Eddie Howe

[Jagten]

1 hour ago, timeEd32 said:

...

 

I'm not trying to discount what they did - it's obviously excellent (though also not perfect) - but I don't really look at that and see a process that makes me feel like we're missing some big trick. If that's a blueprint worth following then I'd argue we've followed a couple of the core tenets.

Benteke was a Rodgers buy. The transfer committee, and Iain Graham's influence, grew significantly in the summer of 2016, which is why I mention that period specifically. They built, for a time, the best team on the planet, without spending best-team-on-the-planet money. Circa 80m for Mane and Salah was obscene. Any team would be do well to replicate their success from that period.

 

I disagree with your characterization of their process: it was data-led value, which correlated with, but does not explicitly target, distressed sellers - and a process that Klopp often disagreed with (e.g., it is reported he wanted Brandt over Salah). I have no specific thoughts on our current process, other than I wish we had better data people. I only hope we did not see Ashworth leaving as an opportunity to concentrate our bet on Howe's coaching and talent spotting abilities. He of course should have an important role. I think Howe is mostly quite good at recruitment and better than his critics think. 

[Pata]

I honestly can't believe so many people simply refuse to acknowledge the context of this season. Howe has been forced to use his 5th and 7th choice CMs (who both prefer right side) alongside Bruno for ages now and on current form it's very kind to place Longstaff even above Anderson. Miley will be good but he's not an asset as a 17-year-old when you are fighting in the CL and hoping for a top 4 finish. He hasn't had a fully fit striker for ages and absolutely no chance of having two fit strikers to do any rotation. Regressing Almiron and Gordon have been the only available wingers for ages and he's been forced to use Gordon as a striker at times. Gordon, Schär and Bruno have played way too much football this season but they have done admirably well. He lost Pope who is crucial to how we play as Dubravka simply can't replace his sweeping which helped our slow backline. Lascelles played full 90 in five CL games (2x PSG, 2x Dortmund, Milan) and started twelve league games in a row (and did better than anyone could have expected to be fair). There was a spell when his most reliable player (Trippier) was costing us game after game. Botman has been uncharacteristically bad after coming back from injury and Burn has been the scapegoat for some results, sometimes fairly and sometimes unfairly IMO.

 

Yet somehow we are still fighting for European places in the league, didn't get embarrassed in the CL, had a great League Cup run that should've been another final appearance and we are still in the FA Cup. It genuinely amazes me that we are still fifth in expected points in the league close to Villa who are fourth and ahead of Tottenham, Man United, Chelsea, Brighton and West Ham. Howe hasn't been perfect, he probably should've rotated a bit more early in the season in preparation for the massive fixture congestion when most were fit but it was his first season with the extra games and many of the injuries have been simply freak injuries that couldn't have been prevented. In the end he was dealt an impossible hand, starting from losing his biggest acquisition for the season before it had barely even started.

 

No manager would've been able to do a better job considering everything he's faced this season and it genuinely saddens me how so many of our fans lack any patience and have so quickly forgotten how fucking amazing manager he has been for us. He needs to get a clean slate for next season without any inside or outside pressure and hopefully we can strengthen some key areas, get more depth and do some wise selling. It's impossible for injuries to be this bad next season.

 

 

Edited February 27 by Pata

[KaKa]

4 hours ago, High Five o said:

I agree, and I am happy with the transfers so far and I am really happy with Howe as a manager. But clearly it has been a team effort where DOF  and our scouting team have been having their say. 
 

Howe to my eyes has, as I mentioned in my original post a preference of PL experience. I just hope now that we are without a DOF we keep on our current path and not shift to an even more PL focused approach.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People 'feel' like Howe is mainly after Prem players because they over react to any links to the likes of McTominay and Gallagher and don't give the same level of credence to the likes of Kephrem Thuram, Manu Kone, Emerson, Koopmeiners, Wirtz, Amadou Diarra, Youssouf Fofana and other similar midfielders abroad we have been linked to continuously.

