchestrated? I have no idea, and neither do you. Let's stick to what happened, which is nobody bidded £30m Almiron. Edited January 3 by hakka Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 I've been one of Almiron's biggest critics but I don't think there's enough value in selling him. (1) I think we would struggle for a buyer over £10m. I think we could just about justify £10m from Saudi. He doesn't have the track record of Chris Wood nor is there another Forest around. Financially there's just not much to gain. (2) I think whoever replaces him, needs to watch him play the role as a Newcastle player. Just to learn what he should aim for off the ball. We could have a new signing, Almiron & Minteh in the squad. I believe Minteh won't need to be registered anyway. With 2 senior players ahead of him, we can introduce him gently without masses of pressure for a season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cf Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 5 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: You don't think Ancelotti, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte, Simeone - managers that have won multiple league titles and other Cups aren't world class? Below that you have your De Zerbi's, Xabi Alonso's who seem destined to get an opportunity at one of the mega clubs sooner or later. Alonso might even do the Rafa, Mourinho, Simeone & Klopp thing of winning major titles against the establishment. Yeah you can probably throw them in too. But then take a look at Conte he hardly set the world on fire at Spurs recently when he didn't have the elite squad. Not trying to pick a fight I just don't find people saying "Eddie howe isn't elite because he's not won anything" very helpful because I think it's more nuanced than that. If Howe isn't world class like everyone else in that list would we therefore have expected all of them to achieve what Howe did in his first two seasons? I'm not sure I would. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, hakka said: I have no idea, and neither do you. Let's stick to what happened, which is nobody bidded £30m Almiron. There is a reason why clubs raised concerns with the FA about the transfer, as it was possible that it could happen and why no other club was interested in ASM. Just because this doesn’t fit in with your narrative doesn’t mean you can just shut the conversation down. If you don’t like it then don’t reply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collage Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 22 minutes ago, The Prophet said: @TBG Last paragraph, it's finally getting traction... Is he suggesting that we signed Milan and Champions League player Sandro Tonali believing he’s a ”sitting 6” and then went ”oops” when he turned out to be something else? That’s almost as funny as the last paragraph. Edited January 3 by Collage Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: I've been one of Almiron's biggest critics but I don't think there's enough value in selling him. (1) I think we would struggle for a buyer over £10m. I think we could just about justify £10m from Saudi. He doesn't have the track record of Chris Wood nor is there another Forest around. Financially there's just not much to gain. (2) I think whoever replaces him, needs to watch him play the role as a Newcastle player. Just to learn what he should aim for off the ball. We could have a new signing, Almiron & Minteh in the squad. I believe Minteh won't need to be registered anyway. With 2 senior players ahead of him, we can introduce him gently without masses of pressure for a season. There is a big difference between selling him now than in the summer though, hence why we have missed the boat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GEFAFWISP Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Clueless conspiracy nonce at it again. Hi Craig ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just now, Cf said: Yeah you can probably throw them in too. But then take a look at Conte he hardly set the world on fire at Spurs recently when he didn't have the elite squad. Not trying to pick a fight I just don't find people saying "Eddie howe isn't elite because he's not won anything" very helpful because I think it's more nuanced than that. If Howe isn't world class like everyone else in that list would we therefore have expected all of them to achieve what Howe did in his first two seasons? I'm not sure I would. Conte has also won league titles with 3 different clubs relatively recently. Even at Spurs, he qualified for CL when most thought he couldn't. And the form over his first 12 months was excellent. When he realised they couldn't win the league - he tried to get himself fired. I don't think Pep Guardiola could get as many promotions into the PL as Steve Bruce. Genuinely I don't. That's a national job for a national-level manager. You judge elite performances, at the elite level IMO. I agree - most of them couldn't do what Eddie has done for us. But you become world-class at a world-class level, not the level below IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cf Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 minute ago, The College Dropout said: Conte has also won league titles with 3 different clubs relatively recently. Even at Spurs, he qualified for CL when most thought he couldn't. And the form over his first 12 months was excellent. When he realised they couldn't win the league - he tried to get himself fired. I don't think Pep Guardiola could get as many promotions into the PL as Steve Bruce. Genuinely I don't. That's a national job for a national-level manager. You judge elite performances, at the elite level IMO. I agree - most of them couldn't do what Eddie has done for us. But you become world-class at a world-class level, not the level below IMO. Yeah that's fair. But I can't help but feel there's a certain element of it's not hard to be world class at a world class club. You can obviously fail at that level. But at the same time I suspect there's plenty of managers who'd be just as good as the ones you mention if given a chance. Eddie will get his chance here over the next few years if appropriately supported. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 4 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: There is a reason why clubs raised concerns with the FA about the transfer, as it was possible that it could happen and why no other club was interested in ASM. Just because this doesn’t fit in with your narrative doesn’t mean you can just shut the conversation down. If you don’t like it then don’t reply. I just want to deal in reality and facts my friend. I could sit here telling you about how if PSG could have bought Wilson for £50m and how we could have used that in some clever FFP manner, but they didn't happen, so it's all a bit silly. We have no idea at the extent of whether our owners forced ASM sale or not, or whether they were stupid not to buy Almiron or any of our deadwood in fact for a handsome fee we wouldn't normally get, but it never happened so it can't form a key part of a debate that we should of used money from a sale that wasn't on the cards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just now, hakka said: I just want to deal in reality and facts my friend. I could sit here telling you about how if PSG could have bought Wilson for £50m and how we could have used that in some clever FFP