 

This narrative is mainly due to this state of panic over players that people have decided are 'shit'. Similar to the panic over the Gordon signing who was deemed 'shit' at the time.

 

 

Edited February 26 by KaKa

[timeEd32]

1 minute ago, Jagten said:

Benteke was a Rodgers buy. The transfer committee, and Iain Graham's influence, grew significantly in the summer of 2016, which is why I mention that period specifically. They built, for a time, the best team on the planet, without spending best-team-on-the-planet money. Circa 80m for Mane and Salah was obscene. Any team would be do well to replicate their success from that period.

 

I disagree with your characterization of their process: it was data-led value, which correlated with, but does not explicitly target, distressed sellers - and a process that Klopp often disagreed with (e.g., it is reported he wanted Brandt over Salah). I have no specific thoughts on our current process, other than I wish we had better data people. I only hope we did not see Ashworth leaving as an opportunity to concentrate our bet on Howe's coaching and talent spotting abilities. He of course should have an important role. I think Howe is mostly quite good at recruitment and better than his critics think. 

That’s fair and I agree. I’d love us to take this opportunity to combine a data led DoF with Howe’s abilities. I think the result, if they blended well, could be outstanding.

But whether it’s data, old school scouting, or astrology signs it’s hard for me to say we strayed too far from a big part of Liverpool’s approach with the following: Trippier (value, experience), Bruno (value, elite), Pope (value, distressed, experience) Botman (value, potential), Isak (distressed, elite), Gordon (distressed, value), and Tino (distressed, potential). (I’d include Barnes but someone will likely nitpick.)

 

The problems are our starting point, our revenue, and lack of salable assets, which leaves us with zero wiggle room, remaining gaps, and greatly magnifies any miss.

[Interpolic]

18 minutes ago, Pata said:

I honestly can't believe so many people simply refuse to acknowledge the context of this season. Howe has been forced to use his 5th and 7th choice CMs (who both prefer right side) alongside Bruno for ages now and on current form it's very kind to place Longstaff even above Anderson. Miley will be good but he's not an asset as a 17-year-old when you are fighting in the CL and hoping for a top 4 finish. He hasn't had a fully fit striker for ages and absolutely no chance of having two fit strikers to do any rotation. Regressing Almiron and Gordon have been the only available wingers for ages and he's been forced to use Gordon as a striker at times. Gordon has played way too much football this season but has done admirably well. He lost Pope who was crucial to how we played and Dubravka simply can't replace his sweeping which helped our slow backline. There was a spell when his most reliable player (Trippier) was costing us game after game. Botman has been uncharacteristically bad after coming back from injury and Burn has been the scapegoat for some results, sometimes fairly and sometimes unfairly IMO.

 

Yet somehow we are still fighting for European places in the league, didn't get embarrassed in the CL, had a great League Cup run that should've been another final appearance and we are still in the FA Cup. It genuinely amazes me that we are still fifth in expected points in the league, ahead of Tottenham, Man United, Chelsea, Brighton and West Ham. Howe hasn't been perfect, he probably should've rotated a bit more early in the season in preparation for the massive fixture congestion when most were fit but it was his first season with the extra games and many of the injuries have been simply freak injuries that couldn't have been prevented. In the end he was dealt an impossible hand, starting from losing his biggest acquisition for the season before it had barely even started.

 

No manager would've have been able to do a better job considering everything he's faced this season and it genuinely saddens me how so many of our fans lack any patience and have so quickly forgotten how fucking amazing manager he has been for us. He needs to get a clean slate for next season without any inside or outside pressure and hopefully we can strengthen some key areas, get more depth and do some wise selling. It's impossible for injuries to be this bad next season.

 

 

 

 

Hear, hear. Some absolute drama queen knackers in this thread who are desperate for us to become a soap opera club once again.

 

Some of the criticism is fair but loads of it is OTT and wilfully ignorant of the insane circumstances we've had to navigate. Just really disappointing as you say, especially when you hear it starting to develop in the ground as well. 

 

Hopefully we can get our swagger back a bit and find our way to the end of this wretched season then onwards and upwards next year, but some fans sure as fuck don't deserve it. 

[cubaricho]

26 minutes ago, Pata said:

I honestly can't believe so many people simply refuse to acknowledge the context of this season. Howe has been forced to use his 5th and 7th choice CMs (who both prefer right side) alongside Bruno for ages now and on current form it's very kind to place Longstaff even above Anderson. Miley will be good but he's not an asset as a 17-year-old when you are fighting in the CL and hoping for a top 4 finish. He hasn't had a fully fit striker for ages and absolutely no chance of having two fit strikers to do any rotation. Regressing Almiron and Gordon have been the only available wingers for ages and he's been forced to use Gordon as a striker at times. Gordon has played way too much football this season but has done admirably well. He lost Pope who was crucial to how we played and Dubravka simply can't replace his sweeping which helped our slow backline. There was a spell when his most reliable player (Trippier) was costing us game after game. Botman has been uncharacteristically bad after coming back from injury and Burn has been the scapegoat for some results, sometimes fairly and sometimes unfairly IMO.

 

Yet somehow we are still fighting for European places in the league, didn't get embarrassed in the CL, had a great League Cup run that should've been another final appearance and we are still in the FA Cup. It genuinely amazes me that we are still fifth in expected points in the league, ahead of Tottenham, Man United, Chelsea, Brighton and West Ham. Howe hasn't been perfect, he probably should've rotated a bit more early in the season in preparation for the massive fixture congestion when most were fit but it was his first season with the extra games and many of the injuries have been simply freak injuries that couldn't have been prevented. In the end he was dealt an impossible hand, starting from losing his biggest acquisition for the season before it had barely even started.

 

No manager would've have been able to do a better job considering everything he's faced this season and it genuinely saddens me how so many of our fans lack any patience and have so quickly forgotten how fucking amazing manager he has been for us. He needs to get a clean slate for next season without any inside or outside pressure and hopefully we can strengthen some key areas, get more depth and do some wise selling. It's impossible for injuries to be this bad next season.

 

 

 

Well said dude.  

[timeEd32]

I saw someone on a social platform share an “Eddie in or out?” question.

 

I tallied every reply:

 

- 46 in (most scoffing at the fact it’s being asked)

- 1 out

- 1 undecided

 

Small sample, but I expected worse honestly. Happy to see that.

[Pata]

3 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

I saw someone on a social platform share an “Eddie in or out?” question.

 

I tallied every reply:

 

- 46 in (most scoffing at the fact it’s being asked)

- 1 out

- 1 undecided

 

Small sample, but I expected worse honestly. Happy to see that.

 

That's fucking amazing to read and makes me happy.

[nufc123]

1 hour ago, Pata said:

 

Why not though? 

 

I can't believe what I've been reading post-Arsenal in this thread, luckily did the reading today so wasn't going to bite. I'm embarrassed and praying fans of other clubs don't read this thread. Fair play to especially Hans (and many others) who showed we have some sensible fans too.

Nah the fuck off, and go support someone else can go in the bin. Im not in the Howe out, and maybe my reaction was wrong. I have not read all the last pages either.

[RS]

Loads of discussion about Howe in multiple threads. Why not have a poll on who wants him in place for the long term and who wants him replaced with the bestest managers in the world (potentially having more than 1 manager as well)?
 

I want him here for the long run. Ferguson/Wenger levels of service. 

 

 

Edited February 27 by RS

[High Five o]

8 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

People 'feel' like Howe is mainly after Prem players because they over react to any links to the likes of McTominay and Gallagher and don't give the same level of credence to the likes of Kephrem Thuram, Manu Kone, Emerson, Koopmeiners, Wirtz, Amadou Diarra, Youssouf Fofana and other similar midfielders abroad we have been linked to continuously.

 

This narrative is mainly due to this state of panic over players that people have decided are 'shit'. Similar to the panic over the Gordon signing who was deemed 'shit' at the time.

 

 

 

I think many people “feel” that Nickerson etc are pushing for many of the signings abroad, and Howe wants more of the safe PL options. It might be a wrong assumption but since this is a forum people should be able to vent their thoughts. 
 