manner, but they didn't happen, so it's all a bit silly. We have no idea at the extent of whether our owners forced ASM sale or not, or whether they were stupid not to buy Almiron or any of our deadwood in fact for a handsome fee we wouldn't normally get, but it never happened so it can't form a key part of a debate that we should of used money from a sale that wasn't on the cards. PSG are not owned by the same owners as we are though so it isn’t a comparable situation, which you already know. Again, there is a reason clubs were complaining to the FA about us regarding the ASM deal as reported in the Athletic, as there is a clear conflict and the ability to manipulate transfers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Just now, Matt1892 said: PSG are not owned by the same owners as we are though so it isn’t a comparable situation, which you already know. Again, there is a reason clubs were complaining to the FA about us regarding the ASM deal as reported in the Athletic, as there is a clear conflict and the ability to manipulate transfers. They are both situations that never happened, hence why I see equivolance and pointlessness in using them to discuss possible FFP stuff. I get you fully believe the ASM sale was dodgy and our owners dictating one club over there buy our player to help us, but I don't believe that is the case. Nor do I perceive it as a mistake or even an option by our owners to force a Saudi club to buy Almiron in the way you described for our FFP benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 11 minutes ago, hakka said: They are both situations that never happened, hence why I see equivolance and pointlessness in using them to discuss possible FFP stuff. I get you fully believe the ASM sale was dodgy and our owners dictating one club over there buy our player to help us, but I don't believe that is the case. Nor do I perceive it as a mistake or even an option by our owners to force a Saudi club to buy Almiron in the way you described for our FFP benefit. One is a situation that could potentially happen which is why other clubs complained to the FA about it, whereas the other could potentially happen but would be no cause for complaint as neither party is linked. The same way that a vote was held to try and stop clubs loaning players in from other clubs with the same owner, it is seen as an advantage and something that could be done. We don’t know if either will happen or not but it isn’t beyond belief that it could happen, that isn’t just me believing it but other clubs too, hence why complaints and a vote took place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Cf said: Yeah that's fair. But I can't help but feel there's a certain element of it's not hard to be world class at a world class club. You can obviously fail at that level. But at the same time I suspect there's plenty of managers who'd be just as good as the ones you mention if given a chance. Eddie will get his chance here over the next few years if appropriately supported. How come so many managers fail then? Edit: at the highest level I think respect is hard earned and easily lost. And then the game moves on. Jose Mourinho is a top 10 manager of the last 30 years. Multiple successful jobs at the elite level. Yet he’s firmly outside the elite now. Can only get a job at a non-elite Serie A club. Benitez done at the top level. Only lasted 4 months at his last elite gig. Edited January 3 by The College Dropout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjohnson Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: How come so many managers fail then? Exactly this....plenty of world class managers fail at world class clubs. Has to be the right time and fit for both. Man U are a great example of this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 30 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: One is a situation that could potentially happen which is why other clubs complained to the FA about it, whereas the other could potentially happen but would be no cause for complaint as neither party is linked. The same way that a vote was held to try and stop clubs loaning players in from other clubs with the same owner, it is seen as an advantage and something that could be done. We don’t know if either will happen or not but it isn’t beyond belief that it could happen, that isn’t just me believing it but other clubs too, hence why complaints and a vote took place. Either way, PSG didn't bid for Wilson and no Saudi club bid for Almiron so maybe move on from FFP fantasy discussions and criticisms of things that never did happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee_Johnny Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, thomas said: I love him dearly and he’s really good but if Eddie is considered world class then the label has lost all meaning. Take your point if you equate world class with achievements to date. Clubs served, trophies won. If someone is expressing an opinion that Eddie Howe has an absolutely top drawer range of leadership and tactical attributes which put in him the upper echelons of football managers, regardless of country/league, then I think saying ‘he is world class’ is decent shorthand. Edited January 3 by Coffee_Johnny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Butcher Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomson Mouse Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 I’m just embarrassed that the club has felt the need to come out with that statement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 1 hour ago, The College Dropout said: You don't think Ancelotti, Klopp, Tuchel, Conte, Simeone - managers that have won multiple league titles and other Cups aren't world class? Below that you have your De Zerbi's, Xabi Alonso's who seem destined to get an opportunity at one of the mega clubs sooner or later. Alonso might even do the Rafa, Mourinho, Simeone & Klopp thing of winning major titles against the establishment. They might be world class managers, but we don't have a world class team yet, and might not do for another 3 years unless FFP is challenged and removed. But the real point is we don't know if Howe is that world class manager elect. What if he had a world class team instead of just 3-4 genuine stars? Doesn't he deserve the chance to show what he can do? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 3 minutes ago, TRon said: They might be world class managers, but we don't have a world class team yet, and might not do for another 3 years unless FFP is challenged and removed. But the real point is we don't know if Howe is that world class manager elect. What if he had a world class team instead of just 3-4 genuine stars? Doesn't he deserve the chance to show what he can do? All I was objecting to was labeling him world class right now. He could very well go on to be such, at which point my opinion will change and everyone can tell me “we told you so!” It was not a judgement on whether or not we should keep/sack him Edited January 3 by thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Villa are over performing by a ridiculous margin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Justice is the wrong way to look at Xg imo. Better quality players overperform Xg and vice versa. Team with best Goalie over performs Xga is not a shocker. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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