Some obviously take this as criticism of Howe, while it’s not. Most want a balance approach. 
 

Honestly do not remember any panic re Gordon, some where very happy, myself included and some where skeptical, but I think that is a fair representation of normal football fans.

[KaKa]

6 minutes ago, High Five o said:

I think many people “feel” that Nickerson etc are pushing for many of the signings abroad, and Howe wants more of the safe PL options. It might be a wrong assumption but since this is a forum people should be able to vent their thoughts. 
 

Some obviously take this as criticism of Howe, while it’s not. Most want a balance approach. 
 

Honestly do not remember any panic re Gordon, some where very happy, myself included and some where skeptical, but I think that is a fair representation of normal football fans.

 

Well it is a wrong assumption because it isn't based on anything tangible, and so it's pretty strange to be honest.

 

After signing Bruno, Isak, Botman and Tonali, Howe went into detail on these players and how highly he rated their abilities as prospects.

 

It in no way sounds like these are players he needed convincing on. This whole thing is so weird.

 

Oh, and maybe go back and read the Gordon thread back once we went in for him. It's all in there.

 

 

Edited February 27 by KaKa

[High Five o]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

Well it is a wrong assumption because it isn't based on anything tangible, and so it's pretty strange to be honest.

 

After signing Bruno, Isak, Botman and Tonali, Howe went into detail on these players and how highly he rated their abilities as prospects.

 

It in no way sounds like these are players he needed convincing on. This whole thing is so weird.

 

I appreciate your opinion.

Let’s see how it plays out.

[STM]

2 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Well it is a wrong assumption because it isn't based on anything tangible, and so it's pretty strange to be honest.

 

After signing Bruno, Isak, Botman and Tonali, Howe went into detail on these players and how highly he rated their abilities as prospects.

 

It in no way sounds like these are players he needed convincing on. This whole thing is so weird.

Totally agree, you can also add Trippier in there (because it the argument wasnt about nationality apparently).... and more over, our domestic signings have been pretty solid too.

 

Gordon is our player of the season. Livramento looks an unbelievable talent.

 

I do take people arguments about saying we could have prioritised other positions, that's a fair one.

[sushimonster85]

Apologies if this has come up already, but with Liverpool winning the League Cup (and definitely getting CL through the league), does that mean so long as the PL ends up getting the extra CL spot that the Conference League spot will go to 8th rather than 7th like it has done these past couple years?

[Smal]

[Menace]

11 hours ago, timeEd32 said:

 

Let's look at that (going to start in 2015 since Edwards was technical director then and it includes a key signing):

 

(Sold Suarez in 2014 for big money)

 

2015

Benteke - big fee for a PL striker

Firmino - big fee for a 23 year old from Germany off one good season

Clyne - moderate fee from PL

Milner - free transfer; £140k/wk

Other signings: Ings, Gomez, Awoniyi, 

 

Sold: Sterling for one of the biggest fees ever at that point

 

2016

Mane - Big fee for a player who spent two years at a smaller PL club

Wijnaldum - Big fee for one of the best players at a relegated club

Matip - Free transfer; £100k/wk

 

Sold: Benteke, recouping 75% of the fee, and good fees for Ibe and Allen

 

2017

van Dijk - Record fee for a proven PL defender

Salah - Club record fee (until van Dijk later that summer)

Robertson - PL experience from a relegated club

Other signings: Big money on Oxlade-Chamberlain, Solanke on a U21 free

 

Sold: Coutinho for a British record fee; Sakho for big money

 

2018

Alisson - Most expensive GK of all time

Keita - Massive fee

Fabinho - Big fee

Other signings: Shaqiri

 

Sold: Solanke and Danny Ward for decent money

 

2019

Basically nothing

 

Sold: Made a decent profit on Ings

 

2020

Jota - Big fee for a PL player

Thiago - 29 year old from Bayern

Tsimikas - Cheap

 

Sold: Lovren for not much

 

2021

Diaz - Big fee

Konate - Decent fee

 

Sold: Harry Wilson and Awoniyi for cheap (which doesn't look great at the moment)

 

---------------------------

Their early business shares two characteristics that ours has:

• Premier League experience √
• Targeting relegated players √

They did dabble in the free transfer market, but should be noted that the wages (particularly Milner) were significant.

 

They made a big mistake (Benteke), but were able to get out of it by recouping most of their money a year later.

 

What they had, that we haven't had a chance of having, is massive money coming in every summer. Suarez > Sterling > Benteke redo > Coutinho. This allowed them to break their transfer fee record (and world records) multiple times for the likes of Salah, van Dijk, and Alisson (and they got them all right). 

 

I'm not trying to discount what they did - it's obviously excellent (though also not perfect) - but I don't really look at that and see a process that makes me feel like we're missing some big trick. If that's a blueprint worth following then I'd argue we've followed a couple of the core tenets.

 

That's a crazy hit rate tbf. Would love Edwards here although I don't expect it to happen.

[Matt1892]

58 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Well it is a wrong assumption because it isn't based on anything tangible, and so it's pretty strange to be honest.

 

After signing Bruno, Isak, Botman and Tonali, Howe went into detail on these players and how highly he rated their abilities as prospects.

 

It in no way sounds like these are players he needed convincing on. This whole thing is so weird.

 

Oh, and maybe go back and read the Gordon thread back once we went in for him. It's all in there.

 

 

 

A manager can prefer players with Premier League experience and still sign players who have never played here. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.

 

There is also no issue with the above.

[gbandit]

20 minutes ago, Smal said:

That’s a brutal image for us like

[Yorkie]

The Liverpool game sends it sky high but we'd still be comfortably bottom even if that game had a more typical xGa. 

 

It's an incredibly damning graphic, has to be said. Defensively we're an absolute disaster atm. 

[Shadow Puppets]

I maintain it is ALL down to the midfield not functioning properly at all without the legs of Joelinton and Willock.

[The Prophet]

7 minutes ago, Shadow Puppets said:

I maintain it is ALL down to the midfield not functioning properly at all without the legs of Joelinton and Willock.

 

I agree, the defenders are struggling due to no confidence in their keeper and a lack of protection in front of them.

 

We've tried to tactically switch up the Bruno-Miley-Longstaff flat three, but it's not had too much success. Without a system overhaul, we can only really wait for injured players to return.

[The College Dropout]

57 minutes ago, Smal said:

I mentioned this last week I think. We are v. bad out of possession.

 

To make it better with current personnel we need significant changes to the system.

 

Even after the Liverpool game we've conceded 14 goals in 6 games. Not unlucky at all. This is the main reason I'm pessimistic of our chances of finishing 7th. You can't defend like this and pickup enough points for 7th. I don't see it changing unless Willock comes back and transforms the side and then we get Pope, Anderson and co. back in March sometime and we improve again. We've got the fixtures at least.

 

And it's why a lot of arguments on here are disingenuous. Someone was talking about "undefeated in 4 or 5" to suggest things aren't bad. We have been super bad out of possession for ages and if it continues we might finish in the bottom half.

 

 

Edited February 27 by The College Dropout

[Hanshithispantz]

Nobody has said things aren't bad 

 

We cannot defend because Howe relies on pressure to push the ball into non threatening areas. We cannot do that at the minute.

 

The fact we're still in games and have been able to string results together despite this is a possitive sign, and makes the calls for his job to be reviewed look silly, but it obviously doesn't mean we're a good side atm.

 

Cannot be arsed for another day of repeating obvious things like so will leave it here.

[TBG]

2 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Nobody has said things aren't bad 

 

We cannot defend because Howe relies on pressure to push the ball into non threatening areas. We cannot do that at the minute.

 

The fact we're still in games and have been able to string results together despite this is a possitive sign, and makes the calls for his job to be reviewed look silly, but it obviously doesn't mean we're a good side atm.

 

Cannot be arsed for another day of repeating obvious things like so will leave it here.

 

What are you your thoughts on Burn and Hall?